nVidia's Tom Petersen raises a good point in AMD vs GameWorks issue

[Notional]

You eat up AMD propaganda.

 

Learn about self critique.

 

Yes we all know CD Project RED and Valve for their AMD propaganda /s.

[BonSie]

 

you should look at the specific nVidia features, like:

• TXAA
• MFAA

 

It also has HDAO, an AMD feature. So it's not a Gameworks title, if it was it would also be bundled with a GPU.

[Guest Kloaked]

Yes we all know CD Project RED and Valve for their AMD propaganda /s.

 

u wot

[Rohith_Kumar_Sp]

i'm surprised You-Know-Who/He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named hasn't made an ad hominem and of course nvidia lied arguments yet. why does it make it a PR lie when Nvidia or the games that support game works say anything but it's always the truth when Amd comes out and bashes game works ? have you really for once thought the other way around? 

[Sakkura]

Even so, they banked quite a bit of money. Probably enough to make you question their status between indie and AAA.

 

Sure. It's just that with CD Projekt Red, several times the size of Mojang, there's really no question.

[typographie]

Indie and AAA are mutually exclusive by most definitions.

Except Steam, of course, where even 100% Ubisoft games like Child of Light and Assassin's Creed Chronicles: China end up with "Indie" tags.

 

--

 

I'm just going to throw this out there: The Witcher 3 was distributed in North America by Warner Bros. and in Europe by Namco Bandai. Project CARS was distributed in all territories by Namco Bandai. I honestly don't know if that precludes them being "indie," but to say they are leans a bit too heavily on a technicality for my tastes. Indie means almost nothing with regards to these two games.

[BonSie]

Sure. It's just that with CD Projekt Red, several times the size of Mojang, there's really no question.

It might no longer be an indie studio, but it's far of from being a DICE, Ubisoft or Rockstar with loads of experience.

[Guest Kloaked]

Sure. It's just that with CD Projekt Red, several times the size of Mojang, there's really no question.

 

Sure.

 

But in my opinion (that's pretty much everything I say anyways since I can't speak for these people at the studios), I do not think CDPR is a AAA studio.

 

With the title AAA, that carries some baggage from publishers like Ubisoft, EA, etc. CDPR publishes their own games.

 

However, after thinking about it I can see your side of the argument since Bethesda is essentially publishing themselves since their parent companies are one of the same, more or less.

[szomeret]

Well, it is possible, but unlikely.

1. AMD optimize shaders for popular games. (The driver calculates the shader's checksum, if it is one they know, then they load the specialized version instead). No surprise, Nvidia does this too.

2. Usually, AMD contacts the developers for the shaders' source code, if they are shipped in compiled form, in order to make their optimization process possible. The developers see no loss: AMD will improve your games performance on their hardware for free in their upcoming driver, what luck!

3. In this case, Nvidia wrote the shaders. AMD may contact the developer, but they cannot distribute the source of some shaders to AMD due to Nvidia's licensing.

4. Now AMD has to optimize the shader program from the compiled form, which looks something like this:

imul null, r1.x, cb0[r1.x+2].y, cb0[r1.y+2].xitof r1.x, r1.xadd r0.x, r0.x, r1.xmul o0.z, r0.x, l(0.2)utof r0.x, r0.zadd o0.w, r0.x, l(0.5)itof o0.x, r0.witof o0.y, r0.yret

5. Good fucking luck. The fact they got it out so soon only speaks to the skill of the poor bastards who have to maintain the wretch that is any modern graphics driver.

[silberdrachi]

Jesus fucking christ, half this thread is arguing semantics on indie v AAA instead of the real problem.

 

It boils down to do we want fancy extra shit in our games that don't effect performance, that help game development by giving devs tools to streamline some processes?

 

And the side questions:
Should we accept these "improvments" to the game if they degrade performance on "the other team" or even some of the "same team's" old cards?

Do these "improvements" actually help the game development process if they add stuff to the game that wouldn't have been coded for anyway?

Should game development studios properly verify optimization of games (or just proper code standards in general) before releasing the game, so that AMD/nVidia don't have to re-optimize things all the time?

[Sakkura]

It might no longer be an indie studio, but it's far of from being a DICE, Ubisoft or Rockstar with loads of experience.

