COVID-19 - READ THE RULES BEFORE REPLYING

[Quackers101]

12 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

What are you not too sure about? Please be specific?

 

I don't see anything in the messaging that is factually incorrect, and the primary message is to speak to your doctor if you're unsure about getting a specific vaccine.

forgot what was said in the tweet, just had my mind on pfizer and some of the other situation during covid.

speaking to the doctor is not bad, but can also at times be blindly trusting the system if they also trust the system. How pfizer if I'm not mistaken wanted to push for "seasonal" vaccination, close to expired vaccines, bad batches of vaccines in mass production (not pfizer?), to pushing vaccines on kids even if some early low grade results didn't show much in favor of it (maybe if in bad/critical health etc). And if those statements was pushed as a part of these big medical corporation that has at times proven their untrust worthiness?

 

that these are the ones we should put our blind trust towards, but I guess the FDA has maybe done their part and for the wistleblower situation they had.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Quackers101

[dalekphalm]

10 minutes ago, Quackers101 said:

forgot what was said in the tweet, just had my mind on pfizer and some of the other situation during covid.

speaking to the doctor is not bad, but can also at times be blindly trusting the system if they also trust the system. How pfizer if I'm not mistaken wanted to push for "seasonal" vaccination, close to expired vaccines, bad batches of vaccines in mass production (not pfizer?), to pushing vaccines on kids even if some early low grade results didn't show much in favor of it (maybe if in bad/critical health etc). And if those statements was pushed as a part of these big medical corporation that has at times proven their untrust worthiness?

 

that these are the ones we should put our blind trust towards, but I guess the FDA has maybe done their part and for the wistleblower situation they had.

Not being an American, I frankly don't care what the FDA says. I trust Health Canada pretty implicitly, due to their high standards. We independently review all decisions made by the FDA and CDC, because sometimes they make decisions using different metrics or standards that don't hold up in Canada.

 

The batch of bad vaccines was a contracted factory, if I recall correctly. I don't know all the details, but as far as I can remember, none of the bad batch made it into circulation.

 

Point being, if you have questions? Ask your doctor. If you think your doctor isn't knowledgeable enough, ask another doctor.

 

As for kids getting the vaccine, there's essentially no downside, so... why not? The risk of the vaccine itself is so incredibly small, that they literally have a far larger risk of getting a complication from COVID (which is fairly low to begin with for kids). The primary reason for vaccinating kids isn't so much to stop them from getting infected and sick, but to prevent and slow the spread to other, more vulnerable people (such as grandparents, etc).

 

If people don't want to vaccinate their young kids? That's their choice. But, frankly, there's very little reason not to.

[Quackers101]

17 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Not being an American, I frankly don't care what the FDA says. I trust Health Canada pretty implicitly, due to their high standards. We independently review all decisions made by the FDA and CDC, because sometimes they make decisions using different metrics or standards that don't hold up in Canada.

 

Point being, if you have questions? Ask your doctor. If you think your doctor isn't knowledgeable enough, ask another doctor.

 

If people don't want to vaccinate their young kids? That's their choice. But, frankly, there's very little reason not to.

yeah, I guess it felt like it could have been seen as an ad for their vaccines. instead of a regular children show for vaccination.

maybe I just wanted to complain about it, as it kind of bugged me, but like you say, other countries might do their own research with own data. so if we see more on the topic, mrna, covid and for the youth.

[tikker]

48 minutes ago, Quackers101 said:

yeah, I guess it felt like it could have been seen as an ad for their vaccines. instead of a regular children show for vaccination.

maybe I just wanted to complain about it, as it kind of bugged me, but like you say, other countries might do their own research with own data. so if we see more on the topic, mrna, covid and for the youth.

Sesame Street is a regular children show, no? Unless there's a Sesame Street-branded vaccine I don't see what would be "their vaccine". The entire world has been and still is doing research. I would comfortably say that the biggest open question now is to what extent we can get a universal and/or long-lasting shot. We'll of course continue researching this for a long time coming, but we have a decent handle on things now.

