AMD's AM4 socket has been pictured

[System Error Message]

will the CPUs be backwards compatible with AM3 and AM3+? Because thats probably why they keep to the same format.

 

my friend lost 1 8 core piledriver because of the bent pin falling off. Pins are horrible for CPUs or motherboards. Infact i have 1 intel motherboard not working because the pins of the CPU socket are bent and i cant get it straight anymore, its a nightmare.

 

They need to use flat contacts for both board and CPU.

[mariushm]

1 minute ago, System Error Message said:

will the CPUs be backwards compatible with AM3 and AM3+? Because thats probably why they keep to the same format.

 

They need to use flat contacts for both board and CPU.

No, the processors aren't backwards compatible with AM3 or AM3+ . 

 

Socket AM4 has contacts for DDR4 memory (2 channels) and integrated graphics and all the contacts that a  minimal chipset would have (a few sata ports, a few usb 3 ports, a bunch of usb 2.0 ports and some other stuff) because this chipset is now built inside the processor and there's an optional pci express link (x4 or something like that) to which motherboard maker can attach an optional chipset with more sata,usb, pci-e lanes etc

To the best of my knowledge, the socket no longer supports DDR3 memory, so there won't be motherboards with mix of DDR3 and DDR4 slots.

[System Error Message]

So if its not backwards compatible they really need to ditch the pins on both CPU and motherboard. Flat contacts on both is the best.

[mariushm]

Good contact between processor and motherboard is critical. If both sides are flat, it would be enough for just one contact in the socket to be oxidized or dirty (or even accidentally have lint or a hair strand in the socket) to make the cpu sit at a slight angle and this could cause the contact between the processor and socket to be imperfect (a few contacts wouldn't be made).

The contacts in the LGA socket are spring like for this reason, and if you look very close to each contact, they have a sort of nibble in the center and some processors have a tiny hole right in the center of each pad where that nibble would center itself on. Each contact also flexes a bit when you put on cpu on top and that's how contact is guaranteed.

 

See https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Intel_CPU_Pentium_4_640_Prescott_bottom.jpg  to see those depressions in the cpu pads. I couldn't find a good picture with those nibbles on the contacts of the lga socket.

 

PGA sockets guarantee a better contact between pins and insides of the socket, from at least two sides, like i explained.

 

Also - and this wasn't mentioned that much - as lga sockets are often denser, it's sometimes more difficult to route all the traces from contacts in the socket to various parts of the motherboard. In some cases, motherboards have to be made with more layers, just so that the signal from a contact somewhere in the center of the socket could be routed towards the outside of the socket.

With PGA sockets, since the contacts are often more spread out, more than 1 trace can be routed between contacts in the socket so motherboards could potentially be made with fewer layers, which means motherboards can be made cheaper.  The difference between a 6 layer motherboard and a 8 layer motherboard circuit board could be as much as $10-30.

So by going with PGA socket, AMD may have also thought about keeping things simpler for manufacturers and keeping things backwards compatible. As far as I know, the socket makes possible to reuse the AM3 coolers as well, so cooler manufacturers don't need to do retooling, and things are kept cheap.

 

 

[NumLock21]

Wow 3 pages discussing about a socket. No surprise when we humans, had came with hundreds of pages to prove to why 1+1 = 2.

 

[Citadelen]

4 hours ago, NumLock21 said:

-snip-

No they don't, I just looked for the arrow on one of the corners on my CPU, and bam I know where to put it.

[MEC-777]

I just hope they move to a 4-point cooler mounting design like Intel and ditch the old 2-point clip design. 

[Citadelen]

2 minutes ago, MEC-777 said:

I just hope they move to a 4-point cooler mounting design like Intel and ditch the old 2-point clip design. 

My AIO is attached with four points...

[NumLock21]

Just now, Citadelen said:

No they don't, I just looked for the arrow on one of the corners on my CPU, and bam I know where to put it.

Not everyone will be as careful as you. In the past cpu boxes will say to be installed by a professional. Now they took it off, afraid they might cause butt hurt to those who are fragile.

