EU ban on non-removable laptop and smartphone(?) batteries

[jaslion]

43 minutes ago, leclod said:

I do change the battery of my Iphone SE (2016) (I lost the battery analysis doing this, the ..%, but the phone works fine)

(I like the small form factor of that old phone)

I did change the battery (and camera) of the Iphone 8 of my gf with an original one and it was working as original, with the ..%.

Yeah these were mostly fine to have that replaced. However the home button was already bound here and if that needed replacing you might as well toss the phone.

 

Ever since the 10 they SLAMMED DOWN HARD. Nowadays it's ALWAYS more expensive to fix an iphone than just give it to apple to fix and often it'll cost ya a new one.

 

It's been made impossible to repair without their unique software. Some parts have leaked of it allowing the older ones to be fixed somewhat but it's all tightly locked down.

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

Most of the Dell,HP, Lenovo, Asus laptops with a decent design are screwing their batteries in, all you need to do to access the battery is undo a few phillips screws to remove the bottom panel, while that still isn't as nice as a battery door or easily swapped batteries at least most people could be capable of changing it.

The only one making the battery unremovable is Apple using proprietary screws and gluing the battery in.

They're all using security screws, sorry to burst your bubble. Both Dell and Asus I had to use my special "security screw" screw driver for Precision 5xxx and for the screws in the ASUS Zephyrus.

 

The Precision 7150/7250 uses regular philips screws, but the 7350 and later don't use the battery access bay, you have to take the back off and the battery is screwed in where the 7150 and 7250 doesn't use that type. The 7350 and later use the soft-pouch batteries like the rest of the models which they started doing in like 2018.

 

At any rate, it does not negate the point. "user replacable" means they don't require special tools, and all of dell's pouch-type batteries require special tools and care to not damage. You can replace them yourself, but often the connector on the battery is easily damaged.

 

All the crappy lattitude's are actually easier to replace the battery in because you pull out 6 screws, and the back comes off as one piece. The Precision 5000's have two additional security screws in the middle, and the Precision 7300+ are somewhere in between where the entire back comes off as one piece, but because it's big, it's harder to put back together.

 

[thevictor390]

2 hours ago, Kisai said:

You mean "what will everyone, including Apple do?"

 

Cause the last laptops with removable batteries were made in 2016. Dell, HP, Lonovo, Asus, etc all switched to crappy ultra-book designs.

Business machines (Thinkpad, Lattitude, etc) have serviceable batteries, if not directly "removeable." Undo some screws, go around the edges with a pry tool, and peel off a mild adhesive. It takes less than half an hour. Not sure how this would fall under the regulations.

[Doobeedoo]

Yeah reall no reason not have them removable in general. Especially since they degrade, also they can be dangerous.

Even both thin laptops and phones can have it removable. Won't really add any extra space.

[MageTank]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

They're all using security screws, sorry to burst your bubble. Both Dell and Asus I had to use my special "security screw" screw driver for Precision 5xxx and for the screws in the ASUS Zephyrus.

 

No, they are all not, at least not on every model. My HP Omen 17 uses standard PH0 screws for both the bottom panel as well as the battery bracket. 

 

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

At any rate, it does not negate the point. "user replacable" means they don't require special tools

So HP using PH0 screws in their Omen means it's user replaceable, right?

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

You can replace them yourself, but often the connector on the battery is easily damaged.

Gonna need you to cite sources here. The connector itself is made of pretty durable material. Obviously pulling on the wires themselves isn't smart, but how does that negate the point of it being "easily replaceable"? It's no different from the wire harnesses used in the auto industry for years.

 

I get the feeling that you formulated an opinion based on your experience with two brands then falsely assumed that everyone must be following this trend. Then used said limited experience to force that opinion on others as if it is fact. You really gotta stop doing that, it almost never works.

 

I happen to have an entire stack of laptops near my work bench if you want me to go through them. I guarantee you none of them have "proprietary security screws".

[leadeater]

8 hours ago, MageTank said:

No, they are all not, at least not on every model. My HP Omen 17 uses standard PH0 screws for both the bottom panel as well as the battery bracket. 