 

What more data would you like to see? Statistics will only improve, which is a good thing, but by now the big points are pretty much sorted. mRNA vaccines have been studied at length for decades. We know how they work and that knowledge is what allowed us to deploy a vaccine so quickly. COVID-19 still has its mysteries such as long-COVID and long-term vaccine efficacy, but only time can tell that and the vaccine working well has continuously relieved pressure on health care. The youth, well, they don't run much risk from the virus or the vaccine and the latter reduces chances of the first further and helps protect others.

 

1 hour ago, Quackers101 said:

that these are the ones we should put our blind trust towards, but I guess the FDA has maybe done their part and for the wistleblower situation they had.

Not blindly, some scepticism is healthy, but especially now after 2 years I think it's quite clear there isn't some big conspiracy going on. According to Google 12.1 billion vaccines have been administered and 4.8 billion people are fully vaccinated. Even a one-in-a-million chance side effect statistically speaking should have shown up around 4-12 thousand times. And there also haven't been any reports of mysterious side-effects that only appear 1-2 years after the shot, which are highly unlikely at best anyway. There's still plenty to study, but probably very little will drastically alter our knowledge or views at this point.

[dalekphalm]

2 hours ago, Quackers101 said:

yeah, I guess it felt like it could have been seen as an ad for their vaccines. instead of a regular children show for vaccination.

maybe I just wanted to complain about it, as it kind of bugged me, but like you say, other countries might do their own research with own data. so if we see more on the topic, mrna, covid and for the youth.

Another thing to keep in mind is that serious side effects typically show up within 2 weeks to 2 months of innoculation.

 

As far as I can tell from research, no vaccine has ever had a serious side effect just show up years later.

 

Here is a great article that details some of the unexpected severe side effects of various vaccines from history:

https://www.chop.edu/news/long-term-side-effects-covid-19-vaccine

 

As you can see, the vast majority of these incidents happened within 2 weeks of inoculation, with a few rare cases happening up to 8 weeks after inoculation.

[captain_to_fire]

8 hours ago, Quackers101 said:

that these are the ones we should put our blind trust towards, but I guess the FDA has maybe done their part and for the wistleblower situation they had.

If I'm not mistaken the problem with the so-called "Pfizergate"

• There were less mRNA particles on the first batches
• Data disclosure is not as transparent as Moderna's trial
• Incompetent lab practices

Nonetheless, Comirnaty aka BNT162b2 has been administered to billions of people around the world and it has saved lives from severe illness despite the controversies, be it real or false. If the antivaxxing rhetoric was even remotely true that the mRNA or even the adenovector vaccines are killing way more people than Covid itself, I can bet you everyone will be ranting about it and it would be way too big to cover up by "big pharma". Just because a big pharma company has poured money onto something doesn't mean that they'll push through it even if the trials indicated that it failed. There's a reason why the sunken cost fallacy exists. Just look on Janssen/J&J's HIV vaccine, they paused the trial because of the disappointing efficacy of 25%, they decided not to continue the study despite spending R&D money on it.

 

8 hours ago, Quackers101 said:

yeah, I guess it felt like it could have been seen as an ad for their vaccines. instead of a regular children show for vaccination.

maybe I just wanted to complain about it, as it kind of bugged me, but like you say, other countries might do their own research with own data. so if we see more on the topic, mrna, covid and for the youth.

Also to people who have mRNA or adenovector demons, there's a new vaccine on the block that is using a traditional protein subunit platform called Novavax. In Canada they have their in-house plant-based VLP vaccine from Medicago.

