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Words aren't enough. We need ACTION.

This is one of the things I will ACTUALLY link for friends

Everyone, Creator初音ミク Hatsune Miku Google commercial.

 

 

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I wanted to add some food for thought on a subject that is somewhat related.  I work HVAC and all of the people with actual talent and *diagnostic skills are retiring and being replaced with people that literally have almost no idea what they are doing.  One of the biggest companies here in Denver tells almost every single customer that their blower motor is about to go out, that is if they think they can get away with it.  They will come to your door for $29 and pull your squirrel cage out and "oh boy good thing I'm here.... look at this" then show you some oil on the shaft of the motor which will be on every one of them because it's from normal operation.  Then they charge you $1-2k to put in a $100-200 motor.  Also there is always someone close by to come and quote you a new system install because it's not worth putting that money into such an old system and they can do it all for $20-40k (yes I've seen these quotes).  This is just one example but it shows exactly the business model these companies have.  The local radio Trouble Shooter advertises for them and say's they're the best, because they pay enormous advertising costs. (we pay $2k/mo for a radio show that is on once a week).  So these companies are more than willing to burn customers and lie to them because there's always another around the corner that might fall for it and they claim that they have to charge so much because of their business model.  It really pisses me off and I think it's somewhat related to this right to repair, but at the same time not really.

 

*(oh and there was a big shit show at the radio station because both our show and theirs are owned by the same people and someone called the show and complained about being ripped off, didn't even mention their name but said they were only supposed to charge $29, needless to say our guy caved and was pushed out of his slot soon after)

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I still don't really get it. I've repaired my electronics before already, how do I not already have a right to repair? He talked about ways in apple doesn't out right support repairs, such as overcharging for repairs.. but doesn't explain what these new laws would do exactly. Force apple to charge less for making repairs? I don't get it.

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7 minutes ago, poochyena said:

I still don't really get it. I've repaired my electronics before already, how do I not already have a right to repair? He talked about ways in apple doesn't out right support repairs, such as overcharging for repairs.. but doesn't explain what these new laws would do exactly. Force apple to charge less for making repairs? I don't get it.

It requires Apple, for example, to provide you with the parts and manuals required for your repair at a reasonable price and do it whether you are an AASP or not.

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It would be pretty cool if LTT could colab with Rossmann to create some Right to Repair merch on lttstore.com where a portion of the revenue goes to the MA direct ballot initiative.

 

16 minutes ago, poochyena said:

I still don't really get it. I've repaired my electronics before already, how do I not already have a right to repair? He talked about ways in apple doesn't out right support repairs, such as overcharging for repairs.. but doesn't explain what these new laws would do exactly. Force apple to charge less for making repairs? I don't get it.

No.  There is no intention to force manufactures to offer any additional services.  Right to repair legislation seeks to ensure third parties have the ability to purchase parts needed for repairs with no-strings-attached (namely by preventing manufacturers from blocking their sale and doing away with bogus programs like the AASP), enable third parties to share documentation (eg schematics and diagrams) which support repairs, prevent manufacturers from needlessly serializing parts to make them incompatible with replacements, and ensure the DMCA provides exemptions for modifications to devices intended for repair.  Believe it or not, none of those things are protected and many manufactures (not just Apple) abuse them regularly.  I might have missed a thing or two, but the point is that Right to Repair is not about requiring more from manufacturers - it's about preventing them from harming consumers and third party repair services.

 

Here's some potentially helpful videos Louis Rossmann has created:

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21 minutes ago, poochyena said:

I still don't really get it. I've repaired my electronics before already, how do I not already have a right to repair? He talked about ways in apple doesn't out right support repairs, such as overcharging for repairs.. but doesn't explain what these new laws would do exactly. Force apple to charge less for making repairs? I don't get it.

I am no expert, but the laws would address few if not more of the issues and hurdles that would hamper or out right stop repairing devices. The few that come to mind are Serialization, over zealous "IP", and  availability of parts. In brief:

  • Serialization is akin to what console makers had started doing with unique ID for parts. and having Firmware in the device that would refuse to work with a part that is not the original one. I hate to use apple as an example but they already are doing this. as there was a guy who swapped 2 iPhones batteries which prompted the iPhone to display a warning that the user is not using a genuine (I think?) battery. Apple says that this to keep the Quality in check. but it is clear that it is hurting repair shops if they cant even use genuine apple parts from an iPhone
  • the so called over zealous "IP" is when you cant stop people from buying parts per se. you add an IP say your company logo on parts regardless on how small a part can be. to have the customs to cease any parts being imported from dumpster diving and retrieval of parts form defective or broken devices.
  • Availability issue is when big companies require that the chip and parts makers. to not sell the chip to anyone but them. As such you cant buy the parts and have to rely on buying the device or donor device (and hope that the part you need is not dead as well). This again makes it so if you just say needed to replace a broken screen you have to either buy a whole new phone and rip it off that. or buy a bunch of donor phones to get a genuine part. or you have to rely on 3rs party parts that may or may not work as well as the genuine article.

