AMD Zen CPUs will have PGA mounting systems

[cayphed]

1 minute ago, rhyseyness said:

AMD won't have to change their manufacturing process for their interposer  /s

Most of the CPU's today are outsourced to third party's like GlobalFoundries http://www.globalfoundries.com/

[Trixanity]

4 minutes ago, TrigrH said:

much easier to bend a pin on a CPU since you are trying to place a chip with pins into holes vs placing a flat surface on pins.

Yes, but they are easier to bend back (ie. fix) whereas it is not all that uncommon to get bent pins on a motherboard and if that happens, you'll have to buy a new one since the blame for the bent pins will fall on you even if it happened in manufacturing/shipping and therefore warranty will not cover it.

[TrigrH]

1 minute ago, Trixanity said:

Yes, but they are easier to bend back (ie. fix) whereas it is not all that uncommon to get bent pins on a motherboard and if that happens, you'll have to buy a new one since the blame for the bent pins will fall on you even if it happened in manufacturing/shipping and therefore warranty will not cover it.

not if you snap the pin

[Trixanity]

1 minute ago, TrigrH said:

not if you snap the pin

Well, can't account for everything  

 

It is a long time since I've had my hands on a PGA setup but I do believe you will have to do something very wrong to immediately snap a pin.

[TrigrH]

1 minute ago, Trixanity said:

Well, can't account for everything  

 

It is a long time since I've had my hands on a PGA setup but I do believe you will have to do something very wrong to immediately snap a pin.

yeah but newer cpus have more pins in a smaller area = smaller pins.

[mariushm]

7 minutes ago, rhyseyness said:

AMD won't have to change their manufacturing process for their interposer  /s

4 minutes ago, cayphed said:

Most of the CPU's today are outsourced to third party's like GlobalFoundries http://www.globalfoundries.com/

AMD will make the Zen processors at both GlobalFoundries and Samsung , both are 14nm processes and made with the concept of "copy smart" or something like that - basically the 14nm at GlobalFoundries is an almost  "clone" of Samsung's 14 nm - if one implements something, it's also implemented on the other factory but not necessarily 100% identical, as close as possible to still be able to take one design from one of them, do some minor tweaking and put it in production at the other.

 

The interposer is a huge chip surface wise, because the chip itself and the HBM memories have to sit on top of it. To save costs, the interposer is usually made on an older process, for example the interposer for Fury cards was made on 65nm process (think DDR2 chips, intel q6600, those times).

 

So the Zen is made at either GlobalFoundries or Samsung , the HBM memory is made at Samsung or Hynix at 16nm or 20 nm , the interposer is 65nm or lower (though not necessary since it's basically a vertica stack of wires inside silicone to connect the 1000+ wires from each HBM stack to the gpu)  and these three chips are basically shipped to US at Ankor, a company specialized in packaging chips into various formats and testing them ... these guys put the gpu chip and hbm memory on top of interposer and solder them to it then attach everything to the ceramic or organic substrate that also has the gold plated pins, and they test the whole ensemble for AMD.

 

nVidia plans to use Hynix to do what Ankor does for AMD.

[cayphed]

5 minutes ago, mariushm said:

AMD will make the Zen processors at both GlobalFoundries and Samsung , both are 14nm processes and made with the concept of "copy smart" or something like that - basically the 14nm at GlobalFoundries is an almost  "clone" of Samsung's 14 nm - if one implements something, it's also implemented on the other factory but not necessarily 100% identical, as close as possible to still be able to take one design from one of them, do some minor tweaking and put it in production at the other.

 

The interposer is a huge chip surface wise, because the chip itself and the HBM memories have to sit on top of it. To save costs, the interposer is usually made on an older process, for example the interposer for Fury cards was made on 65nm process (think DDR2 chips, intel q6600, those times).

 

So the Zen is made at either GlobalFoundries or Samsung , the HBM memory is made at Samsung or Hynix at 16nm or 20 nm , the interposer is 65nm or lower (though not necessary since it's basically a vertica stack of wires inside silicone to connect the 1000+ wires from each HBM stack to the gpu)  and these three chips are basically shipped to US at Ankor, a company specialized in packaging chips into various formats and testing them ... these guys put the gpu chip and hbm memory on top of interposer and solder them to it then attach everything to the ceramic or organic substrate that also has the gold plated pins, and they test the whole ensemble for AMD.

 

nVidia plans to use Hynix to do what Ankor does for AMD.

I do believe it's only just Global Foundries, since that's all I can read and found to date http://www.extremetech.com/computing/217664-globalfoundries-announces-14nm-validation-with-amd-silicon

How ever I don't see it as a far stretch that Samsung would have a slice of it too...

I do believe all this hype is for nothing though (just yet anyway...) http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/229725-report-claims-intel-amd-will-both-delay-next-gen-processors-to-early-2017

[hex4]

I don't see the issue, i have broken an intel board before because i mounted the CPU in it with a bit too much force, i also had one come with pins all messed up before i could even use it and it was new.

 

Never had this with an AMD build though i have bent an Athlon 3200+ pin back in the day, was easy to fix though.