[Quackers101]

18 minutes ago, captain_to_fire said:

Nonetheless, Comirnaty aka BNT162b2 has been administered to billions of people around the world and it has saved lives from severe illness despite the controversies, be it real or false. If the antivaxxing rhetoric was even remotely true that the mRNA or even the adenovector vaccines are killing way more people than Covid itself, I can bet you everyone will be ranting about it and it would be way too big to cover up by "big pharma". Just because a big pharma company has poured money onto something doesn't mean that they'll push through it even if the trials indicated that it failed.

not what I was suggesting, except for that they could pay them into recommendation/ads. a bit like the situation with boeing for airplanes.

My issue that FDA/CDC at times just repost pfizer's opinion and trying to push not for health reasons which to me seems like an abuse on the relationship between people and the medical system, more so when they got more to benefit from during this outbreak.

18 minutes ago, captain_to_fire said:

Just look on Janssen/J&J's HIV vaccine, they paused the trial because of the disappointing efficacy of 25%, they decided not to continue the study despite spending R&D money on it.

something they said was in the 30-40% for these lower age groups, standard being 50%? some old data for moderna in younger age group? but not too sure.

to some countries where maybe above 90% of the youth might already have antibodies from natural exposure. of course some might need the protection a lot more, and when long covid can have an affect.

18 minutes ago, captain_to_fire said:

Also to people who have mRNA or adenovector demons, there's a new vaccine on the block that is using a traditional protein subunit platform called Novavax. In Canada they have their in-house plant-based VLP vaccine from Medicago.

think I might have posted about that before in here

Edited June 30, 2022 by Quackers101

[RollyShed]

Medically Reviewed by Brunilda Nazario, MD on 20 February 2021 -

Manuka honey - "Advocates say it can treat wound infections"

"researchers discovered that honey has natural antibacterial qualities."
Note - bacteria, not virus which is what covid is.

"The honey used to treat wounds is a medical-grade honey. It is specially sterilized and prepared as a dressing. So the jar of manuka honey in the pantry shouldn’t be part of your first aid kit."

Do you know where it comes from?

OK, I'll nip down to the back yard and get some as I'm in the right country.

[tikker]

On 6/30/2022 at 2:30 AM, Quackers101 said:

not what I was suggesting, except for that they could pay them into recommendation/ads. a bit like the situation with boeing for airplanes.

My issue that FDA/CDC at times just repost pfizer's opinion and trying to push not for health reasons which to me seems like an abuse on the relationship between people and the medical system, more so when they got more to benefit from during this outbreak.

What was the opinion supposedly being pushed (not in the US, so I don't keep that close an eye on what the FDA/CDC do)? If it's "get vaccinated" then that's not just Pfizer's opinion, but that of a great many health entities and experts around the world. Luckily over here advertisements for non-over-the-counter medicine are prohibited bar general health points like Sesame Street is bringing here.

 

[Quackers101]

On 6/29/2022 at 7:15 PM, tikker said:

1. Sesame Street is a regular children show, no? Unless there's a Sesame Street-branded vaccine I don't see what would be "their vaccine".

 

2. According to Google 12.1 billion vaccines have been administered and 4.8 billion people are fully vaccinated. Even a one-in-a-million chance side effect statistically speaking should have shown up around 4-12 thousand times. And there also haven't been any reports of mysterious side-effects that only appear 1-2 years after the shot,

1. it wasn't about their vaccine, but using a brand like that if they are sponsored by them, got nothing wrong in them having something to show and educate, something I would say regular children shows can do, but to push a company or corporation through this media is not something I would want to be an "regular thing", more so when you don't know what they might benefit from it.

 

2. at that point, don't think that is the topic I was speaking about or not? dont remember

Quote

Pfizer (by the AU)

Clinical trials have shown that the 2 smaller doses of Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine lead to an immune response in children that is equally as strong as the larger doses in people aged over 12. The 2-dose, 10 microgram vaccine in the Pfizer trial of 5 to 11 year old children had an efficacy rate of nearly 91%, indicating it is very effective at preventing symptomatic infection in young children.

 

Moderna (by the AU)

dose is half that of the dose used for the primary course for people 12 years and older;  (but the same as the booster dose (50μg per dose; 0.25mL) for adults). A clinical trial conducted by Moderna demonstrated the Moderna vaccine produces a strong immune response in children.

