Jump to content

Another ARM(1) - Apple event introduces new low-end Macs as well as updated OS

williamcll
By williamcll
in Tech News
 Share
Go to solution Solved by LAwLz,

Apple's first silicon for PCs will be named "M1".

 

 

CPU:

  • 4 big cores that are, according to Apple, "the fastest core in the world", and I actually believe them. I would not be surprised if this CPU core performs better than Zen 3.
  • 4 small cores that are meant for power efficiency. Didn't quite hear what Apple said about performance but I do believe they said the quad core low power cores would offer performance better than the dual core Intel Mac. I am far more skeptical of that claim though, and they might be measuring at some specific power level that is optimal for the M1's small cores but not for whichever Intel CPU they are comparing it against.
  • At 10 watts of power limit (the MacBook Air limit) the M1 offers twice the performance of Intel's latest CPU.
  • 3 times higher performance per watt compared to Intel at other power budgets.

 

GPU:

  • 8 cores.
  • 128 execution units.
  • 2.6 TFLOPs of performance.
  • 82 gigatexels per second
  • 41 gigapixels per second.
  • Twice the performance per watt at 10 watts power envelop, but we have no idea which chip they are comparing against (probably the Intel chip in the latest Macbook).
  • "World's fastest integrated graphics".

 

 

Other:

  • 16-core Neural Engine with 11 trillion operations per second.
  • It's an SoC, so it as a lot of stuff built in. Basically everything is on a single chip just like in the iPhone and iPads.
  • It has a "unified memory architecture" which lets all SoC components (CPU, GPU and I presume NPU) access the same memory directly. So no need for the GPU to request resources from the CPU.
  • 16 billion 5nm transistors.
  • Secure enclave built in.
  • Very low power video playback.
  • Neural Engine.
  • PCIe 4.0 support
  • Thunderbolt and USB 4 support.
  • Very good image processing (probably the same as in the iPhone).
  • Crypt accelerator (although a lot of CPUs has this these days).
  • NVMe support
  • "Always-on processor" which probably refers to some very deep sleep state.

 

 

Software:

  • MacOS using M1 processors can directly run iPhone and iPad apps!
  • MacOS Big Sur has been optimized for the M1.
  • "iPhone-style instant-on" which to me mean you never really turn the computer off, you just lock it and it goes into sleep. This is really nice.
  • Safari is 1.9x as responsive on the M1 compared to some other Mac configuration. They don't specify what they are comparing against really.
  • "Universal apps" is Apple's name for packaging both ARM and x86 compatible apps into one program. So developers only have to release one version of their apps and it will be able to run on both ARM and x86. None of this "which version do you want to download ARM|x86" we have seen on Windows.
  • Rosetta 2 allows x86-only programs to run on Apple's ARM processor. According to Apple some programs even perform better on Rosetta 2 than on an x86 Mac. But that might just be some handful of apps and because the M1 is faster than the x86 processor. Performance remains to be seen.
Posted
7 minutes ago, Commodus said:

What fascinated me: that Apple claimed the low-power cores by themselves are as powerful as the Core i3 from the earlier MacBook Air. That suggests you might be dealing with at least Core i5-level power even in the $999 Air, and that's not including the much faster graphics.

Sure and that's... I guess expected. But they are far from i7 and i9.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted
2 hours ago, bcredeur97 said:

Biggest concern is this brings proprietary-ness for computers to a whole new level as well. 

Everything will be tied to that SoC. There won't be replacing parts, just replacing entire motherboards. Unless they tied the rest of the chassis into the SoC too somehow (like the display). 

RIP repairability. That said I'm sure there will be plenty of alternatives in the years to come (if this ends up being good anyway)

I agree it's really too bad there won't be anything replaceable, although macbooks haven't been serviceable to the user since the 2012 model , I think the 2013 and 2014 models had a proprietary SSD slot but the RAM was soldered in. Apple could've made a real "pro" laptop using AMD Ryzen, DIMM slots, M.2 slots, but no they said screw it and made their laptops into ipads with screens attached.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted
11 minutes ago, Commodus said:

What fascinated me: that Apple claimed the low-power cores by themselves are as powerful as the Core i3 from the earlier MacBook Air. That suggests you might be dealing with at least Core i5-level power even in the $999 Air, and that's not including the much faster graphics.

Considering the A14 matches mobile Core i9 processors and the leaked benchmarks for the A14X closes the gap between it and desktop-level core i9 processors, and how the M1 may be as powerful as the A14X, you might be underestimating the M1 just a tad. Or maybe I'm overestimating, that's a possibility.

