nVidia's Tom Petersen raises a good point in AMD vs GameWorks issue

[Misanthrope]

As I've said before, AMD needs to drop SOMETHING. They don't have the money or resources to be in so many different parts of the industry. Either drop CPU's and focus on GPU's, or vice versa.

 

Otherwise, they will continue to flounder in both GPU and CPU markets (note, I'm lumping APU's and CPU's together in this comment).

 

They're not that behind in the GPU market. As I previously alluded to here and elsewhere, both companies love to capitalize on this stupid shit-war back and forth yet the stupid fucking hair cripples performance no matter what card you have Nvidia or AMD.

 

So it's no question: the processor division is weighting them down that's the one they need to drop. Not that it's in any way feasible or even possible though.

[Techhog]

They can't optimize Hairworks because it's not their farking code.

 

That's why if you have an AMD card, it's recommended to turn off NVIDIA effects since you don't have an NVIDIA card to run those proprietary NVIDIA effects.

Perhaps the problem is the fact that it's proprietary and closed-source, hm? Why not just completely disable it for AMD cards? Why even give AMD cards the option? There's only one reason...

 

Also, check my edit.

[Guest Kloaked]

LOL. 

 

Keep going, this is too good 

 

Final Fantasy XIV

World of Warcraft

Dying Light

The Crew

Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare

Borderlands and Borderlands 2

Titanfall

[AlwaysFSX]

Perhaps the problem is the fact that it's proprietary and closed-source, hm? Why not just completely disable it for AMD cards? Why even give AMD cards the option? There's only one reason...

 

Also, check my edit.

Jesus Christ just because it's proprietary doesn't mean jack. Why should it be contaminated by AMD engineers to destroy the code, make it run like shit, and not look as good in game? What's the point of that?

 

Because hurrdurr! Everything has to be open! Free! So everyone can use it! Sorry, in the real world the quality products are made by people who know what they're doing.

[patrickjp93]

That proves that drivers help, which nobody denies. It doesn't prove that they completely fix those issues, and in none of those cases was performance completely fixed. On top of that, you're really going to deny that AMD can't optimize HairWorks when they have no access to the code? Really? Also, including GTAV is cheating, and "another Assassin's Creed" and Watch Dogs weren't fixed at all. (though those were broken on everything)

We can deny it, because AMD doesn't need the source code. If you have the binary (which AMD does), and you have software, hypervisor, and hardware profilers (AMD does, some of if not the absolute best in the industry), then you can optimize. It might be painful, but it can be done.

 

Moreover, you could rapidly find proof if Nvidia was deliberately hurting AMD's performance by doing GPUID searches and branching to various DX kernels where the "AMD" branch is the least efficient. Furthermore, AMD can reverse-engineer the whole thing the same way I do: disassemble, decompile, unscramble the in-lined functions, and you can reconstruct the whole code base with a very high degree of accuracy, and I guarantee you AMD is a Hell of a lot better at it than me. Richard Huddy should be fired if AMD wants any credibility thrown their way about complaining about this.

[Guest Kloaked]

What is your point? No one has ever stated that AMD cannot optimize a game that uses GameWorks. What everyone is stating is that AMD cannot optimize the Gameworks effects ifself. So what happens when the GameWorks effect is implemented into the game, like Batman Origins? That's right, utter performance derp.

 

So again, you're making a counter argument to a straw man. Good job.

 

No, you're creating a victim argument that has no ground. There's nothing wrong with AMD's side of things except when they don't do anything about it. They can't optimize for Nvidia's Gameworks effects because it's Nvidia's code.

 

Please don't give me the "No one has ever stated that AMD cannot optimize a game" blah blah blah. All of you forum trolls and AMD's marketing team are implying that is the case and that's why little poor you is confused about this whole ordeal.

 

What happens when AMD sits on their thumbs? That's right, utter performance derp.

[Notional]

Is the fidelity actually impacted significantly, though? Are there any comparisons?

 

Not sure, I don't have the game sadly. At x16 tessellation, there is very little difference to 64x. At 8x you can see difference. at 0x Geralt looks like a hairless bear.

 

 

And at 0x tessellation:

 

[Victorious Secret]

Jesus Christ just because it's proprietary doesn't mean jack. Why should it be contaminated by AMD engineers to destroy the code, make it run like shit, and not look as good in game? What's the point of that?

 

Because hurrdurr! Everything has to be open! Free! So everyone can use it! Sorry, in the real world the quality products are made by people who know what they're doing.

 

Do the same people cry that Havok isn't open sauce? Cause that isn't. DirectX isn't really open source either, yet everyone and their mother knows its the standard to develop for because MS only ships tens of millions of licenses a year with it built in. 

 

Oh idk, most good software is based on open standards that then are modified to do more. Kinda the point. Game works may very well one day get rolled into DX/individual engines and Nvidia will rightfully make a lot of money. 

 

Wait a minute! Game works already gets rolled into entire engines (like Unreal) because clearly someone, somewhere along the line realized that the additions are worthy and push things forward. 

 

Just saying. 

