Seasonic confirms Nvidia 12-pin connector

[mr moose]

Just now, Ankerson said:

 

Audio is really mostly subjective I would guess, what someone can actually hear or not..... And that would tend to vary quite a bit....

I've worked with about 10 musicians in my casual/part time career in sound.  They all have a different Idea what sounds best.  If audio was objective and could be measured we wouldn't have so many different brands of everything from instruments to amplifiers to signal processors to speakers and headphones.  We also wouldn't have so many different ideas on what room sounds good. What is best a  concert hall or a theatre, what about a carpeted room? why did bonham record in a stairwell for levee breaks while half a dozen other drummers spend thousands in special iso booths.  Fuck even just listen to the iso's from the beetles studio recordings and you'll fucking die at how horrible it was.  yet it still sells and people still want the stuff on vinyl. 

 

I agree.  it is heavily subjective and different bits make it better or worse for different people.

 

But anyway, now we are fully off topic. I will bow out of this conversation unless it is about nvidia.

 

 

 

 

[Ankerson]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I've worked with about 10 musicians in my casual/part time career in sound.  They all have a different Idea what sounds best.  If audio was objective and could be measured we wouldn't have so many different brands of everything from instruments to amplifiers to signal processors to speakers and headphones.  We also wouldn't have so many different ideas on what room sounds good. What is best a  concert hall or a theatre, what about a carpeted room? why did bonham record in a stairwell for levee breaks while half a dozen other drummers spend thousands in special iso booths.  Fuck even just listen to the iso's from the beetles studio recordings and you'll fucking die at how horrible it was.  yet it still sells and people still want the stuff on vinyl. 

 

I agree.  it is heavily subjective and different bits make it better or worse for different people.

 

But anyway, now we are fully off topic. I will bow out of this conversation unless it is about nvidia.

 

 

 

 

 

I know, I was picking your brain a little since I don't know anything really about it.

 

With PSUs I have seen the aftermath way too often over the decades..... Hardware guy here.....

[HM-2]

5 hours ago, Zodiark1593 said:

Before smartphones, it wasn’t easy to get online while at a store. 

I'm pretty sure most people have bought PSUs online for at least a decade now. I can't remember the last time I bought computer components from a brick and mortar store, must have been about 2005?

[GoldenLag]

4 hours ago, mr moose said:

PSU tier lists are a fallacy. Sure there is a difference between a $50 PSU and a $300 PSU, however that difference is rarely needed by most builders. Unless you are overclocking an HEDT or spec'ing out a server then generally anything decent from a branded company will suffice.

issue, what is decent and from a branded company?

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

issue, what is decent and from a branded company?

branded = corsair, gigabyte, antec, silverstone, etc  the brands you already know about because they have been in the industry for decades and don't have a completely shit name that gets dumped on the whole time. You won't find any of these brands less than A$60 because they won't put their name on the shit. and can afford to pay for better QC in China.

 

Generic non-branded =  chewng, nexgen, hairong, vip,  if it's less than A$60 is 99Q% going to be too small or junk.

[Haro]

5 minutes ago, mr moose said:

You won't find any of these brands less than A$60 because they won't put their name on the shit. and can afford to pay for better QC in China.

Even price doesn't really mean quality. 

Every brand makes bad and good products, getting a PSU (which is a crucial part of your build) by brand is a really bad thing to do. 

And yes those brands do make bad products. 

Example? The EVGA n1 and w1, which are a fire hazard. 

[ProBottler]

12 minutes ago, mr moose said:

A$60

this is 60 aud right?

 

[GoldenLag]

30 minutes ago, mr moose said:

You won't find any of these brands less than A$60 because they won't put their name on the shit. and can afford to pay for better QC in China.

except you find they do put their name on "shit". like more notable examples being Corsair VS orange and cx green. or recent examples being the continued use of VS design in CV450/550 where they lack protections that should be expected in anything decent. 