 

[imreloadin]

1 hour ago, manikyath said:

i'd have guessed that with that stament it'd make sense i meant the people who put in and take out CPUs.

 

the thing is that it's much harder to mess up LGA than it is to mess up PGA. have you ever used noth of them? i encounter both every so often, and lga -if treated right- is pretty hard to mess up, but with PGA it's as simple as getting one of those pins caught behind something. as someone stated before it's only two seconds, but it is a very, very dangerous two seconds at that.

 

the only thing i can say as a plus for the ZIF connector they use on PGA is that it doesnt feel wrong to wrench it down in the same way as it does on LGA

It's easier to fix bent pins on a PGA CPU versus a LGA motherboard however. Just a simple movement of a credit/debut card is all it takes and then give it the good look over. The fact that LGA motherboard pin's lay at an angle makes them much more difficult to fix should something happen to them.

 

I've built several AMD and Intel systems and haven't had any problems with any except for a motherboard with bent pins that I bought off of eBay.

 

If you do something to a CPU that has enough force to actually break pins off of it then you'd most likely damage its LGA counterpart as well.

 

Also in regards to the "two very, very dangerous seconds" comment I mean come on, it's not like we're building computers in Syria or Iraq here...

[MEC-777]

1 minute ago, Citadelen said:

My AIO is attached with four points...

yeah, I know with some coolers you remove the bracket and use the 4 holes. I just think the stock cooler mounting bracket design takes up too much space on the mb to begin with. It works well enough, I'm just not a big fan of it is all.

[TetraSky]

So it really does still use PGA eh... I wonder why they still haven't moved to LGA for their desktop class CPU.

Then again, it is certainly easier to fix a bend pin on PGA than it is with LGA. Also easier to see that you have a bend pin.

[RatedBlam]

2 minutes ago, MEC-777 said:

yeah, I know with some coolers you remove the bracket and use the 4 holes. I just think the stock cooler mounting bracket design takes up too much space on the mb to begin with. It works well enough, I'm just not a big fan of it is all.

I'm not all that enthusiastic of intels stock cooler mounting either. 4 plastic pins that you push trough the mobo.

Remind of the horrible chinsy plastic rivets on cars

 

 

[brandishwar]

Much of the PGA vs LGA argument basically boils down to this: people can have momentary bouts of stupidity. That's one of the reasons much of how computer technology has developed is to make things as idiot-proof as possible. There is a limit, though.

 

I've been building systems since the 486-DX2. That was when the ZIF socket was young. Prior to the 486, you didn't have that. To get the processor out of the system, you had to use a "chip extractor" -- I think I still have mine somewhere that came with a toolkit my dad gave me all those years ago. You want to talk about the potential to bend pins... Without the ZIF, you had a much, much higher degree of probability since you had to set the processor correct before pressing it down. Press it down without making sure all the pins are lined up right and you'll bend them. The ZIF made that much easier -- set the processor, make sure it's seated properly, give it a small jiggle to double-check, then push down the retention arm.

 

So like many other aspects of building computers, the ZIF fell under the idea of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and "don't change the design unless someone has a legitimate complaint". The potential to bend pins is actually why Intel (and soon thereafter AMD) went to the cartridge processor -- the Pentium II and first Pentium IIIs -- before switching back to the ZIF with the exposed core because of heat. The dangers of that exposed core are why Intel and AMD started adding the IHS -- integrated heat spreader. The processor is more costly than the mainboard, as many learned through that telltale CRACK! that told you that you applied too much force in trying to attach your heatsink.

 

And now you're wanting to debate PGA vs LGA. I think a lot of people are only saying LGA is better simply because it's Intel's MO and not AMD's, and given the vast majority of this forum is comprised of people who would denounce anything AMD, it's no surprise. Neither is tangibly better. AMD has been able to produce high performing processors with the PGA, and Intel has been able to do the same with LGA.

 

The risk of bent pins is one that has long existed. The only thing LGA does is moves the risk from the CPU to the mainboard. And if the pins come to you from the manufacturer already bent, then that wasn't a problem with shipping, but with packing and handling. Only if there is clear damage to the product box could you say damaged in transit, but then why would you even take that home from the store? If it was shipped to you, then file the RMA. The same could happen with Intel mainboards: in the rare instance where there is poor handling during manufacture or packaging, you could have a mainboard with bent socket pins.