[Guest Kloaked]

Perhaps the problem is the fact that it's proprietary and closed-source, hm? Why not just completely disable it for AMD cards? Why even give AMD cards the option? There's only one reason...

 

Also, check my edit.

 

Because.... it's... not... AMD's?

 

Nvidia can do what they want with their shit. If I create code, it's mine to do with. If I can make a profit on it and keep the source code secret, you bet your bottom toppers I'll be raking in that dough while keeping the secret sauce to myself.

[Notional]

No, you're creating a victim argument that has no ground. There's nothing wrong with AMD's side of things except when they don't do anything about it. They can't optimize for Nvidia's Gameworks effects because it's Nvidia's code.

 

Please don't give me the "No one has ever stated that AMD cannot optimize a game" blah blah blah. All of you forum trolls and AMD's marketing team are implying that is the case and that's why little poor you is confused about this whole ordeal.

 

What happens when AMD sits on their thumbs? That's right, utter performance derp.

 

Victim argument? Where? Yes it is NVidia's proprietary closed black boxed horrible code. That is correct. And that is bad for all gamers, dividing the market and what you can do in your game. Not a scenario any gamer should condone.

 

Really? Prove it. When have I ever stated (or AMD for that matter), that AMD cannot optimize for games that uses GameWorks? ALL criticism has been on the actual gameworks effects. The only example I can think of, is Batman Origins, where WB games would not work with AMD, to implement AMD's optimization into the game, which is very odd.

[Techhog]

Final Fantasy XIV

World of Warcraft

Dying Light

The Crew

Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare

Borderlands and Borderlands 2

Titanfall

You're just listing things without stating how much of an effect they actually had. Nobody here is saying that drivers don't help; they're saying that they can only help so much and that they wouldn't be necessary if devs would optimize their games properly instead of getting one vendor to do it and then leaving the other to fend for itself. You included GTAV on your list, which was ironic because that was a day one driver and it's not a true GameWorks game, but you had to include that because fuck context if it hurts your point.

[Guest Kloaked]

Victim argument? Where? Yes it is NVidia's proprietary closed black boxed horrible code. That is correct. And that is bad for all gamers, dividing the market and what you can do in your game. Not a scenario any gamer should condone.

 

Really? Prove it. When have I ever stated (or AMD for that matter), that AMD cannot optimize for games that uses GameWorks? ALL criticism has been on the actual gameworks effects. The only example I can think of, is Batman Origins, where WB games would not work with AMD, to implement AMD's optimization into the game, which is very odd.

 

It's not a black box. Right there. That's where you guys are implying that Nvidia's code is somehow blocking AMD from optimizing for the games.

 

Just proved it.

 

Check mate.

[Cainn]

Damn, don't tell the pissed off AMD users that Gameworks runs like shit on Nvidia cards also. 

[AlwaysFSX]

Do the same people cry that Havok isn't open sauce? Cause that isn't. DirectX isn't really open source either, yet everyone and their mother knows its the standard to develop for because MS only ships tens of millions of licenses a year with it built in. 

 

Oh idk, most good software is based on open standards that then are modified to do more. Kinda the point. Game works may very well one day get rolled into DX/individual engines and Nvidia will rightfully make a lot of money. 

 

Wait a minute! Game works already gets rolled into entire engines (like Unreal) because clearly someone, somewhere along the line realized that the additions are worthy and push things forward. 

 

Just saying. 

And the people creating Unreal actually know what they're doing, unlike the idiot in their basement trying to do everything from scratch.

 

Because.... it's... not... AMD's?

 

Nvidia can do what they want with their shit. If I create code, it's mine to do with. If I can make a profit on it and keep the source code secret, you bet your bottom toppers I'll be raking in that dough while keeping the secret sauce to myself.

Why can't Coke give out their secret recipe?? They should! It's bad for the market because they don't!

 

Yes it is NVidia's proprietary closed black boxed horrible code.

Horrible? It runs fantastically and is coded beautifully.

[Guest Kloaked]

You're just listing things without stating how much of an effect they actually had. Nobody here is saying that drivers don't help; they're saying that they can only help so much and that they wouldn't be necessary if devs would optimize their games properly instead of getting one vendor to do it and then leaving the other to fend for itself. You included GTAV on your list, which was ironic because that was a day one driver and it's not a true GameWorks game, but you had to include that because fuck context if it hurts your point.

 

No, it has more Nvidia effects than AMD effects. Just because it's not a "Gameworks title" doesn't mean it does not contain API's from the Gameworks library.

 

Fuck context. amirite?

[Notional]

Horrible? It runs fantastically and is coded beautifully.

 

Based on what? You've seen the code? You've dealt with optimization and implementation of it in game development? No you have not. I can only assume you are being sarcastic, because your statement makes no sense.

[Techhog]

Because.... it's... not... AMD's?

 

Nvidia can do what they want with their shit. If I create code, it's mine to do with. If I can make a profit on it and keep the source code secret, you bet your bottom toppers I'll be raking in that dough while keeping the secret sauce to myself.

Then why even give the option to let it run on AMD GPUs?