 

cooler master having a lot of bad stuff to their name, antec its the same story with stuff like their Neo Eco bronze. then there are popular brands like EVGA which have a lot of units to their name which also are poor (N1/N2, W3, W1 etc etc)

 

and you often find these poor units for more than 60$ aussie (i assume its aussie dollars, if not the statement is still true for USD)

22 minutes ago, TofuHaroto said:

The EVGA n1 and w1, which are a fire hazard. 

not a fire hazard, thats just a trope spread around which for these units dont apply. doesnt make them good units. 

30 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Generic non-branded =  chewng, nexgen, hairong, vip,

is SilentiumPC generic and non-branded? Riotoro, Xigmatek, sentey, Gamdias, High Power?

30 minutes ago, mr moose said:

if it's less than A$60 is 99Q% going to be too small or junk.

there is certainly a point where its rather unlikely to get good units for less than x price. but a lot of countries there are good units for a whole lot less with lesser known brands. 

 

getting something "decent" from a "known brand" isnt very helpful when you dont know what units are decent to begin with. is the Antec VP plus any decent? how do you tell if you find a review? hence having some resource where you can read the methodoligy  and find units based on where that resource places it. edit: is useful
clearly i forget to finish my sentences sometimes. 

[mr moose]

34 minutes ago, TofuHaroto said:

Even price doesn't really mean quality. 

Every brand makes bad and good products, getting a PSU (which is a crucial part of your build) by brand is a really bad thing to do. 

And yes those brands do make bad products. 

Example? The EVGA n1 and w1, which are a fire hazard. 

 

This is from 2007 so very dated and obviously limited to france, however it does illustrate that failure rates across most brands and prices are exceptionally low, even thermaltake scoring low.  I would ignore the Antec one though because it is way too different form the others and might be the result of a batch they received.

https://www.behardware.com/news/8550/power-supply-failure-rate.html

 

EDIT: the pudget systems review of hardware put evga failure rate at 1.2% . that was from 2018, so not much has changed.

 

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, GoldenLag said:

except you find they do put their name on "shit". like more notable examples being Corsair VS orange and cx green. or recent examples being the continued use of VS design in CV450/550 where they lack protections that should be expected in anything decent. 

 

cooler master having a lot of bad stuff to their name, antec its the same story with stuff like their Neo Eco bronze. then there are popular brands like EVGA which have a lot of units to their name which also are poor (N1/N2, W3, W1 etc etc)

 

and you often find these poor units for more than 60$ aussie (i assume its aussie dollars, if not the statement is still true for USD)

not a fire hazard, thats just a trope spread around which for these units dont apply. doesnt make them good units. 

is SilentiumPC generic and non-branded? Riotoro, Xigmatek, sentey, Gamdias, High Power?

there is certainly a point where its rather unlikely to get good units for less than x price. but a lot of countries there are good units for a whole lot less with lesser known brands. 

 

getting something "decent" from a "known brand" isnt very helpful when you dont know what units are decent to begin with. is the Antec VP plus any decent? how do you tell if you find a review? hence having some resource where you can read the methodoligy  and find units based on where that resource places it. 

Except that statistically they are all the same. See above post.

 

There is no point in going into great detail about which PSU has this that or the other detail if all brands regardless of price work sufficiently and have the same failure rate.

 

[mr moose]

We are not living in 2003 anymore where products can be disastrous due to bad chinese caps or corner cutting to get cost down.  You can see it in all industries.  most notably the automotive.

[GoldenLag]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Except that statistically they are all the same. See above post.

so you go purely off statistical failure rate. 

 

not protections, topology, voltage regulation. all of which really dont have an apperant impact for the system in the short term. and can in worst case kill the system, or lead to the early death of the system/componenets. or when stuff dont go as expected, a fan failure that leads to the PSU overheating. without OTP that unit is gonna run untill it dies. not something you really encounter in failure rate statistics. 

 

5 minutes ago, mr moose said:

There is no point in going into great detail about which PSU has this that or the other detail if all brands regardless of price work sufficiently and have the same failure rate.

so failure rate is the thing to consider, not protections in case something doesnt go according to plan? even tho there are good reasons to avoid PSUs that lack something like UVP on the major rail, or have group regulated topologies. or PSUs that lack OTP, because the fans can fail. 

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, GoldenLag said:

so you go purely off statistical failure rate. 