And there is more to the story. if want to know more than I even know look up Jon Deer and their lockdown approach to repair of farming vehicle they go much more with software lockdown from what I last heard.

 

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No one noticed how Linus said he bought a new house yet he recently also installed a new car door opener in a recent video? Maybe he's finally realized how bad of an idea it was to move into a cul-de-sac.

 

15 minutes ago, poochyena said:

I still don't really get it. I've repaired my electronics before already, how do I not already have a right to repair? He talked about ways in apple doesn't out right support repairs, such as overcharging for repairs.. but doesn't explain what these new laws would do exactly. Force apple to charge less for making repairs? I don't get it.

Comes down to supply, if 3rd parties can get oem parts or equivalent after market parts w/o jumping threw hoops it's easy to do. So someone with a dead USB port on a android would be able to get them replaced cheaply regardless of brand however not so for Apple. Depending on warranty laws where you live nothing is stopping you from taking your own device apart but that is useless if you don't have access to the parts needed. Apple sure as hell won't sell you the parts, that's the problem and reasoning behind right to repair.

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If you wanna know more, Louis made last week to short videos about those questions. Short answer: this is capitalism, competence is good, competence drives innovation. When a company has the monopoly and the exclusive right to repair a device, it will be more profitable for them to try to sell you a new one. That is a conflict of interest that should not be legal. Is like hospital (privates ones) owning a mortuary. They cannot own both because there is conflict and the consumer will be damaged. If nobody can repair their devices the same way (with the same or almost the same chances of success) then there is no competence, fixed prices, bad practices. 

Apple and other companies go out of there way to make devices not fixables (design choices with this objective in mind) unless you have special equipment that only they have. 

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I am all for right to repair. OEM parts should be able to be purchased without being refurbished, or from some sketchy person down the street. The issue is that apple would upsell the screens like crazy. A authorized service provider for iphone repairs like a ubreakifix can do OEM iphone screens... 12, 12 pro, and pro max being $339, $339, $379 respectively. Which I believe apple takes part in where that price takes place, with only a 4 hour turn around time... But anything else apple, we cant get official parts for, we can get bad parts from places or lifting on ipad and customers coming back complaining about it. If parts could be sold to the public, they would be upwards of 150. Compared to my 2013 smart car... that i can buy almost anything for it online for almost nothing.

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I guess the framing is throwing me off, since the framing "right to repair" implies there is some sort of personal freedom we lack. Linus even starts it off as if its some sort of lack of personal freedom... but its not that at all. We have complete rights to repair our electronics. What I gather is being demanded is for companies to supply resources to make repairs easier. This is about regulating companies, not personal freedom or rights. Not against the meat of it all, just the framing of it all really puts me off.

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I understand why titles are like this but there are times where you need to make the title descriptive and not clickbaity and this is one of them.

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1 minute ago, poochyena said:

We have complete rights to repair our electronics.

That right is being infringed upon and deliberately made difficult to realize by electronics companies.

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2 minutes ago, poochyena said:

We have complete rights to repair our electronics. What I gather is being demanded is for companies to supply resources to make repairs easier. This is about regulating companies, not personal freedom or rights. Not against the meat of it all, just the framing of it all really puts me off.

No you don't, at least with Apple you don't. You can't walk into a Apple store and ask for the screen for your now broken brand new iPhone 12 Max. So really you don't have the right to repair. Where as using Linus's car analogy you can go out and buy then replace the windshield or any window of your brand new car, so long it's not a Tesla.

 

Then there is software locking where Android users (specifically) can not easily load custom/stock ROMs of Android onto their phones, as a user who owns and builds my own computer I wouldn't want to be told by those parts companies I'm forced to use a windows 10 with custom bloatware I can't remove. You can go out buy a brand new computer download a windows 10 iso off of Microsoft's website and do a fresh install removing all the crap the seller threw onto your computer. Something you can't do with your smartphone.

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15 minutes ago, aleamaro791 said:

Apple and other companies go out of there way to make devices not fixables (design choices with this objective in mind) unless you have special equipment that only they have. 

The `special equipment` you refer to is software tools, there isn other else that is limited at this time. Yes you might need to get a special BGA desoldering rig set up but that is not at all something you can't buy it will just cost you a lot and that is fine. 