[Guest Kloaked]

Then why even give the option to let it run on AMD GPUs?

 

Not Nvidia's or AMD's problem, it's the consumer's problem. The Radeon user should be able to recognize the performance hit with the effect enabled, wonder why it's doing that, do a Google search for the effect, "Oh, TXAA is an Nvidia effect. I guess I won't be using that! :)"

[Techhog]

No, it has more Nvidia effects than AMD effects. Just because it's not a "Gameworks title" doesn't mean it does not contain API's from the Gameworks library.

 

Fuck context. amirite?

That's because there are more Nvidia effects than AMD effects, and that's not even the point. The point is that R* worked with both of them through the entire process, while CDPR, Rocksteady, the Ubisoft devs, etc. all worked exclusively with Nvidia. 

[Victorious Secret]

 

 

Why can't Coke give out their secret recipe?? They should! It's bad for the market because they don't!

 

I love this example because this example is the best one. 

 

Search for a Patent from Coke on their recipes. You will NEVER find a single one. Why? Because patents expire and can be challenged, and so Coke would eventually lose their secret. But a trade secret? It can be protected for eternity. Never has to be shared, never has to be revealed short of a Supreme Court Order and even then, good luck getting Coke to unite two pieces of the recipe, as they say. 

 

What is Nvidia Gameworks? It is their Coke Classic. It will be protected until the end of time. Do people bitch that certain franchises, chains and now even stadiums are Coke or Pepsi only? Nope. Why bitch about games? Its inevitable because gaming, believe it or not, did not start all these "shady" business practices. Gaming companies learned from the best - corporate America, which has spent centuries learning how to fuck over competitors and consumers at the same time. 

 

So no, Gameworks will NEVER be opened, barring Nvidia willingly letting out the code. Game works is 100% Nvidia property. It is 100% theirs to use at their discretion and 100% theirs to sell to whomever wishes to use. And clearly studios and engine developers prefer working with Coke over Pepsi. 

 

Deal with it. 

 

Maybe if AMD wasn't too busy emulating the shit of Pepsi and tried harder to be like Coke, their products might actually sell and improve their standing in the marketplace. 

[Guest Kloaked]

Based on what? You've seen the code? You've dealt with optimization and implementation of it in game development? No you have not. I can only assume you are being sarcastic, because your statement makes no sense.

 

Yet you're trying to act like Nvidia's code is a black box. You haven't seen it. You haven't made a game with it.

 

I can only assume you're being sarcastic because when you make these kind of arguments, they make no sense.

[AlwaysFSX]

Based on what? You've seen the code? You've dealt with optimization and implementation of it in game development? No you have not. I can only assume you are being sarcastic, because your statement makes no sense.

I've actually used things in the GameWorks library for my own fun. From code to engine SDKs. My statement makes perfect sense if you understand the English language. The coding for the GameWorks library is brilliant, it's not a mess and it works great without much of an impact.

[Guest Kloaked]

That's because there are more Nvidia effects than AMD effects, and that's not even the point. The point is that R* worked with both of them through the entire process, while CDPR, Rocksteady, the Ubisoft devs, etc. all worked exclusively with Nvidia. 

 

Doesn't make a difference.

 

Rockstar (or whomever was assigned the optimization job) probably knows how to make a game run well and wasn't lazy with it to get the game pushed out the door on a deadline.

[AlwaysFSX]

I love this example because this example is the best one. 

 

Search for a Patent from Coke on their recipes. You will NEVER find a single one. Why? Because patents expire and can be challenged, and so Coke would eventually lose their secret. But a trade secret? It can be protected for eternity. Never has to be shared, never has to be revealed short of a Supreme Court Order and even then, good luck getting Coke to unite two pieces of the recipe, as they say. 

 

What is Nvidia Gameworks? It is their Coke Classic. It will be protected until the end of time. Do people bitch that certain franchises, chains and now even stadiums are Coke or Pepsi only? Nope. Why bitch about games? Its inevitable because gaming, believe it or not, did not start all these "shady" business practices. Gaming companies learned from the best - corporate America, which has spent centuries learning how to fuck over competitors and consumers at the same time. 

 

So no, Gameworks will NEVER be opened, barring Nvidia willingly letting out the code. Game works is 100% Nvidia property. It is 100% theirs to use at their discretion and 100% theirs to sell to whomever wishes to use. And clearly studios and engine developers prefer working with Coke over Pepsi. 

 

Deal with it. 

 

Maybe if AMD wasn't too busy emulating the shit of Pepsi and tried harder to be like Coke, their products might actually sell and improve their standing in the marketplace. 

AND Pepsi just so happens to be doing just fine even with the evil Coca Cola company keeping their grubby secrets from the hands of local brewers and giants too.  :rolleyes:

[Techhog]

Not sure, I don't have the game sadly. At x16 tessellation, there is very little difference to 64x. At 8x you can see difference. at 0x Geralt looks like a hairless bear.

 

 

And at 0x tessellation:

 

Exactly as i thought. Nvidia piled on tons of extra tessellation for no reason other than to cripple AMD cards as well as older and lower-end Nvidia cards.