EU ban on non-removable laptop and smartphone(?) batteries

[leadeater]

4 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Nope. The both the screws are damaged out of the factory and the bits get damaged to try and remove them. These were on Precision 5520's and 5530.

 

If the screw heads are damaged this won't damage the driver bits, and if they are damaged enough the bits won't even go in the head. But this seems incredibly unlikely to be real since everything is put in using torque spec tools and machines so like... 

 

In either case the bits in the screw driver I mentioned you'd never be able to damage, they are too strong. You'd sheer them off before rounding or bending them in any way, and if you can sheer them off then you aren't using your hands.

[starsmine]

anways for future reference
THESE are security bits


Not torx,
not hex
not Robinson

those pieces of shit. 

Torx/hex are just things that exist in all precision sets
Likere his is one from walmart
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Hyper-Tough-44-Piece-Precision-Multi-type-Screwdriver-Bits-Set-TS99913A/664156679?athbdg=L1103&from=/search
Here is one from Harbor freight
https://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/tool-sets/screwdriver-sets/precision/32-piece-screwdriver-set-with-tweezers-97517.html

 

[jagdtigger]

11 hours ago, hishnash said:

there to be something that tells the users that the battery controller is not original to the device and could have been `altered`.

Hell no, manufacturers will use that slippery-slope as an excuse to cripple a device with a non-factory battery.....

  

4 hours ago, leadeater said:

You'd sheer them off before rounding or bending them in any way, and if you can sheer them off then you aren't using your hands.

Pretty much this. The only place i know about that have that issue are body shops where they have to deal with rusted-in screws that require unreasonable amounts of force to remove (drilling or propane/acetylene torch isnt always an option)

[suicidalfranco]

EXCELLENT

 

Would yo see this directive target also Bluetooth ear pieces

[hishnash]

3 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Hell no, manufacturers will use that slippery-slope as an excuse to cripple a device with a non-factory battery.....

 

Putting a warning saying "batter statistics cant be varied and may have been tampered with" is not that bad and the law can simply say that is all you can present so no slipper slope.     If you don't want that then make it directly illegal to tamper with this info just like it is illegal to tamper with the tachometer on a car (sure you can due it and some second and car sales people might but most are not going to due to the risk of going to jail). 

 

[hishnash]

14 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

 

 

Not really, the Samsung Galaxy S5 had a replaceable battery, and that was when phones were smaller. If a company really wants to make sure the back of the phone doesn't come off then it could be held on with torx screws, gluing a phone shut isn't necessary to make it water proof.

That phone did not keep a water-tight (if you can call 1m water tight) after replacing the battery unless you got a fresh adhesive gasskit.  Unless you have a screw ever cm your not going to get a strong enough seal to deal with more than a few cm of water.    

Using cheap each to replace adhivie seals is not anti repair and does not make it impossible for users to really the battery,  using glue (not pull strips) to stick the battery to the users screen (like modern Samsung phones) is bad however.  

[doubleflower]

On 6/16/2023 at 5:41 PM, jboman1980 said:

Summary

EU will ban non-removable laptop batteries. Takes effect in 2027.

 

 

My thoughts

The obvious: what will Apple do?

 

Sources

https://www.newsendip.com/laptop-and-smartphone-batteries-sold-in-the-e-u-will-need-to-be-easily-removable-by-users/

Most modern laptops (outside of Apple) had removable batteries, as they are basically fitted internally into the chassis with screws, and it doesn't take more than a cheap pry tool + screwdriver to replace them.  

[doubleflower]

On 6/16/2023 at 5:41 PM, jboman1980 said:

Summary

EU will ban non-removable laptop batteries. Takes effect in 2027.

 

 

My thoughts

The obvious: what will Apple do?

 

Sources

https://www.newsendip.com/laptop-and-smartphone-batteries-sold-in-the-e-u-will-need-to-be-easily-removable-by-users/

IMHO this directive feels a bit unnecessary as most phones (even those sealed ones) are quite easy to remove with a heat gun and a $20 phone repair kit, along with some elbow grease of course.  The main issue with smartphone battery replacements is that most phone manufacturers usually don't sell original replacement batteries directly, which means most end users or even independent repair shops had to settle with either third party, remanufactured batteries from shady Chinese resellers with dodgy capacity claims which usually has much less real capacity than original ones.

 

We had phones with sealed/glued batteries for years and it seems that such designs have never impacted phone repair shops at all.