 

It's about on par with Infinity Ward. And they've been developing their own game engines for years now.

 

 

 

Sure.

 

But in my opinion (that's pretty much everything I say anyways since I can't speak for these people at the studios), I do not think CDPR is a AAA studio.

 

With the title AAA, that carries some baggage from publishers like Ubisoft, EA, etc. CDPR publishes their own games.

 

However, after thinking about it I can see your side of the argument since Bethesda is essentially publishing themselves since their parent companies are one of the same, more or less.

 

Alright. They're not Ubisoft or EA, I'll give you that.

[Notional]

u wot

 

According to Valve programmer Rich Geldreich, the principle benefit of GameWorks is that it gives Nvidia an opportunity to optimize segments of code that it wouldn’t normally control directly.

 

“[T]here are fundamental limits to how much perf you can squeeze out of the PC graphics stack when limited to only driver-level optimizations,” Geldreich told ExtremeTech. “The PC driver devs are stuck near the very end of the graphics pipeline, and by the time the GL or D3D call stream gets to them there’s not a whole lot they can safely, sanely, and sustainably do to manipulate the callstream for better perf. Comparatively, the gains you can get by optimizing at the top or middle of the graphics pipeline (vs. the very end, inside the driver) are much larger.”

 http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/183411-gameworks-faq-amd-nvidia-and-game-developers-weigh-in-on-the-gameworks-controversy/3

 

Yup pure AMD propaganda there. 

 

 

"Many of you have asked us if AMD Radeon GPUs would be able to run NVIDIA’s HairWorks technology – the answer is yes! However, unsatisfactory performance may be experienced as the code of this feature cannot be optimized for AMD products. Radeon users are encouraged to disable NVIDIA HairWorks if the performance is below expectations."

 

Marcin Momot, CD project RED developer.

 

http://www.overclock3d.net/articles/gpu_displays/witcher_3_dev_says_nvidia_hairworks_unoptimizable_for_amd_gpus/1

 

Again so much AMD propaganda /s. Why are you not alarmed by what developers are saying?

[Guest Kloaked]

 http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/183411-gameworks-faq-amd-nvidia-and-game-developers-weigh-in-on-the-gameworks-controversy/3

 

Yup pure AMD propaganda there. 

 

 

 

Marcin Momot, DC project RED developer.

 

http://www.overclock3d.net/articles/gpu_displays/witcher_3_dev_says_nvidia_hairworks_unoptimizable_for_amd_gpus/1

 

Again so much AMD propaganda /s. Why are you not alarmed by what developers are saying?

 

Because what AMD does after the fact is contrary to everything those people say.

[Gibbons]

There are sort of two different ways of defining indie devs.

 

Independent - by the book definition. Self publishing, mostly self funded (maybe loans) but independent.Doesn't matter how big the team or budget. Valve (Portal 2), Blizzard (Hots), Bohemia Interactive (Arma 3)

 

Indie - 'the genre'. Small team, self funded low budget. Only using a 3rd party for distribution. Perception of being an underdog. Facepunch Studios (Garrys Mod), Supergiant Games(Bastion)

 

 

Is this video worth watching for informational purposes? I can't stand Tom Petersen and 1 hour 27 min of him is pretty daunting.

[Notional]

Because what AMD does after the fact is contrary to everything those people say.

 

Not following, how so? Lowering the tessellation factor, is not optimization as such, as the code still runs like shit, but is just lowered in fidelity.

[Techhog]

and yet, it's a GameWorks title, AMD was high and mighty that GameWorks prevents them to optimize the drivers

so .. which is it ?!developer's fault? AMD's own fault? nVidia's ? perhaps they should blame Intel .. just in case  :lol:

GTAV was universal. It's such a big title that Rockstar worked with both AMD and Nvidia and incorporated features and optimizations for both.

 

Other GameWorks titles are optimized only for Nvidia, and AMD basically gets the gold code and nothing before that.

[Guest Kloaked]

Not following, how so? Lowering the tessellation factor, is not optimization as such, as the code still runs like shit, but is just lowered in fidelity.

 

 

It happened with Far Cry. They released a driver for it.

It happened with Assassin's Creed. They released a driver for it.

It happened with Watch Dogs. They released a driver for it.