However, ATAGI notes that evidence outside of clinical trials regarding the safety and effectiveness of this vaccine in children in this age group is not yet available. Side effects following the Moderna vaccine are mild to moderate and do not last long, but may be more common than those following Pfizer vaccine.

https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-and-programs/covid-19-vaccines/who-can-get-vaccinated/children

90% sounds like quite a lot from the first reports.

On 6/30/2022 at 9:01 AM, tikker said:

What was the opinion supposedly being pushed (not in the US, so I don't keep that close an eye on what the FDA/CDC do)? If it's "get vaccinated" then that's not just Pfizer's opinion, but that of a great many health entities and experts around the world.

Again it's not just about getting vaccinated, it's about you need to be more vaccinated than you "need to be" and creating as others pointed out in here a fear of not getting the vaccine each and every time (maybe there is special needs). As some from pfizer sort of said if I remember right, they wouldn't mind if everyone vaccinated every 4-6 months. over 2-3 years... like 6 vaccines for each person for a whole country on a close to global scale? while they still don't quite care about the countries that still haven't got 1 or 2 vaccines, so all about where the money lies (although some countries can be hard to deliver to and where they go). a few more vaccines for those who need it, which is a different thing again.

 

from what was reported from 2021

Quote

The company said its vaccine generated $3.5 billion in revenue in the first three months of this year.

 

Based on company financial statements, the Alliance estimates that Pfizer, BioNTech and Moderna will make pre-tax profits of $34 billion this year between them, which works out as over a thousand dollars a second

 

2022

Pfizer made nearly $37bn (£27bn) in sales from its Covid-19 vaccine last year – making it one of the most lucrative products in history

On 6/30/2022 at 9:01 AM, tikker said:

Luckily over here advertisements for medicine are prohibited bar general health points like Sesame Street is bringing here.

what do you mean towards the end there?

--

Got covid, got a bit critical sick by it hitting a weak spot creating a domino effect, not much I could do about it. lungs are supposedly completely fine, just every other part of the body feeling the hit to the weak spots.

[tikker]

8 minutes ago, Quackers101 said:

1. it wasn't about their vaccine, but using a brand like that if they are sponsored by them, got nothing wrong in them having something to show and educate, something I would say regular children shows can do, but to push a company or corporation through this media is not something I would want to be an "regular thing", more so when you don't know what they might benefit from it.

But they're not pushing a company or brand, they're just telling people to go to their doctor if they have questions about the vaccine.

8 minutes ago, Quackers101 said:

2. at that point, don't think that is the topic I was speaking about or not? dont remember

Well you can scroll up to refresh your memory. You talked about trusting these entities and other countries doing research as well. I was just pointing out that the research has been a global effort for the entire time now and that we know the major risks by now.

11 minutes ago, Quackers101 said:

Again it's not just about getting vaccinated, it's about you need to be more vaccinated than you "need to be" and creating as others pointed out in here a fear of not getting the vaccine each and every time (maybe there is special needs). As some from pfizer sort of said if I remember right, they wouldn't mind if everyone vaccinated every 4-6 months. over 2-3 years... like 6 vaccines for each person for a whole country on a close to global scale? while they still don't quite care about the countries that still haven't got 1 or 2 vaccines, so all about where the money lies (although some countries can be hard to deliver to and where they go). a few more vaccines for those who need it, which is a different thing again.

There has indeed been plenty of controversy about the profit aspect of things and plenty of criticism on boosters over shipping to other countries.

13 minutes ago, Quackers101 said:

what do you mean towards the end there?