 

Maybe that's just me, but I'd rather have the ability to buy original parts from manufacturers at a reasonable price (a lot of them are sold with a ridiculous markup) instead of forcing 'removable' batteries on consumer electronics

[doubleflower]

On 6/16/2023 at 7:24 PM, jaslion said:

Yeah these were mostly fine to have that replaced. However the home button was already bound here and if that needed replacing you might as well toss the phone.

 

Ever since the 10 they SLAMMED DOWN HARD. Nowadays it's ALWAYS more expensive to fix an iphone than just give it to apple to fix and often it'll cost ya a new one.

 

It's been made impossible to repair without their unique software. Some parts have leaked of it allowing the older ones to be fixed somewhat but it's all tightly locked down.

Knowing Chinese craftiness I would probably wager that it wouldn't be long if those artificial repair locks are bypassed, and you can already buy specialized programmers that restore certain features like True Tone: 

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005218892869.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.1.534b308aSVs3KT&algo_pvid=bea19d59-e6ca-487b-88ad-2786379e029c&algo_exp_id=bea19d59-e6ca-487b-88ad-2786379e029c-0&pdp_npi=3%40dis!MYR!431.28!340.7!!!!!%402138a07d16870101111751538d0c77!12000032563608961!sea!MY!0&curPageLogUid=w8Bs6eAM2bMZ

[Zodiark1593]

5 hours ago, hishnash said:

That phone did not keep a water-tight (if you can call 1m water tight) after replacing the battery unless you got a fresh adhesive gasskit.  Unless you have a screw ever cm your not going to get a strong enough seal to deal with more than a few cm of water.    

Using cheap each to replace adhivie seals is not anti repair and does not make it impossible for users to really the battery,  using glue (not pull strips) to stick the battery to the users screen (like modern Samsung phones) is bad however.  

I don’t personally mind an adhesive gasket, so long as it’s not the only thing holding the screen in place. 
 

Examples, the iPhone uses a combination of a gasket, and screws to secure the screen in place. The gasket isn’t quite so ornery to cut through, and if for w/e reason, you lack adhesives, or the skill to get it in place perfectly (with the precut gaskets, you get only one in a repair kit), the only thing you lose is water resistance, as the screws will hold the screen in place. 
 

Not sure about newer Samsung phones, but the S7 uses exclusively adhesives to secure both the back panel, and display. There’s no screws to hold these components in, so you need to take the time to ensure both the panels are fully flush, and that the adhesives are holding. I’d much prefer the relative guarantee that screws provide. 

[jagdtigger]

6 hours ago, hishnash said:

Unless you have a screw ever cm your not going to get a strong enough seal to deal with more than a few cm of water.    

Yeah no, S5 didnt had any screws but could handle quite more than a few cm of water. IMO needing anything more than what the s5 could do is pretty much just dumb.....

[CerealExperimentsLain]

On 6/16/2023 at 7:21 AM, Blademaster91 said:

Most of the Dell,HP, Lenovo, Asus laptops with a decent design are screwing their batteries in, all you need to do to access the battery is undo a few phillips screws to remove the bottom panel, while that still isn't as nice as a battery door or easily swapped batteries at least most people could be capable of changing it.

The only one making the battery unremovable is Apple using proprietary screws and gluing the battery in.

The Asus 15" M515 I'm on right now is just like this.  It doesn't have a classic 'Snap On' battery, but all I have to do is flip it over, remove 9 screws, snap off the bottom plate, disconnect the battery, undo any screws securing it, replace the battery and reverse all previous steps.  It's not rocket scence.

 

I'm perfectly fine with this level of difficulty, you only need a screw driver and some basic instructions to keep the user from screwing up unsnapping bottom plate.  Easy to keep this laptop going once the battery dies.

 

It's when they solder and glue that stuff in so that you have to destroy or or need expensive tools, that's the problem.

[Thaldor]

16 hours ago, starsmine said:

THESE are security bits

Not really. At one point when they were more propriety heads then yes but as their patents have passed and all that and you can buy them from well stocked hardware stores they are no more secure than Torx or good old flathead. Like triwig comes with almost any "mobile/gaming" centered driver set today because Nintendo.

 

What ARE security screws:

- One way screws; Screws with head that is designed so there's only ridge against which you can twist them to the tightening way and smooth ramp the other way.

- Shear screws; Screws with heads that snap off when tightened.

- Clutch bolts; Bolts with freely spinning head before magnet or other key feature in the driver locks the actual bolt to the head.

- Keyed screws; Screws like four hole heads that have unique hole patterns in the head.

- Actually proprietary screws; Screws with heads you cannot get drivers from anywhere else except from the manufacturer (who owns the patent and doesn't license it to anywhere) or some shady market with other more shady things to buy. Something like the Key-Rex security screws that have basicly unique key drivers.