It happened with another Far Cry. They released a driver for it.

It happened with another Assassin's Creed. They released a driver for it.

It happened with GTA 5. They released a driver for it.

It happened with Project Cars. They released a driver for it.

It happened with Witcher 3. They released a driver for it.

 

Should I go back even further?

[Derangel]

Unless someone from CDPR or another indie studio publishes (that means invests their own money into) another studio's game, they're an indie studio.

 

CD Projekt started out releasing other company's games, dude. The very first thing they did as a company was localize and publish Baldur's Gate in Poland. Developing games didn't come until a few years later. At one point they owned the company that published the Witcher novels and also had a hand in releasing other forms of media. Also they own GOG, which sells games from hundreds of studios. CDPR isn't even a company, they're the game development subsidiary of a CD Projekt.

[Techhog]

Not following, how so? Lowering the tessellation factor, is not optimization as such, as the code still runs like shit, but is just lowered in fidelity.

Is the fidelity actually impacted significantly, though? Are there any comparisons?

[Victorious Secret]

It happened with Far Cry. They released a driver for it.

It happened with Assassin's Creed. They released a driver for it.

It happened with Watch Dogs. They released a driver for it.

It happened with another Far Cry. They released a driver for it.

It happened with another Assassin's Creed. They released a driver for it.

It happened with GTA 5. They released a driver for it.

It happened with Project Cars. They released a driver for it.

It happened with Witcher 3. They released a driver for it.

 

Should I go back even further?

 

LOL. 

 

Keep going, this is too good 

[Techhog]

It happened with Far Cry. They released a driver for it.

It happened with Assassin's Creed. They released a driver for it.

It happened with Watch Dogs. They released a driver for it.

It happened with another Far Cry. They released a driver for it.

It happened with another Assassin's Creed. They released a driver for it.

It happened with GTA 5. They released a driver for it.

It happened with Project Cars. They released a driver for it.

It happened with Witcher 3. They released a driver for it.

 

Should I go back even further?

That proves that drivers help, which nobody denies. It doesn't prove that they completely fix those issues, and in none of those cases was performance completely fixed. On top of that, you're really going to deny that AMD can't optimize HairWorks when they have no access to the code? Really? Also, including GTAV is cheating, and "another Assassin's Creed" and Watch Dogs weren't fixed at all. (though those were broken on everything)

[Trik'Stari]

As I've said before, AMD needs to drop SOMETHING. They don't have the money or resources to be in so many different parts of the industry. Either drop CPU's and focus on GPU's, or vice versa.

 

Otherwise, they will continue to flounder in both GPU and CPU markets (note, I'm lumping APU's and CPU's together in this comment).

[Guest Kloaked]

That proves that drivers help, which nobody denies. It doesn't prove that they completely fix those issues, and in none of those cases was performance completely fixed. On top of that, you're really going to deny that AMD can't optimize HairWorks when they have no access to the code? Really?

 

They can't optimize Hairworks because it's not their farking code.

 

That's why if you have an AMD card, it's recommended to turn off NVIDIA effects since you don't have an NVIDIA card to run those proprietary NVIDIA effects.

[AlwaysFSX]

They can't optimize Hairworks because it's not their farking code.

 

That's why if you have an AMD card, it's recommended to turn off NVIDIA effects since you don't have an NVIDIA card to run those proprietary NVIDIA effects.

Oh no, my .308 doesn't work in a .22. Let's raise hell for the makers of the .308s!

[Notional]

It happened with Far Cry. They released a driver for it.

It happened with Assassin's Creed. They released a driver for it.

It happened with Watch Dogs. They released a driver for it.

It happened with another Far Cry. They released a driver for it.

It happened with another Assassin's Creed. They released a driver for it.

It happened with GTA 5. They released a driver for it.

It happened with Project Cars. They released a driver for it.

It happened with Witcher 3. They released a driver for it.

 

Should I go back even further?

 

What is your point? No one has ever stated that AMD cannot optimize a game that uses GameWorks. What everyone is stating is that AMD cannot optimize the Gameworks effects ifself. So what happens when the GameWorks effect is implemented into the game, like Batman Origins? That's right, utter performance derp.

 

So again, you're making a counter argument to a straw man. Good job.