 

I'm just surprised that the MacBook Air and the MacBook Pro use the same CPU. We don't know if it will be downclocked on the Air, but still. There's little reason to buy the MacBook Pro unless you are doing something that will take a lot of CPU power that the Air can't afford due to no fans, but didn't they show 8K video editing on the Air? Maybe futureproofing I guess...

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted

Kind of odd that the new MacBook Pro 13 has halved memory and storage support.

 

New model has a max of 16GB of RAM and 2TB of storage vs the 32GB and 4TB available on the Intel models.

 

Also curious as to how well the ARM chips will stack up in the 16 inch model... If it takes 8 cores to show those gains over a 15w i3 chip, how many cores will it take to outpace my 45w i9-9980HK?!?! 
 

I’m getting the feeling that they’re struggling to match 35-45w mobile chips. I can’t imagine them squeezing out 10x more performance to compete. Hopefully I’m wrong.

MacBook Pro 16 - i9-9980HK - Radeon Pro 5500m 8GB - 32GB DDR4 - 2TB NVME

iPhone 12 Mini / Sony WH-1000XM4 / Bose Companion 20

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted
1 minute ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:
Just now, Vitamanic said:

Kind of odd that the new MacBook Pro 13 has halved memory and storage support.

 

New model has a max of 16GB of RAM and 2TB of storage vs the 32GB and 4TB available on the Intel models.

 

Also curious as to how well the ARM chips will stack up in the 16 inch model... If it takes 8 cores to match a 2 core 15w i3 chip, how many cores will it take to match my 45w i9-9980HK?!?! 
 

I’m getting the feeling that they’re struggling to match 35-45w mobile chips. I can’t imagine them squeezing out 10x more performance to compete. Hopefully I’m wrong.

 

that's because that black tar chip does not have the same cooling capabilities as open-die Intel/AMD. They just can't push it that far.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted
35 minutes ago, Commodus said:

Yeah, it did. There's still the higher-end 13-inch models and the 16-inch for those who need more than 16GB.

 

This reminds me more than a little of the first Intel Macs — they offered big speed boosts, but outside of a couple of things (such as MagSafe on the MacBook Pro) it took future models for the hardware to really shine. If you want a Mac now, get one now as you'll likely enjoy it... but those who can afford to wait probably should.

Regardless of how seamless Apple can claim this transition will be along with how great their M1 chips are, I definitely agree that the second gen of these ARM macs should be a lot better. Of course if you want/need a Mac now, go for it, but waiting the year or two for the next update seems like you'll get all the kinks of a first gen transition sorted. Developer's will get used to ARM translation and/or using Rosetta, any hardware quirks with the new(?) chassis could be improved. All things that happen with every product cycle, but most relevant for big leaps like this one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted
1 hour ago, Letgomyleghoe said:

probably since theyre ARM and that means RISC, but youre also comparing apples to oranges

I feel like you're using the expression "comparing apples to oranges" incorrectly. 

Of course you can compare two general purpose processors against each other. 

Nvidia and AMD don't use the same instruction sets for their GPUs either but we are able to compare them with ease. Internally AMD and Intel use different instruction sets too (which are RISC) and that has never stopped us from comparing them in benchmarks. 

Just check which processor is able to complete a specific task the quickest.

 

Sure, since they aren't running the exact same instructions we'll have a little bit more variables changing between tests than before, but we can still draw meaningful conclusions and comparisons. Optimization for a specific architecture is already a thing with processors. 

 

Just do more real world tests of the entire system. Which computer can complete these Photoshop processes the fastest? 

Simple. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted
3 minutes ago, Vitamanic said:

Kind of odd that the new MacBook Pro 13 has halved memory and storage support.

 

New model has a max of 16GB of RAM and 2TB of storage vs the 32GB and 4TB available on the Intel models.

 

Also curious as to how well the ARM chips will stack up in the 16 inch model... If it takes 8 cores to show those gains over a 15w i3 chip, how many cores will it take to outpace my 45w i9-9980HK?!?! 
 

I’m getting the feeling that they’re struggling to match 35-45w mobile chips. I can’t imagine them squeezing out 10x more performance to compete. Hopefully I’m wrong.

Am I missing something? Did I watch a different keynote? Was I just absorbed by Apple's marketing (most likely answer)?

 

The M1 chip is an ARM SOC based off of an Apple-designed core in a big.Little configuration. Per Apple's words, the M1 SOC is split into 4 high performance cores, and 4 high efficiency cores. They said the high-efficiency cores match the Core i3 in the MacBook Air, or the Core i3-1000NG4, an adaptation of an Ice Lake core. The difference being the M1 does it at significantly less power. Like significantly less power.