So I was not completely correct there, but in my country you cannot advertise non-over-the-coutner medicine to the people, or medicine that doesn't have the right paperwork to be sold here. Furthermore you first need to acquire permission if you want to start advertising and there are regulations for how you are allowed to advertise. In other words, the could encourage you to get vaccinated or recommend talking to a doctor, like Sesame Street is doing in this thread's example, but you are not allowed to go "get your Pfizer shot now!", for example.  I seem to remember Pfizer/BioNtech being slapped on the wrist for this in Europe, but I can't find a source so maybe it was something else.

[captain_to_fire]

Good news to people who want to get vaccinated but doesn't want mRNA or vector vaccines for some other reason, the US FDA has finally authorized the Novavax Covid-19 vaccine (Nuvaxovid/Covovax in other countries) which uses a more traditional protein subunit platform plus a plant-based adjuvant.

 

(Reuters)

(Novavax)

[Donut417]

2 minutes ago, captain_to_fire said:

Good news to people who want to get vaccinated but doesn't want mRNA or vector vaccines for some other reason, the US FDA has finally authorized the Novavax Covid-19 vaccine (Nuvaxovid/Covovax in other countries) which uses a more traditional protein subunit platform plus a plant-based adjuvant.

 

(Reuters)

(Novavax)

How does it compare to the other vaccines in terms of effectiveness? Also is it effective against the newer strains? I read somewhere that the current vaccines are like not effective against the current strain going around. 

[tkitch]

8 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

How does it compare to the other vaccines in terms of effectiveness? Also is it effective against the newer strains? I read somewhere that the current vaccines are like not effective against the current strain going around. 

I Don't think omicron B5 / B6 have been tested for efficacy, as these new strains are mutating like fucking mad.  (B2 was the main virus in fucking APRIL.)

It's hard to keep testing ahead of that level of morphing.

[captain_to_fire]

40 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

How does it compare to the other vaccines in terms of effectiveness? Also is it effective against the newer strains? I read somewhere that the current vaccines are like not effective against the current strain going around. 

I was reading through their published literature in NEJM and their own press releases at it was found that just like other vaccines designed from the OG virus, they all have decreased efficacy against symptomatic Omicron but Novavax's OG covid vaccine still retains efficacy against hospitalization and death due to Omicron. [here] Also, just like Moderna they're in the way of updating their vaccine which is expected to be available around fall. [here]

 

Not sure about BA.6 just yet but Moderna's updated bivalent vaccine (OG+Omicron) was able to neutralize BA.4 and BA.5 respectively. I'm guessing it will be able to neutralize it as well.

[Andreas Lilja]

https://www.9news.com.au/world/covid19-vaccines-affected-42-per-cent-of-womens-menstrual-cycles-study-says/73bb874a-4d06-4696-ade6-79cdd112516f?ocid=Social-9NewsM

 

"study shows" 

 

It's a self-report survey. 

[Donut417]

2 minutes ago, Andreas Lilja said:

https://www.9news.com.au/world/covid19-vaccines-affected-42-per-cent-of-womens-menstrual-cycles-study-says/73bb874a-4d06-4696-ade6-79cdd112516f?ocid=Social-9NewsM

 

"study shows" 

 

It's a self-report survey. 

Thats interesting. 

 

Just wanted to let everyone know. I was at Walmart on Saturday to pick up my blood pressure meds. Well they offered me 4 packs of covid tests that had 2 tests per box for free. We have like 15 packs of tests now. I wonder if they are worried about how fast its mutating and thinking another wave could be inbound? 

 

I haven't kept an eye on the numbers, but I haven't seen anything posted on Facebook, so I assume all is well even if the building is burning down with us in it. To be honest Im honestly surprised I haven't gotten covid. Just because everyone else I know has. I guess being a recluse has its advantages. 

[captain_to_fire]

Talk about a double whammy

 

Bay Area Man Infected With COVID-19, Monkeypox at Same Time

[Sir Beregond]

Current strain just seems to be mostly a head cold for everyone I know who has had it. At this stage it just seems to be mutating into a much less severe virus as far as I can tell...at least for the vaccinated. I haven't looked it up enough to know how the unvaccinated are handling current strains. Out of the now many I know who got sick with COVID recently, at least two of them had 4 mRNA vaccinations and still didn't do anything to not catch the current strain going around. At this point, I have no interest in additional boosters until they reformulate to something that works for the newest strain. Feels like its going to be like an annual flu shot with reformulations every year.