Of the brands mentioned so far the business product lineups either has a release latch/tab or standard screws for access. Annoying bollocks is usually confined to consumer product lines except for things like the Microsoft Surface Pro.

 

8 hours ago, MageTank said:

Gonna need you to cite sources here. The connector itself is made of pretty durable material. Obviously pulling on the wires themselves isn't smart, but how does that negate the point of it being "easily replaceable"? It's no different from the wire harnesses used in the auto industry for years.

Many internal batteries don't use cables and have a connector as part of the battery housing. Even soft pouch batteries, this is how HP does it for EliteBooks, connector not cable. Or is/was, been a while since I pulled one apart.

[cmndr]

I'm FOR this in cases where the expected battery lifespan is under 10 years. 

With solid state batteries coming though... not much of a point. 

It'd be nice if there were a carve out for batteries that are expected to last longer than other components like the screen.

[Obioban]

Personally, I think having to remove the bottom cover is fine— I don’t want them to have to go back to hot swappable, as that comes with too many compromises.

 

But, making glue and software locks illegal sounds good.

[Zodiark1593]

35 minutes ago, cmndr said:

I'm FOR this in cases where the expected battery lifespan is under 10 years. 

With solid state batteries coming though... not much of a point. 

It'd be nice if there were a carve out for batteries that are expected to last longer than other components like the screen.

Unless solid state batteries are actually in consumer hands, their relevance in making laws involving batteries is questionable. 
 

My personal opinion is that, OEMs should refrain from deliberately complicating battery replacement, in addition to limiting use of adhesives (especially with pouch cells). 

Though, I’m also aware of the flaw in my opinion here, in that the malicious compliance approach, if engineers didn’t factor in replacement (either positively or negatively), would be to build everything around the battery. 
 

So perhaps a “reasonableness” standard of some sort should apply. For example, needing to replace other components or adhesives in the process would probably cross that line, as are soft/hard locks that limit functionality when third party cells are used. What % of the device would be reasonable to disassemble to reach the cell?

[cmndr]

2 hours ago, Zodiark1593 said:

Unless solid state batteries are actually in consumer hands, their relevance in making laws involving batteries is questionable. 

That's why you have a carve out... 
What's the harm of carving out instances where the battery is expected to last 10 years (and potentially requiring the companies to provide a 10 year warranty on said battery)?

There is SOME value in making tightly integrated products that are highly water/dust resistant. And if the battery lasts FOREVER the downside matters less. 

I don't need a watch with an easily  replaceable battery if it lasts 20 years. I need a watch that won't feel so clunky that I'd never use it. 
 

[MageTank]

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

Of the brands mentioned so far the business product lineups either has a release latch/tap or standard screws for access. Annoying blocks is usually confined to consumer product lines except for things like the Microsoft Surface Pro.

 

Many internal batteries don't use cables and have a connector as part of the battery housing. Even soft pouch batteries, this is how HP does it for EliteBooks, connector not cable. Or is/was, been a while since I pulled one apart.

I have a dozen Clevo and TongFang models on my bench that all have standard screws/battery cables as well, nothing proprietary. I really wonder what models are actually using proprietary "security screws". If people are annoyed with Torx, they shouldn't be. I'd take Torx screws every single time, they are a lot harder to strip and should honestly be the standard, not Philips.

[PocketNerd]

8 hours ago, leclod said:

I do change the battery of my Iphone SE (2016) (I lost the battery analysis doing this, the ..%, but the phone works fine)

(I like the small form factor of that old phone)

I did change the battery (and camera) of the Iphone 8 of my gf with an original one and it was working as original, with the ..%.

I don't know anything about newer ones except that batteries can be bought and that it seems doable.

(I'm not saying it's easy, I did brick one or 2 Iphones)

 

 

The calibration/configuration process on iPhone batteries is a thing for iPhone 11 and up, plus a couple of iPhone X models.

 

Edit: And any Macbook with the T2 cheap, I believe.

[starsmine]

On 6/16/2023 at 9:02 AM, Kisai said:

They're all using security screws, sorry to burst your bubble. Both Dell and Asus I had to use my special "security screw" screw driver for Precision 5xxx and for the screws in the ASUS Zephyrus.