 

not protections, topology, voltage regulation. all of which really dont have an apperant impact for the system in the short term. and can in worst case kill the system, or lead to the early death of the system/componenets. or when stuff dont go as expected, a fan failure that leads to the PSU overheating. without OTP that unit is gonna run untill it dies. not something you really encounter in failure rate statistics. 

 

so failure rate is the thing to consider, not protections in case something doesnt go according to plan? even tho there are good reasons to avoid PSUs that lack something like UVP on the major rail, or have group regulated topologies. or PSUs that lack OTP, because the fans can fail. 

 

yep,  most PSUs have an adequate protection system.  majority of systems don't need precision protection systems.  if your pc is pulling too much current or shorting out then it is A already fucked and B won't catch on fire even with a vs series psu.

 

 

[GoldenLag]

6 minutes ago, mr moose said:

if your pc is pulling too much current or shorting out then it is A already fucked and B won't catch on fire even with a vs series psu.

tho certain failures could lead to the death of the system, or lack of protection can lead to an early death of components in the system. like lacking UVP.

7 minutes ago, mr moose said:

yep,  most PSUs have an adequate protection system.

except they regularly lack stuff like UVP, or OTP. some dont have propper OPP configuration and on higher wattage units, having multirail OCP is also a consideration. 

 

lacking UVP and OTP really isnt adequate

 

9 minutes ago, mr moose said:

if your pc is pulling too much current

protection are in place to stop that from happening at all. to avoid the system being ducked or cables melting. good thing there are more than 1 protection that mitigates that from happening. including one additional one that is very usefull on higher current PSUs. 

 

if the PSU is overheating, yeah its ducked, if only there was a protection feature in place which would hinder such a scenario.

[mr moose]

Just now, GoldenLag said:

tho certain failures could lead to the death of the system, or lack of protection can lead to an early death of components in the system. like lacking UVP.

except they regularly lack stuff like UVP, or OTP. some dont have propper OPP configuration and on higher wattage units, having multirail OCP is also a consideration. 

 

lacking UVP and OTP really isnt adequate

The VS series has OPP, UVP and OTP.

 

 

 

Just now, GoldenLag said:

protection are in place to stop that from happening at all. to avoid the system being ducked or cables melting. good thing there are more than 1 protection that mitigates that from happening. including one additional one that is very usefull on higher current PSUs. 

None of the protections in any psu can detect a fault before it happens.

 

Just now, GoldenLag said:

if the PSU is overheating, yeah its ducked, if only there was a protection feature in place which would hinder such a scenario.

As I said before there is protection, but if the PSU is over heating then it is one of the less than 5% that are failing regardless which brand or price you pay.

 

 

[GoldenLag]

45 minutes ago, mr moose said:

The VS series has OPP, UVP and OTP.

lacks UVP on the major rail. which is one of the more important ones to consider. and UVP on the minor rails is one way to check a box while really not fulfilling it fully. 

45 minutes ago, mr moose said:

None of the protections in any psu can detect a fault before it happens.

it stops it from killing or damaging components. having a PSU fail is bad, but its about how it fails and if its takes with it other components. ( edit: also a protection results in shutdown, and not a failure)

45 minutes ago, mr moose said:

As I said before there is protection, but if the PSU is over heating then it is one of the less than 5% that are failing regardless which brand or price you pay.

its a source of failing and taking more components with it. and OTP is something that saves the PSU in case of fan failure. something that is prone to failure. or things like dust build-up. you are using the PSU for an extended period of time, wouldnt OTP essentially be a must-have? same with UVP on the major rail. 

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

lacks UVP on the major rail. which is one of the more important ones to consider. and UVP on the minor rails is one way to check a box while really not fulfilling it fully. 

it stops it from killing or damaging components. having a PSU fail is bad, but its about how it fails and if its takes with it other components. 

If your GPU and Motherboard suddenly want all 620watts from the 12 v line and the PSU can't keep up then the OPP will kick in. IF it doesn't then the PSU was to shit to begin with. Under volting is a problem that should only occur in a psu that is too small for the job you are asking of it.  I'll grant it's something that if you are paying good money for you should have, but if your system is spec'd right it shouldn't make much difference.  That is one of the reasons UVP is not part of the ATX spec unlike like OVP where the spec says it has to be independent on every rail and separate from the PWM controller. 