 

Assuming the M1 chip is the same chip as found in the "leaked benchmark", it has a single core score of 1634. That score is 200 points higher than the Core i9-10900k. Now, people say it's apples and oranges, I don't know how it is but that's not my expertise I can't really talk, but taken at face value the M1 chip is very powerful while using a fraction of the power the i9 mobile chip uses.

 

We will see next week whether I'm right or wrong, but if I'm right you should have nothing to worry about. If they can pull off outstanding performance on a 15-20W chip, then what the fuck can the do on a 45W chip? I'm excited. I really think they could match or maybe even slightly beat a Zen3 Threadripper based off of this. Hopefully by then though it doesn't take up 500W of power. They overbuilt the Mac Pro cooling system for some reason, and I think this is the reason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted

Anandtech has released their article about it now.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/16226/apple-silicon-m1-a14-deep-dive/5

Here is the ending quote:

Quote

Apple claims the M1 to be the fastest CPU in the world. Given our data on the A14, beating all of Intel’s designs, and just falling short of AMD’s newest 5950X Zen3 – a higher clocked Firestorm above 3GHz, the 50% larger L2 cache, and an unleashed TDP, we can certainly believe Apple and the M1 to be able to achieve that claim.

 

This moment has been brewing for years now, and the new Apple Silicon is both shocking, but also very much expected. In the coming weeks we’ll be trying to get our hands on the new hardware and verify Apple’s claims.

 

Intel has stagnated itself out of the market, and has lost a major customer today. AMD has shown lots of progress lately, however it’ll be incredibly hard to catch up to Apple’s power efficiency. If Apple’s performance trajectory continues at this pace, the x86 performance crown might never be regained

 

 

They have benchmarks too. Apple's "Firestorm" cores matches Zen3 in terms of performance at much lower frequency and power usage. 

 

 

 

@leadeater

Tagging you because I think we debated whether or not ARM could replace x86 before, me being on arm's side and you on x86's side.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted
3 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Macbook air is the best selling laptop because it's the cheapest macbook people can buy and still have a macbook to gloat and show off with lol

For some of the users, you're right; but for a substantial amount of Air users I think that's the "cheapest portable device that gives me access to MacOS"

I like cute animal pics.

Mac Studio | Ryzen 7 5800X3D + RTX 3090

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted
9 minutes ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

Am I missing something? Did I watch a different keynote? Was I just absorbed by Apple's marketing (most likely answer)?

 

The M1 chip is an ARM SOC based off of an Apple-designed core in a big.Little configuration. Per Apple's words, the M1 SOC is split into 4 high performance cores, and 4 high efficiency cores. They said the high-efficiency cores match the Core i3 in the MacBook Air, or the Core i3-1000NG4, an adaptation of an Ice Lake core. The difference being the M1 does it at significantly less power. Like significantly less power.

 

Assuming the M1 chip is the same chip as found in the "leaked benchmark", it has a single core score of 1634. That score is 200 points higher than the Core i9-10900k. Now, people say it's apples and oranges, I don't know how it is but that's not my expertise I can't really talk, but taken at face value the M1 chip is very powerful while using a fraction of the power the i9 mobile chip uses.

 

We will see next week whether I'm right or wrong, but if I'm right you should have nothing to worry about. If they can pull off outstanding performance on a 15-20W chip, then what the fuck can the do on a 45W chip? I'm excited. I really think they could match or maybe even slightly beat a Zen3 Threadripper based off of this. Hopefully by then though it doesn't take up 500W of power. They overbuilt the Mac Pro cooling system for some reason, and I think this is the reason.

I presume those are benchmarks of the high-perf cores. So you are missing whole 4 high-perf cores of i9-10900k.Also wondering about "Hyper-threading".

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted
19 minutes ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

Considering the A14 matches mobile Core i9 processors and the leaked benchmarks for the A14X closes the gap between it and desktop-level core i9 processors, and how the M1 may be as powerful as the A14X, you might be underestimating the M1 just a tad. Or maybe I'm overestimating, that's a possibility.

 

I'm just surprised that the MacBook Air and the MacBook Pro use the same CPU. We don't know if it will be downclocked on the Air, but still. There's little reason to buy the MacBook Pro unless you are doing something that will take a lot of CPU power that the Air can't afford due to no fans, but didn't they show 8K video editing on the Air? Maybe futureproofing I guess...

I'm being conservative. Everyone likes to point to Geekbench scores, but we all know that one synthetic test doesn't necessarily translate to real life in every circumstance.

 

(Also: it's not clear there will be an A14X at this point, at least not for a while!)