 

First when these vaccines came out it was hurry and get them and you won't catch COVID! Then it was, well you'll still catch it, but you won't get hospitalized, then it was that they don't do squat against the current strain and it is basically still spreading wildly. Frankly I am disappointed in the vaccines. Not that I don't think they didn't work when they first came out to help prevent serious illness/hospitalization, but let's be honest, everyone was playing these up to be better than they turned out to be.

[tikker]

1 hour ago, Sir Beregond said:

Out of the now many I know who got sick with COVID recently, at least two of them had 4 mRNA vaccinations and still didn't do anything to not catch the current strain going around. At this point, I have no interest in additional boosters until they reformulate to something that works for the newest strain. Feels like its going to be like an annual flu shot with reformulations every year.

There will be breakthrough infections and people on which the vaccine works lesser. They also simply (and naturally) are a certain amount less effective against the new strains, so it makes sense that you can still get it even after 4 shots. The flu shot follows the same principle. This is why last year's shot is no longer "valid" for this year and the way they update the shot is also by monitoring the population and checking what is going around. The shot is then tuned for the variants they expect to be most prevalent. With how fast SARS-CoV-2 mutates, I think that it's a likely scenario that it'll be a yearly thing for now.

1 hour ago, Sir Beregond said:

First when these vaccines came out it was hurry and get them and you won't catch COVID! Then it was, well you'll still catch it, but you won't get hospitalized, then it was that they don't do squat against the current strain and it is basically still spreading wildly. Frankly I am disappointed in the vaccines. Not that I don't think they didn't work when they first came out to help prevent serious illness/hospitalization, but let's be honest, everyone was playing these up to be better than they turned out to be.

I think it's important to reiterate that the point of the vaccine was never to make you 100% watertight against ever catching COVID-19. The point of vaccines is to introduce your body to the threat in a controlled way such that it can immediately fight it at least somewhat, preferrably effectively, on the first real encounter. The efficacy of vaccines, how many shots are needed for long-term immunity, if long-term immunity can even be achieved, what kind of vaccination fraction you need for herd immunity (of which COVID-19 is still on the unlikely to happen list as far as I know) all vary on a disease-by-disease basis. For a new disease it is hard if not impossible to predict so we didn't really know what to expect of the vaccines. In general they have worked great and the statistics do back that up. The problem is that the virus mutates rapidly and in such a way that the first vaccines based on the alpha and/or beta strains lose efficacy. That was again something we couldn't predict.

 

The accelerated pace to get the vaccines out was because health care was collapsing or had collapsed all over the place. We were somewhat "lucky" that mRNA vaccines weren't new tech and that the base virus was sort of known (a SARS corona virus). Even if the vaccines would only have been 20% effective, though, that would've been 20% of people that were less likely to pressure health care or not at all. In the end we got something that was like highly effective for at least the first phase of the pandemic.

 

The statement that the vaccines don't do squat against current strains is also not supported by research. The common thread seems to be that the initial two doses indeed wane significantly in both protection against infection and protection against severe complications, but that the boosters still look like they help in a non-negligible way against omicron. There are also signs that if you have been actually infected, the booster grants broader protection in that case compared to people that haven't been infected.

https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/our-story/health-research/news/covid-19-vaccine-protection-against-hospitalization-wanes

Quote

For this study, the researchers analyzed 11,123 hospital admissions and emergency department visits that did not result in hospital admission for acute respiratory infection. The study focused on Kaiser Permanente patient records in Southern California from December 1, 2021, through March 18, 2022, when both the delta and omicron variants were circulating.