People see something soldered and say it is anti repair... that is not at all the case as long as the parts can be purchased then it is 100% Pro repair.  

I think this sentiment is one of the things that is holding back right to repair legislation, the old white duds in gov offices are easily persuaded that the Right to repair movement is all about facing you to have `user` (unskilled) repair, this makes it very easy to convince them to vote against it, apple just turns up with a mockup of an iPhone that is has every chip socketed (it would be about the size of a laptop) and asked them if they want to switch to it. 

Fundamentally right to repair should not at all attempt to have any impact on the deign of the product (if it does then it i will be easy to get any such laws kicked out), it should only focus the the ability to (within a readable time of release) be able to get parts and the needed repair manuals. The repair process can be complex (as it is in the car industry) some repair operations are going to require you to buy costly tools (as it is in the car industry) and require you to train and learn how to use those tools. Right to repair has nothing at all to do with user-upgradability or modular design.
 

4 minutes ago, TTRaven said:

If parts could be sold to the public, they would be upwards of 150.

For sure there is some expectation that apple would sell these parts at cost if apple is forced to provide all the parts, at best the price of the parts to make any given product summed up will be = to buying that entire product, otherwise there will be vendors out there buying up parts to make iPhones and selling them as new.  For the legislation to work it either needs to not have any control over price or have some statement that does not attempt to force the likes of apple into this situation, something like (sum of all parts to make the device can not come to more than 1.5* the price of the device) however if we then look at products like PlayStation, or amazon alexa that are sold at a loss how do you deal with that? is Sony forced to sell you a Zen APU for less money than they paid for it? 

And in the end there is also the question of for how long should companies to continue to make these parts, would sony still be required to keep a factory running to make spare parts for the original playstation? for cars this is solved in that your going to go to a machine shop for old old cars and they will build it out of raw metal. The the car space it is possible to do this since ford own the IP for the main axel so when they no longer want to make it they can provide plans and anyone can make it but in the tec space Sony don't own the CPU IP of the original playstation they can't just go and provide the plans, and even if thy did would they be required to also provide you with a very very very old chip making factory so that you can make a chip that matches or would they need to but in the R&D effort to work out how to make a modern chip work in place of the part you can't replace. And if they do put that R&D effort are they free to then charge for it? 

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10 minutes ago, Leenus said:

That right is being infringed upon and deliberately made difficult to realize by electronics companies.

Being made difficult to repair (eg not socketed etc) is nothing at all to do with right to repair. Something that is 100% soldered and very complexly soldered can still be 100% supporting your right to repair it is just harder to repair. The same is true in cars not every person on the side of the street and take and engine apart and put it backtogher without screwing up.

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9 minutes ago, poochyena said:

guess the framing is throwing me off, since the framing "right to repair" implies there is some sort of personal freedom we lack.

because it is. You cant repair your farming gear without the vendor in this case John Deere approval. this is the future that we will have as companies try to maximize profit by ensuring that repair is more costly than buying a new one. Every tactic that John Deere has employed is being followed by tech companies to make it near impossible to repair devices. and the fear is that if this left unchecked you may endup buying a car with no hood to ensure that you have "the optimal experience from insert car vendor name" or dont hurt yourself or others when working on your own car.

 

Like you said. Repair used to be a given. any appliances would have full schematics, repair guide, and even part list for you to repair your own devices. but that is now long eroded and even parts are not for sale anymore. Hence the R2R

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28 minutes ago, Leenus said:

That right is being infringed upon and deliberately made difficult to realize by electronics companies.

how is it being infringed upon? How is it "deliberately made difficult"? They just aren't going out of their way to make it easy.

26 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

You can't walk into a Apple store and ask for the screen for your now broken brand new iPhone 12 Max. So really you don't have the right to repair.

this makes absolutely zero sense. Yes, you DO have the right to repair your broken iPhone 12 Max. Just because Apple won't just give you replacement parts doesn't mean you don't have the right. Writing laws to force Apple to sell your replacement parts is completely separate to having the right to repair your product.

18 minutes ago, OhBoy said:

You cant repair your farming gear without the vendor in this case John Deere approval.

Why not? What is stopping that from happening?

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26 minutes ago, poochyena said:
  1.  Yes, you DO have the right to repair your broken iPhone 12 Max. Just because Apple won't just give you replacement parts doesn't mean you don't have the right. Writing laws to force Apple to sell your replacement parts is completely separate to having the right to repair your product.
  2. Why not? What is stopping that from happening?

The same thing prevents successful repair in both instances.

 

Apple wont allow your 12 Max to work properly (software updates denied, touch-id doesnt work and a nag screen to name  a few things) If you replace the screen yourself.