5 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

its a source of failing and taking more components with it. and OTP is something that saves the PSU in case of fan failure. something that is prone to failure. or things like dust build-up. you are using the PSU for an extended period of time, wouldnt OTP essentially be a must-have? same with UVP on the major rail. 

Again, OTP is something mot PSUs have. the VS series has OTP.

 

 

 

 

[RejZoR]

6 hours ago, Grumpy Old Man said:

I only realized now how small the connector is

 

This photo alone explains everything there is needed to know. This 12 pin is actually smaller than single 8 pin. That I think is worthy of a change. I wonder if vendors of modular PSU's could supply us with PCIe power to this 12pin cable directly. I got bunch of single SATA cables for my BeQuiet DarkPower and it simpified so many things instead of those daisy chained ones or using adapters. Not sure if I've spotted if power delivery is higher here or just smaller more practical single connector...

 

I'd prefer if such cable goes directly from modular PSU and not as an adapter on original PCIe cable...

[GoldenLag]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

Under volting is a problem that should only occur in a psu that is too small for the job you are asking of it.

and PSUs with inadequate voltage regulation. and PSUs that would otherwise be able to do the job just fine, but er are Group regulated units which can and usaully will lead to scenarios where UVP is usefull. like crossloads. 

 

so far from an issue that only too small PSUs encounter. 

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

Again, OTP is something mot PSUs have. the VS series has OTP.

a notable number of lower end PSUs in "reputable" brands lack OTP. EVGA BR being one of them iirc. which is a current sold, and fairly popular model with no notable statistical DOA issues etc etc. so even reliable PSUs lack important protections that affect their long term or even short term usage.

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

I'll grant it's something that if you are paying good money for you should have, but if your system is spec'd right it shouldn't make much difference.

its something you should have regardelss due to the wear too low voltage causes on components. like early motherboard or GPU death can result from lack of UVP. even if its not part of ATX spec, it should be a given when choosing a unit these days.
 

someone else could likely elaborate more on the downsides of group regs, so i will just point to a thread instead: 

edit: having UVP isnt the end of the world for PSUs, but then you also have to make sure the unit itself is very good. and even then know that its not the greatest for the health of the system. 

 

so while i think it should be a given its not the end of the world, but also there really isnt any extra cost assosiated with it. Dual mag Amp PSUs and DC-DC units are very cheap these days, might aswell get them. better to have the protection coverage than to assume the system will never have to use them. 

 

43 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Not sure if I've spotted if power delivery is higher here or just smaller more practical single connector...

12-pin is higher power delivery than the 6+2 pin PCIe. its a decent replacement for that connector and a step in the right direction, but we allready have connectors that could have done the job which are the same size as a single 8 pin. so its a rather unneccesary connector. cool for backplanes and stuff in servers i suppose (depending on the current capabilities)

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, GoldenLag said:

and PSUs with inadequate voltage regulation. and PSUs that would otherwise be able to do the job just fine, but er are Group regulated units which can and usaully will lead to scenarios where UVP is usefull. like crossloads. 

I would say all the psus in the range i mentioned have adequate voltage regulation.  group regulation isn't the evil everyone thinks it is.  Again you really only need uvp in an unreliable psu.

 

 

1 hour ago, GoldenLag said:

so far from an issue that only too small PSUs encounter. 

a notable number of lower end PSUs in "reputable" brands lack OTP. EVGA BR being one of them iirc. which is a current sold, and fairly popular model with no notable statistical DOA issues etc etc. so even reliable PSUs lack important protections that affect their long term or even short term usage.

Except we don't see any statistical evidence that lack of OTP in how many psus? that it is a major problem.

1 hour ago, GoldenLag said:

its something you should have regardelss due to the wear too low voltage causes on components. like early motherboard or GPU death can result from lack of UVP. even if its not part of ATX spec, it should be a given when choosing a unit these days.
 

someone else could likely elaborate more on the downsides of group regs, so i will just point to a thread instead: 

edit: having UVP isnt the end of the world for PSUs, but then you also have to make sure the unit itself is very good. and even then know that its not the greatest for the health of the system. 