 

I suspect the differences between M1 in the Air and Pro comes down to clock speed and possibly sustained loads. The Pro is no doubt a better pick if you intend to work your system hard.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted
Just now, PeterBocan said:

I presume those are benchmarks of the high-perf cores. So you are missing whole 4 high-perf cores of i9-10900k.Also wondering about "Hyper-threading".

Single Core? Multi Core is slammed by the i9 and AMD since you're comparing a quad-core to an octacore, but it's not like Geekbench combines the might of all 4 cores into one for ARM.

 

And I think the low-power cores are the replacement for hyperthreading.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted
1 minute ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

Single Core? Multi Core is slammed by the i9 and AMD since you're comparing a quad-core to an octacore, but it's not like Geekbench combines the might of all 4 cores into one for ARM.

 

And I think the low-power cores are the replacement for hyperthreading.

yeah exactly, Octa*-core. It's not really octa core, it's more of a 4+4 so on paper it's better than 4 core and worse than full 8 core.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted
1 minute ago, ZP9 said:

Yeah because its those kind of people that apple are targeting their products at... The people who struggle to get any internet and afford basic things

I see society's spending habits in a V shape. Poorer people and richer people tend to like to get the most expensive stuff, whether MacBooks, iPhones, Mercedes, BMWs. People in middle-class like to spend their money more wisely though. There are a lot of cases where people have a MacBook or drive an expensive car but live in a small home. That's psychology that I definitely did not take in High School, but I don't think its a coincidence that this happens. Same with credit-card debt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted
1 minute ago, ZP9 said:

What? When do poorer people like to get expensive stuff? 

 

The people who dont get 10mb internet as you say, live in poorer countries where they cant afford things like that. 

That could just be American habits. We're some crazy ass people. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted
3 minutes ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

That could just be American habits. We're some crazy ass people. 

yeah, American salaries are totally different to what the rest of the world makes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted
Just now, PeterBocan said:

yeah, American salaries are totally different to what the rest of the world makes.

Yeah my bad, I should've clarified America. But remember the gross salary isn't what we actually take home. A percentage is taxed, then another percentage goes to Social Security, then some goes to private healthcare (oh yeah because in the 21st century the best we have is the ACA).

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted
59 minutes ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

We don't know if it will be downclocked on the Air, but still.

The M1 inside the MacBook Air starts with 8GB onboard memory (configurable to 16 GB), the base model has a 7 core GPU while the higher tier with 512 GB storage has 8 core GPU. The new Air is also fan less. 
 

The new 13” MacBook Pro’s M1 chip has 8GB onboard memory at the base model (configurable to 16) but has an 8 core GPU and has a fan. 

There is more that meets the eye
I see the soul that is inside

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted
Just now, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

Yeah my bad, I should've clarified America. But remember the gross salary isn't what we actually take home. A percentage is taxed, then another percentage goes to Social Security, then some goes to private healthcare (oh yeah because in the 21st century the best we have is the ACA).

 

we have that here as well, it's just average and median salaries ale somewhere completely different.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted
4 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

you mean it's faster than cheap sub 400 doritos laptops?

Those do not make up 98% uf the market. Not even close!

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted
4 hours ago, jollander said:

I just realized the Macbook pro is only up to 16gb RAM, but at the same time they brag about 8k video. I'm not experienced with high res video so this is a shoutout to anyone who is: Is that RAM enough in a real-life workload for 8k editing?

what are you talking about. the higher-tier model goes to 32GB. sorry, that was BS from my side. Although it may indeed not be necessary for most users if the vertical optimizations are as intense as they claim they are.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted
3 hours ago, m0ther said:

I'm looking forward to Louis Rossman's take on this. Apple authorised repairs will just be MoBo replacements at this point. 

 

I had to get the battery replaced on my 2019 MBP recently, and Apple would only do a full top case replacement (EVERYTHING except the SSD, display, and the bottom cover - seriously). Luckily I had warranty so it wasn't a big deal for me, but just seems like a massive waste.

 

Edit: 2019, not 2017

That makes no sense at all. The SSD cannot be replaced separately, not at all. And the display is part of the top case - glued in. What are you talking about?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted
57 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Tagging you because I think we debated whether or not ARM could replace x86 before, me being on arm's side and you on x86's side.

Mmmm wasn't really saying it couldn't, just that it's not going to happen that quickly and neither will it fully. I don't see x86 going away for a long ass time. Like Apple can do what ever they want, ARM can have all the performance under the sun, still going to have an extremely hard time in the wider PC and server market.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share
Go to topic listing Tech News

×