 

Notice: Nothing like these are actually secure. If some company says "it's for the security", they are lying because if it was actually for security, they wouldn't use something that can be opened again, they would weld that thing shut. Why? Because there basicly isn't a screw that cannot be opened again, even the shear off screws you can just J-B weld something on top of it and tension from that and vóla, it's open. Anything with keyed head, just jam something that fits in and there you go precision flatheads are always good starting point). Also you can just also drill the head off and in you go.

"But welding it shut would make it unrepairable", I thought we were talking about security here, not how some monkey can use an expensive screwdriver to open the thing easily. If you want something secure, it stays closed, if it can be opened, it is not secure.

[williamcll]

Pretty sure most non-apple laptops have batteries as easily removable as the ones on framework.

[hishnash]

1 hour ago, williamcll said:

Pretty sure most non-apple laptops have batteries as easily removable as the ones on framework.

Depends a lot what you call easy removable, modern apple laptops use pull strip adhesive (like phones). 

removing them is not that difficult but can be fiddle if the strip break,  screw in batteries have their own issues if they are not replaced before they start to swell as they risk having a much more focused pressure point around the hardened mounting points, the last thing you want on a battery that swells up is for it to have a focused point of pressure this morally means batteries with such ridge frames need to have internal space within teh frame to expand reducing the total battery capacity. 

[jagdtigger]

5 minutes ago, hishnash said:

screw in batteries have their own issues if they are not replaced before they start to swell as they risk having a much more focused pressure point around the hardened mounting points

This could be mitigated by making the connection between the mounting points and the battery elastic...

[hishnash]

30 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

This could be mitigated by making the connection between the mounting points and the battery elastic...

that elastic is volume that could be battery, quite a lot of it as you could not have any battery bencher the screw mounting points. Using removable thin film adhesive is better. 

[Dracarris]

On 6/16/2023 at 12:57 PM, Kisai said:

You mean "what will everyone, including Apple do?"

Wow. The first comment with some brains, after scrolling past dozen of anti-Apple circlejerk comments that read like a 13yo has written them.

[Dracarris]

On 6/16/2023 at 1:24 PM, jaslion said:

Ever since the 10 they SLAMMED DOWN HARD. Nowadays it's ALWAYS more expensive to fix an iphone than just give it to apple to fix and often it'll cost ya a new one.

Yeah, no. I fixed the battery on a 10 myself for about 40$ of parts cost at ifixit.

 

For the recent generations Apple offers parts themselves and the prices for those are a fraction of what a new phone would cost.

An no, you are NOT required to rent their tools.

[jagdtigger]

51 minutes ago, hishnash said:

that elastic is volume that could be battery, quite a lot of it as you could not have any battery bencher the screw mounting points. Using removable thin film adhesive is better. 

You could also think and see if they make a plastic frame and wrap it with elastic wrapping material the battery will have room to swell without loosing much of the volume....

[Dracarris]

On 6/16/2023 at 3:33 PM, thevictor390 said:

Undo some screws, go around the edges with a pry tool, and peel off a mild adhesive. It takes less than half an hour.

Sounds a lot like what you have to do with current Macbooks? For me this is still user replaceable, especially if you only need to do this every 5 years or so. Minus software locks of course.

[Supreme Calamitas]

They could go a step further and force these manufacturers to make parts available. And limit the markup they put on them.

[Donut417]

1 hour ago, Supreme Calamitas said:

They could go a step further and force these manufacturers to make parts available. And limit the markup they put on them.

The issue is when you increase costs of doing business the business increaeses costs of the consumer. What you propose increases costs. I think a better solution is allowing third parties to make parts. No more software or hardware locks. The only part that should have to come from the OEM would be the main board of the device. Even then they could provide schematics so that those who have the knowledge could potentially fix the boards rather than replace them. 

 

 

[jagdtigger]

11 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

The issue is when you increase costs of doing business the business increaeses costs of the consumer.

Well if fairphone can do it, i have an FP4 (the one with the bigger ram and storage) and its pretty good for the price....
(Was forced to upgrade from my S5 by apps getting pointlessly fat, some apps use ridiculous amounts of storage compared to the almost bare-bones functionality.)

[Donut417]

6 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Well if fairphone can do it,

But will Apple and Samsung do it? Probably not. Shareholders wont take less. At the end Shareholders are the only ones who matter in the relationship. I mean they legally own the company, so the company has to do what the shareholders want. 

 

If the EU did force the issue, smaller companies would maybe pull out. Larger companies would increase prices of products and likely offer less of a variety. Shelf space for parts costs money.