 

so while i think it should be a given its not the end of the world, but also there really isnt any extra cost assosiated with it. Dual mag Amp PSUs and DC-DC units are very cheap these days, might aswell get them. better to have the protection coverage than to assume the system will never have to use them. 

 

12-pin is higher power delivery than the 6+2 pin PCIe. its a decent replacement for that connector and a step in the right direction, but we allready have connectors that could have done the job which are the same size as a single 8 pin. so its a rather unneccesary connector. cool for backplanes and stuff in servers i suppose (depending on the current capabilities)

yeah, as I said before, I don't go there for very good reasons.  I know what I know and I know I have a formal education on the topic. 

[GoldenLag]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

I would say all the psus in the range i mentioned have adequate voltage regulation.  group regulation isn't the evil everyone thinks it is.  Again you really only need uvp in an unreliable psu.

and in PSUs where voltage regulation isnt done independantly. like a group regulated unit. you want UVP the same way you want OVP, just in case. this applies to reliable units aswell. 

 

also iirc it covers for high wattage units where Multirail OCP would be good. 

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

Except we don't see any statistical evidence that lack of OTP in how many psus? that it is a major problem.

its not a problem untill the PSU dies, or fan dies. which would likely end in the PSU dying. 

 

i can mention like 1 on hand, like the BR. i dont keep an eye on them regularly due to wanting to remember better units. Tier C in the tierlist has a number of them (since there is a requirement for it)

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

yeah, as I said before, I don't go there for very good reasons.  I know what I know and I know I have a formal education on the topic. 

then  you know why group regulated units arent great. there are decent group regulated units, like the VS. but they still lack UVP, which is one of the protections you should have in a modern unit. 

 

and checking for things like this isnt the easiest, hence tierlist is a fairly usefull for finding decent unit with protection coverage. instead of rellying on "good brands" and a pricepoint. 

[thechinchinsong]

I guess this could be a decent improvement for SFF builders where cable management for the most power-hungry GPUs could present issues for airflow or presentation.

[hollyh88]

and they said i was crazy for getting a 850 watt psu in a sale. WHO IS CRAZY NOW MUAHAHA

[jasonc_01]

17 hours ago, Ankerson said:

 

It's not.....

 

It a lot truer than you would believe....

 

 

Saying that once a power supply is out of warranty it's a ticking time bomb is like saying a 3 year old car out of warranty is a ticking time bomb.

 

By your logic I should replace my seasonic x850, it's almost 10 years old . Same as my acer predator xb271hu, the power supply in that guys is 5 years old. How about my 60" samaung plasma, its power supply is 12 years old. 

 

PSA! Everyone needs to replace the electronics in their homes that are out of warranty.

 

ALL THE POWER SUPPLIES ARE TICKING TIME BOMBS PPL. HURRY..

 

Bullshit confirmed.

 

 

[CarlBar]

It's called designed lifetime. Any component in anything will be designed to operate for a certain amount of time under certain assumed conditions. Cars are reguarly designed to last a lot longer than their warranty. But that isn't true of many products. Ticking Time bomb might be a bit hyperbolic, but you don't want to have a PSU go bad on you in a nasty way. If the air con fails on your car or the ignition key stops working you can fix it without major consequences, it's not going to write the entire car off. A bad PSU could easilly write your entire system off.

 

 

Also to go back to the car analogy, car has a lot of things that can fail on it. The odds that anything catastrophic will fail are low and at least in the UK cars have to have a mandatory yearly inspection, (called an MoT), of major elements and if they're not upto spec you don't get a pass, don't get a pass and it's now illegal to drive it. You also have insurance to cover you in the event somthing does fail unexpected that writes the car off out of warranty. In short cars have legal measures, (at least in the UK), in place to both minimise the odds of a catastrophic failure out of warranty and to cope with the material consequences occurring, (consequences to life and limb are harder to protect against, but cars also have design standards for crash survivability that also attempt to cope with that to the best of our ability.