[DevilishBooster]

2 hours ago, ivan134 said:

Oh boy. Here we go... 

And it wasn't even zMeul this time!! 

[DevilishBooster]

1 hour ago, cayphed said:

Check this: http://valid.x86.fr/q0tc0h

it's a LGA Celeron clocking over the 8Ghz mark...

*facepalm*

You do realize that that is one thread/one core.... right?

[cayphed]

2 minutes ago, DevilishBooster said:

*facepalm*

You do realize that that is one thread/one core.... right?

Obviously...

I picked it because of the LGA 775 package, as a pure example, nothing more.

[Spectrez]

Aslong as PGA isnt holding the cpu back then good on them.

i personally dont like the tiny pins on LGA.

 

Also to people saying the 6950x is a consumer CPU - simply crazy

[rhyseyness]

51 minutes ago, cayphed said:

Most of the CPU's today are outsourced to third party's like GlobalFoundries http://www.globalfoundries.com/

That's a good point, I was only kidding though

 

[patrickjp93]

2 hours ago, RagnarokDel said:

they're pretty even unless you're using garbage.

5930K > 99% of x99 motherboards in price, not to mention Xeons and the extreme processors.

 

1 hour ago, ace_cheaply said:

Um, yes they are?  Zen has 40% faster ipc.

That's a general formula and doesn't tell you about individual workloads. For specific instruction sets with little to no improvement, total performance improvement could be as low as 10%. IPC is an integral value, so knowing total IPC improvements doesn't tell you anything.

[pckid]

I have heard that the Zen ipc should be close to Skylake.

[Prysin]

2 hours ago, cayphed said:

Check this: http://valid.x86.fr/q0tc0h

it's a LGA Celeron clocking over the 8Ghz mark...

wow. And the world record for Overclocking belongs to?

AMD FX 8350

 

second place?
AMD FX

 

Third -> Celeron you linked.

 

Fourth place?

AMD FX

 

Fifth place

AMD A4/A6/A8/A10

 

Sixth

Intel i7 860

 

So of the worlds six highest validated overclocks, only 2 is LGA and 4 is PGA.

 

 

[dalekphalm]

1 hour ago, cayphed said:

Obviously...

I picked it because of the LGA 775 package, as a pure example, nothing more.

Yeah I really don't understand your point? Everyone knows that Intel CPU's of various types can overclock fairly well.

 

As you no doubt are aware, literally both of the scores above that celeron are AMD chips - eg: PGA:

http://valid.x86.fr/lpza4n

That's the top one.

 

So, yeah. Hurray for Intel getting to third place?

 

Frankly, this entire "One can OC better than the other!" argument is silly. Architecture is going to be significantly more important in the grand scheme of things then what type of socket it is.

 

So let's all drop that.

 

Really, I have seen no concrete, sourced proof that LGA is superior to PGA in any way. Yes, PGA pins bend easier. They also unbend easier and are easy to fix. LGA socket pins can bend too... good luck trying to fix that though. Each has their advantage, but it literally balances itself out.

 

What do you prefer? Easier to bend but easier to fix? Or harder to bend (But really, not that much harder) but nigh impossible to fix? Unless someone can prove that electrically, or performance wise, LGA is superior, then I'll just chalk this mostly up to "People inherently think all things AMD CPU are bad".

[Misanthrope]

I never had a cpu that was cheaper than the mobo it's on, makes no fucking sense to have the more expensive part prone to damage. 

[awesomeness10120]

But in the grand scheme of things, PGA vs. LGA is totally irrelevant once it's in the socket IMO.

[Orblivion]

5 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

I never had a cpu that was cheaper than the mobo it's on, makes no fucking sense to have the more expensive part prone to damage. 

And I've never had a cpu that I damaged the pins on.  It isn't as if PGA pins is a rampant problem and LGA fixed everything.

[SilicateWielder]

4 hours ago, HKZeroFive said:

Not an entirely big deal to be honest...

 

PGA makes motherboards cheaper to manufacture and pins are easier to bend back.

This. I completely screwed up the pins on an old Athlon X2 64 but after bending them back and doin some tedious pin alignment work I was able to still use it.

 

I'd much rather have a PGA processor than a processor that places it's pins in the motherboard socket. But that doesn't mean I won't use a processor that is not PGA

[FratStar]

This has to be the silliest argument I've ever read it literally doesn't matter if it's PGA or LGA. If you drop your CPU and bend a pin that's your fault. I've bent pins on 8350 about 3 times being clumsy and I've fixed it myself within half an hour each time.

 

I also unbent my friend's 8320 pins (his had bent pins from the get go while again mine were bent me being clumsy).

[NumLock21]

AMD are using LGA, just not on the consumer side.

[DarkBlade2117]

Do we have a zMeul #2 in here? No pointing names

[flibberdipper]

3 hours ago, Sauron said:

Sad but expected.

Having the pins on the cpu makes it more likely to break. Would you rather break your 120$ motherboard or your 350$ cpu?

Unless you like to chuck your CPU at a wall while building your PC, you're not going to fuck the pins up. They are fairly retard-proof.