 

Oh yes, philips #00 and torqs5
so secure.

are you calling Torqs security screws? cause they are literally NOT. torqs is just the better screw head, phillips is literally designed to cam out and strip to prevent over-torquing by machines on an assembly line, a problem that does not exist anymore. 

You also brought up HP, you realize THEY Give you step by step instructions on how to take apart their laptops on their product pages, and the part number for every part so you can shop for it on their store (if they stock it) or on ebay.

I question your definition of user replaceable when a screwdriver is literally all you need for all laptops you brought up. Not some fancy tool, just something you can go to walmart and pick up off the shelf for a couple of bucks. 
 

[hishnash]

3 hours ago, Obioban said:

But, making glue and software locks illegal sounds good.

I think that depends on what you call glue, the pull tab bases solution tend to be the best way to attach batteries since they do not create a localised pressure spot not the battery if it goes spicy and starts to expand.   If you use skews of clips you need to place the battery into a frame that then needs to have extra space to expand when it goes spicy, but if you use flu strips you can design the case of the device to flex if the battery needs to expand so in normal use the device is thinner and lighter. 

As to software locks, sure any battery with a compatible battery controler for that device should work but I think it is completely fine for there to be something that tells the users that the battery controller is not original to the device and could have been `altered`.   Just like SMART info on a SSD the data provided by the battery controler such as the battery health can be altered, so if your buying a used laptop you likly care about the battery health (as a new battery might cost a good % of what you are paying).   The alternative would be to do what exists for cars and speedometers and make it a rather harsh crime to alter this info.  

[hishnash]

6 hours ago, Doobeedoo said:

Even both thin laptops and phones can have it removable. Won't really add any extra space.

depends a lot on how easy to remove you want the battery to be, if you have a water proof phone and you want to be able to swap the battery without any tools and still keep the water and dust resistance then this would require the device to get a LOT bigger.  

[Blademaster91]

8 hours ago, Kisai said:

They're all using security screws, sorry to burst your bubble. Both Dell and Asus I had to use my special "security screw" screw driver for Precision 5xxx and for the screws in the ASUS Zephyrus.

 

The Precision 7150/7250 uses regular philips screws, but the 7350 and later don't use the battery access bay, you have to take the back off and the battery is screwed in where the 7150 and 7250 doesn't use that type. The 7350 and later use the soft-pouch batteries like the rest of the models which they started doing in like 2018.

 

At any rate, it does not negate the point. "user replacable" means they don't require special tools, and all of dell's pouch-type batteries require special tools and care to not damage. You can replace them yourself, but often the connector on the battery is easily damaged.

 

All the crappy lattitude's are actually easier to replace the battery in because you pull out 6 screws, and the back comes off as one piece. The Precision 5000's have two additional security screws in the middle, and the Precision 7300+ are somewhere in between where the entire back comes off as one piece, but because it's big, it's harder to put back together.

 

Dell and Asus using torx and phillips aren't what I would consider security screws, you can easily buy a cheap driver set to open up a laptop, I don't know what this EU ban would include but phillips and torx are easy enough to get tools for.

I haven't looked into any of the newer Dell Precision or Latitude laptops as they are junk IMO as Dell decided to copy Lenovo and go for aesthetics over repairability and solder the RAM to the motherboard. The only manufacturer I know of that still sells business laptops with RAM slots is HP, and they provide repair instruction videos. Battery connectors aren't easy to damage if you're not ripping at the cable, I don't know what standard the EU wants to enforce but I'm fine with a cable, although it would be nice if all laptops had an access panel with a tool-less replaceable battery.

32 minutes ago, hishnash said:

depends a lot on how easy to remove you want the battery to be, if you have a water proof phone and you want to be able to swap the battery without any tools and still keep the water and dust resistance then this would require the device to get a LOT bigger.  

Not really, the Samsung Galaxy S5 had a replaceable battery, and that was when phones were smaller. If a company really wants to make sure the back of the phone doesn't come off then it could be held on with torx screws, gluing a phone shut isn't necessary to make it water proof.