 

Otherwise there isn't any greater risk with PGA for one simple reason: YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO TOUCH THE BOTTOM OF THE PROCESSOR! You're not supposed to touch any area that will be making electrical or signal contact -- whether that's the bottom of the processor, or the PCI-Express connections on a graphics card, or what have you. That's been true since the beginning. If you're mishandling the CPU, whether LGA or PGA, then you deserve any damage that happens. If you're not careful handling a small electronic component that set you back several hundred dollars, then you deserve any damage that occurs.

 

Yes, people can't be 100% careful, but then nothing can be 100% idiot-proof either. If you're going to say LGA is better simply because someone might be an idiot handling a PGA processor, you're not making much of an argument in your favor.

[spartaman64]

it isnt such a big deal both have their advantages and disadvantages. PGA is easier to break than LGA but PGA is much easier to bend back than LGA

[Coaxialgamer]

As someone who's owned both lga and pga boards/cpu's before , i don't think the socket type is that important . Sure, the cpu is more expensive than the motherboard , but I also generally find it's much easier to break/bend pins on lga and fixing it is pretty much impossible . 

 

My real question is if AMD will make chips with quad channel memory and 30-40 pcie lanes on their top-tier SKU's .

[Tomsen]

I think OEM like this decision very much. I guess they weren't to happy when intel forced the cost and liability onto them.

ODMs most likely don't care.

[zMeul]

http://support.hp.com/ca-en/document/c05254568

HP name: Willow
SSID: 822A

[patrickjp93]

15 hours ago, dlink377 said:

I rarely touch AMD product, I never knew they still use those pins on the processor.

 

Any reasons they don't want to move to a more modern LGA pins on motherboard? Patents? or it is more expensive (i really doubt it)

AMD eats the cost and lets mobos be cheaper so their builds in total are cheaper to buy.

[patrickjp93]

5 hours ago, Tomsen said:

I think OEM like this decision very much. I guess they weren't to happy when intel forced the cost and liability onto them.

ODMs most likely don't care.

OEMs don't care much. You have to be pretty dumb to mess up an Intel socket once it's shipped to you, and they just solder the sockets to the boards. For AMD it's just a way to make the whole platform a bit cheaper and cost-competitive at the market.

[patrickjp93]

6 hours ago, spartaman64 said:

it isnt such a big deal both have their advantages and disadvantages. PGA is easier to break than LGA but PGA is much easier to bend back than LGA

At that pin density when the credit card trick no longer works? No, that's not a valid argument anymore.

 

9 hours ago, brandishwar said:

Much of the PGA vs LGA argument basically boils down to this: people can have momentary bouts of stupidity. That's one of the reasons much of how computer technology has developed is to make things as idiot-proof as possible. There is a limit, though.

 

I've been building systems since the 486-DX2. That was when the ZIF socket was young. Prior to the 486, you didn't have that. To get the processor out of the system, you had to use a "chip extractor" -- I think I still have mine somewhere that came with a toolkit my dad gave me all those years ago. You want to talk about the potential to bend pins... Without the ZIF, you had a much, much higher degree of probability since you had to set the processor correct before pressing it down. Press it down without making sure all the pins are lined up right and you'll bend them. The ZIF made that much easier -- set the processor, make sure it's seated properly, give it a small jiggle to double-check, then push down the retention arm.

 

So like many other aspects of building computers, the ZIF fell under the idea of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and "don't change the design unless someone has a legitimate complaint". The potential to bend pins is actually why Intel (and soon thereafter AMD) went to the cartridge processor -- the Pentium II and first Pentium IIIs -- before switching back to the ZIF with the exposed core because of heat. The dangers of that exposed core are why Intel and AMD started adding the IHS -- integrated heat spreader. The processor is more costly than the mainboard, as many learned through that telltale CRACK! that told you that you applied too much force in trying to attach your heatsink.