 

In John deer's case the tractor will either fail to start, or run in "limp mode" until cleared by a factory/repair technician and their software.

 

The thing in common in both cases is a software limitation. Even if you have a physical hardware and knowage to do the repair. You'll be unsuccessful because of a manufacturer software limitation.

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9 minutes ago, poochyena said:

this makes absolutely zero sense. Yes, you DO have the right to repair your broken iPhone 12 Max. Just because Apple won't just give you replacement parts doesn't mean you don't have the right. Writing laws to force Apple to sell your replacement parts is completely separate to having the right to repair your product.

Then you are missing the whole point of the right to repair movement. You do have the ability to repair your device, however it's only the ability to do so under Apples conditions, if you don't like their conditions then you can not get your device repaired without it having the risk of being bricked, therefore you do not have the right to repair but the ability to repair it. So if Apple decides tomorrow all devices sold that day on wards will now have a $10,000 repair cost for anything wrong with the device vs the $1400 for a new unit and remove apple care or set a flat fee of $2000 with, you still have the ability to repair but not the right to repair because you can not repair it elsewhere or on your own with buy able parts. In order to have the right to repair you should be able to refuse a option and go threw a cheaper/different method, which simply can't be done at least for Apple as you are forced to a Apple store or a authorized repair shop that likely costs almost as much, and assuming they don't have to ship it to Apple anyways or wait for parts.

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3 minutes ago, The_Hatta said:

Apple wont allow your 12 Max to work properly (software updates denied, touch-id doesnt work and a nag screen to name  a few things) If you replace the screen yourself.

 

In John deer's case the tractor will either fail to start, or run in "limp mode" until cleared by a factory/repair technician and their software.

THOSE are what i'd call right to repair issues

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2 hours ago, poochyena said:

I still don't really get it. I've repaired my electronics before already, how do I not already have a right to repair? He talked about ways in apple doesn't out right support repairs, such as overcharging for repairs.. but doesn't explain what these new laws would do exactly. Force apple to charge less for making repairs? I don't get it.

Right now Apple, John Deere, and many others have gone to manufacturers of chips, such as Texas Instruments, Intersil, and others, and said "Don't sell this chip to anyone but us!". For example, the ISL6259 is a totally normal charging chip which controls when to send power to your battery or not to via USB. This was used in macbooks up until around 2016, when Apple decided went to Intersil and said "Don't sell this chip to anyone but us!" and Inersil said "uh...that's an industry standard chip, we can't do that." so Apple said "fine! Reverse pins 2 and 3, then only sell THAT chip to us!" and thus the ISL9240 was created. The ISL9240 cannot be bought *anywhere* but it's literally just an ISL6259 with the pins in a different order.

 

That kind of shit is what Right to Repair is asking for: when Apple, John Deere, and other companies pull shit like that, they CANNOT tell Intersil "Don't sell this chip to anyone!". Instead, that ISL9240 must be available in the supply chain at a reasonable cost. Whether that is via Apple directly, or from Intersil, someone must sell the chip and someone must sell the chip for the < $5 price tag it actually has (none of this "it's for sale!...for $300!" bullshit).

 

Right to Repair does not care who stocks the part, only that the part IS sold on the market by someone at a fair and reasonable price. It does not require anyone to keep stock of parts long term, and no bill I'm aware of has yet realized that they need to include a provision that full schematics/designs for chips no longer being manufactured must be published somewhere so that another company can begin manufacturing them again if needed. But whatever, baby steps.

 

Make sense now?

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Keep in mind that as consumers we can choose to patronize companies that have decent practices.

Personally I am a fan of the Dell approach. I will be the first to admit that their support isn't really great (unless you buy prosupport), but hear me out.  Certified shops might be able to service my laptop inside of the warranty, but I am free to use an uncertified shop or attempt my own repair if I wish. If I want a genuine replacement part, I can scavenge or I can log into their support chat and ask them to ship me a given part number for a fee. Aside from the motherboard, parts are not serialized and the machine won't be degraded even if you decide to replace that flakey killer wifi card with something better.

 

Hell, I used to work for a company that ran a fleet of their laptops and was part of the warranty self service program. As the technician, I could log into a web portal and order free warranty parts without talking to Dell about it. This is a big part as to why I use a Dell laptop even though the new M1 computers are cool and intriguing.

 

Also, as an aside, this was the first time I contributed to a gofundme and I was kinda surprised at how quick it was. Make sure you are sure about your amount because there is no oopsie screen.

Ryzen 3600 - MSI B450 Tomahawk - Gigabyte 1070 - Samsung 860 EVO - Corsair 16GB DDR4

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