[Doobeedoo]

1 hour ago, hishnash said:

depends a lot on how easy to remove you want the battery to be, if you have a water proof phone and you want to be able to swap the battery without any tools and still keep the water and dust resistance then this would require the device to get a LOT bigger.  

Yeah, depending how easy to remove you want it. Though maybe not like laptop external brick that clips for phones, though in the end, depends how after it's slotted it can auto seal too.

[starsmine]

@Kisai
http://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Manual/c07856708.pdf

Quote

Remove the two Phillips M2.5×7.2 screws (1) and the two Torx5 M2.0×4.0 screws (2) that secure the bottom cover to the computer.

Quote

. Remove the 8 Phillips M2.0 × 4.5 screws (2) that secure the battery to the compute

Damn "security" Philips and torx5 screw heads preventing me from swapping the battery

try a different model
http://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Manual/c08145360.pdf

Quote

. Remove the two Phillips M2.0 × 5.0 captive screws (1) and the two Phillips M2.0 × 7.5 captive screws that secure the bottom cover to the computer.

Quote

2. Remove the five Phillips M2.0 × 3.5 screws (2) that secure the battery to the computer.

 

gahd damn, again Phillips screws preventing me from swapping the battery


let me try a 3rd family
https://kaas.hpcloud.hp.com/pdf-public/pdf_5957172_en-US-1.pdf

Quote

2. Remove the seven Phillips M2.0 × 5.0 screws (1) that secure the bottom cover to the computer.

Quote

Remove the six Phillips M2.0 × 5.0 screws (2) that secure the battery to the comput

FOILED AGAIN


now im not saying there isnt an HP laptop that exists that requires you to destroy the laptop to get to the battery, but I am not aware of any.


now you brought up the asus zepher by name

please point to me where the security screw exists?
https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/GamingNB/GA401II/E16079_GA401_Upgrade_Guide_WEB.pdf?model=rog zephyrus g14 

You mentioned dell 5xxx by name
again
please point out to me where the security scew exists
https://www.dell.com/support/manuals/en-us/precision-17-5770-laptop/precision-5770-laptop-sm/screw-list?guid=guid-cc648b28-fbf9-4a6f-bb11-4c6c2fa3d08a&lang=en-us

 

Let me try a different dell 5xxxx
https://www.dell.com/support/manuals/en-us/precision-15-5550-laptop/precission_5550_sm/screw-list?guid=guid-cc648b28-fbf9-4a6f-bb11-4c6c2fa3d08a&lang=en-us


DAMN foiled for the last time by phillips heads.

[Salv8 (sam)]

13 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

Inb4 Apple makes the battery removable though still under the bottom cover of the chassis and then makes the bottom cover harder to open with more screws or more obscure screws.

screws are too easy, apple likes to think different.

my bet? they'll weld the cases together. can't open it without a grinder!

[Kisai]

3 hours ago, starsmine said:

Oh yes, philips #00 and torqs5
so secure.

are you calling Torqs security screws? cause they are literally NOT. torqs is just the better screw head, philleps is literally designed to cam out and strip to prevent over-torquing by machines on an assembly line, a problem that does not exist anymore. 
 

The dell techs I've talked to told me they have to buy new screw drivers every few times they deal with the torx#5 on the dell precision 5500's, and it's been my experience that they're over-torqued (at least one laptop arrived from the factory impossible to open due to corner philips screw over-torqued it couldn't be opened without drilling it.)

 

I'm not saying Dell's the worst. The ASUS was worse because ASUS wouldn't even sell me the battery. Dell you can buy the batteries right off their own website and the instructions are on the site. ASUS does neither.

 

[starsmine]

3 hours ago, Kisai said:

The dell techs I've talked to told me they have to buy new screw drivers every few times they deal with the torx#5 on the dell precision 5500's, and it's been my experience that they're over-torqued (at least one laptop arrived from the factory impossible to open due to corner philips screw over-torqued it couldn't be opened without drilling it.)

 

I'm not saying Dell's the worst. The ASUS was worse because ASUS wouldn't even sell me the battery. Dell you can buy the batteries right off their own website and the instructions are on the site. ASUS does neither.