 

And now you're wanting to debate PGA vs LGA. I think a lot of people are only saying LGA is better simply because it's Intel's MO and not AMD's, and given the vast majority of this forum is comprised of people who would denounce anything AMD, it's no surprise. Neither is tangibly better. AMD has been able to produce high performing processors with the PGA, and Intel has been able to do the same with LGA.

 

The risk of bent pins is one that has long existed. The only thing LGA does is moves the risk from the CPU to the mainboard. And if the pins come to you from the manufacturer already bent, then that wasn't a problem with shipping, but with packing and handling. Only if there is clear damage to the product box could you say damaged in transit, but then why would you even take that home from the store? If it was shipped to you, then file the RMA. The same could happen with Intel mainboards: in the rare instance where there is poor handling during manufacture or packaging, you could have a mainboard with bent socket pins.

 

Otherwise there isn't any greater risk with PGA for one simple reason: YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO TOUCH THE BOTTOM OF THE PROCESSOR! You're not supposed to touch any area that will be making electrical or signal contact -- whether that's the bottom of the processor, or the PCI-Express connections on a graphics card, or what have you. That's been true since the beginning. If you're mishandling the CPU, whether LGA or PGA, then you deserve any damage that happens. If you're not careful handling a small electronic component that set you back several hundred dollars, then you deserve any damage that occurs.

 

Yes, people can't be 100% careful, but then nothing can be 100% idiot-proof either. If you're going to say LGA is better simply because someone might be an idiot handling a PGA processor, you're not making much of an argument in your favor.

LGA does deliver better power more stably by virtue of having better pin density that's not up for debate.

 

And I'm sorry but you don't have to be stupid to mess up a PGA. You just have to have butter fingers for a split second. That's why I use an alum block every time I go to build now. I get sweaty really fast, though it doesn't help I work under a hot chandelier in my house

[Ryujin2003]

On 09/17/2016 at 8:37 AM, dlink377 said:

I rarely touch AMD product, I never knew they still use those pins on the processor.

 

Any reasons they don't want to move to a more modern LGA pins on motherboard? Patents? or it is more expensive (i really doubt it)

Does it really matter if they use pins/pads/or whatever? I don't understand why people seem to think that the only way that AMD will be good is if they essentially become Intel.

Do you buy a Toyota Camby because of its transmission and the engines CPU? Or do you choose your Honda for the same reason? Or does it only matter that you get the performance you need at the cost you want?

[Prysin]

On 17/09/2016 at 2:35 PM, Misanthrope said:

I agree: the main reason is that for most builds the processor is more expensive than the motherboard so it's a good idea to protect the processor first mobo second from a pragmatic standpoint.

on the flip side, bent pins on the board can be MUCH harder to "argue" with a manufaturer for RMA reasons. Not all board makers are going to say "oh, so its not your fault? its our fault?"

The whole LGA vs PGA is a retarded one sided kneejerk argument that has no relevance to actual performance metrics or function. If anything, it shows that people want the ability to be much more careless about their products.

[Ryujin2003]

21 hours ago, System Error Message said:

will the CPUs be backwards compatible with AM3 and AM3+? Because thats probably why they keep to the same format.

 

my friend lost 1 8 core piledriver because of the bent pin falling off. Pins are horrible for CPUs or motherboards. Infact i have 1 intel motherboard not working because the pins of the CPU socket are bent and i cant get it straight anymore, its a nightmare.

 

They need to use flat contacts for both board and CPU.

My AMD Phenom 1055t has a bent pin, and it runs perfectly still to this day. I have found in my "professional experience", than means being paid for PC repair, that more inexperienced users damage pins in the LGA boards than other users do with AMD CPUs. If pins were so horrible, they wouldn't be used for contacts.

 

And no, it won't be compatible with AM3 (+). The new CPU is larger, so the socket is a different size. S9me companies are making free conversion kits for their current AM3 (+) coolers to AM4.

[Ryujin2003]

19 hours ago, Citadelen said:

My AIO is attached with four points...

Exactly. The stock cooler is clip, which is totally fine to use. All after market are 4 screws... if you don't like the clip, get a different air cooler.