 

You cant buy batteries off of HP as a normal consumer either, but they give you the part number and all compatible part numbers. Its a non issue.
The battery control module is on the board, not in the battery cell. 

well you can, but their stock for that part of the shop is non existant

https://parts.hp.com/hppartsIGSO/Search_Results.aspx?mscssid=88F32C398E15457B9A45DE61AD5FBE6B&SearchIn=Keyword&ProductName=battery&SearchType=A&searchvalue=A
like none of these goes into any of the lines I posted 

What you do is go

(6) Battery (3 cell, 41 Whr) 4 cell, 45 Whr, 3.11 Ah M73476-006 6 cell, 68 Whr, 3.11 Ah M73478-006

I want to replace or upgrade to a M73478-006

And go. let me just put "M73478-006" into Google and find someone selling that part.
like it exists in their catalog, but 

 

also It needs to be added, Overtorquing a Philips means you cam out, as in the torque does not go into the screw, as in it doesnt damage what its attached to, rather it damages the head.
That you can or can not take it out is completely irrelevant to the concept of torque here.

And I dont know what dell tech is saying they need a new screw driver for torx5
every screwdriver set that I can think of that isnt JUST phillips/flat contains torx because torx is common industry standard, not like some bullshit y wing nintendo screw or a screw with the hole in the center. I never search out the bit, I just have them. A lot of them, never shopped for one. 

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, Kisai said:

The dell techs I've talked to told me they have to buy new screw drivers every few times they deal with the torx#5 on the dell precision 5500's, and it's been my experience that they're over-torqued (at least one laptop arrived from the factory impossible to open due to corner philips screw over-torqued it couldn't be opened without drilling it.)

What? I have the official Compaq (now HP) technician screwdriver that was originally my fathers and it's as old as me or older. No bit has been replaced ever and there is no damage on them, buy better tools or.. this isn't true.

 

It's this btw for anyone who cares

[Kisai]

7 minutes ago, leadeater said:

What? I have the official Compaq (now HP) technician screwdriver that was originally my fathers and it's as old as me or older. No bit has been replaced ever and there is no damage on them, buy better tools or.. this isn't true.

 

It's this btw for anyone who cares

Just saying, that was what I was told by several dell techs. The one that pointed this out said something like "I only get like 5 uses of this screw driver before it has to be replaced." Which was in regard to the torx screws.

 

I had to buy a "smartphone repair kit" from walmart to be able to open the Dell's with the torx screws, and hadn't replaced it, having generally had the paid Dell techs open the 5500's and only resorted to my tools for swapping the SDD.

[starsmine]

7 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Just saying, that was what I was told by several dell techs. The one that pointed this out said something like "I only get like 5 uses of this screw driver before it has to be replaced." Which was in regard to the torx screws.

 

100% sure you misunderstood them. I have never had to replace any torx screwdriver outside of losing it.
I have never heard of anyone needing to replace their torx screwdriver.

  

7 minutes ago, Kisai said:

I had to buy a "smartphone repair kit" from walmart to be able to open the Dell's with the torx screws, and hadn't replaced it, having generally had the paid Dell techs open the 5500's and only resorted to my tools for swapping the SDD.

Yup, labeled that way because people dont know what they are looking for.

people dont come to target or walmart and ask me "where are your precision screw drivers"
they ask me for it by the wrong name for the task they want it for

just like people asking me for "samsung charging cable" like that means jack shit.

[Kisai]

4 minutes ago, starsmine said:

100% sure you misunderstood them. I have never had to replace any torx screwdriver outside of losing it.

Nope. The both the screws are damaged out of the factory and the bits get damaged to try and remove them. These were on Precision 5520's and 5530.

 

My assumption is that the first dell tech that told me this, was just grumpy about having to work on the 5500's. A second dell tech had to come back three times to fix one of them because of the over-torqued screws on the cooling, and that he stripped the screws trying to remove it.

 

Who knows, maybe there was a whole production sequence of over-tightened screwed, since the business had a mixture of 5520's and 5530's each with their own problems.