• After 2 doses of the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine, effectiveness against omicron was 41% against hospital admission and 31% against emergency department visits at 9 months.
• After 3 doses in immunocompetent individuals, effectiveness against omicron-related hospitalization was 83% at less than 3 months and stayed high at 79% at 3 months or longer.
• After 3 doses in immunocompromised individuals, effectiveness against omicron-related hospitalization was 55% at less than 3 months and waned to 25% at 3 months or longer, although the sample size was small.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-32298-w

Quote

Importantly, at four months post-third vaccination the neutralization activity and antibody affinity against the Omicron subvariants is maintained and trended higher for the individuals with hybrid immunity compared with naïve adults. These findings about hybrid immunity resulting in superior immune kinetics, breadth, and durable high affinity antibodies support the need for booster vaccinations to provide effective protection from emerging SARS-CoV-2 variants like the rapidly spreading Omicron subvariants.

 

The unfortunate issue at hand is that we are dealing with unknowns that require time to resovle. We can't predict what the virus will do next, which is why eyes are constantly on many variants that could be cause for concern. We also don't have a "super vaccine" that can target something more stable between mutations yet. Finally we don't really know if we can get long-lasting immunity and what that requires, but the only way to find that out is to study how much it drops over time and how the number of doses affects that drop. These are of course all things that don't exactly spur confidence in the general public, but it's what we have to deal with.

[captain_to_fire]

2 hours ago, Sir Beregond said:

At this point, I have no interest in additional boosters until they reformulate to something that works for the newest strain.

Moderna's mRNA-1273.214 (OG + Omicron BA.1) and mRNA-1273.222 (Omicron BA.4 & BA.5) is on the way, probably available around Q3 and Q4. Novavax is also updating their protein based vaccine to the circulating BA.4 and BA.5 which is a good option to those who are hesitant of mRNA vaccines being "new" or those who had a very bad reaction to one or two doses in the past.

 

The Coalition on Epidemic Preparedness Innovations (CEPI) is funding research on multi-valent coronavirus vaccine that will target the highly conserved regions of the spike protein, preliminary tests show that it elicits strong immune response not only to the circulating variants but also to coronavirus strains from bats.

2 hours ago, Sir Beregond said:

First when these vaccines came out it was hurry and get them and you won't catch COVID! Then it was, well you'll still catch it, but you won't get hospitalized, then it was that they don't do squat against the current strain and it is basically still spreading wildly.

There's still a lot to improve with the vaccine design and the way we administer vaccines. Unfortunately at the moment, the Covid vaccines are not on the same status as the flu shot where they can simply update it without undergoing a clinical trial.

 

2 hours ago, Sir Beregond said:

Frankly I am disappointed in the vaccines. Not that I don't think they didn't work when they first came out to help prevent serious illness/hospitalization

As someone who had Covid last April, I'm glad that I was vaccinated and boosted especially as someone with an autoimmune disease maintained on Etanercept. While it didn't completely protected me from getting ill, all I got was a sore throat and cough. I would've ended on an ICU if I didn't get vaccinated.

 

[Sir Beregond]

6 hours ago, tikker said:

There will be breakthrough infections and people on which the vaccine works lesser. They also simply (and naturally) are a certain amount less effective against the new strains, so it makes sense that you can still get it even after 4 shots. The flu shot follows the same principle. This is why last year's shot is no longer "valid" for this year and the way they update the shot is also by monitoring the population and checking what is going around. The shot is then tuned for the variants they expect to be most prevalent. With how fast SARS-CoV-2 mutates, I think that it's a likely scenario that it'll be a yearly thing for now.

I think it's important to reiterate that the point of the vaccine was never to make you 100% watertight against ever catching COVID-19. The point of vaccines is to introduce your body to the threat in a controlled way such that it can immediately fight it at least somewhat, preferrably effectively, on the first real encounter. The efficacy of vaccines, how many shots are needed for long-term immunity, if long-term immunity can even be achieved, what kind of vaccination fraction you need for herd immunity (of which COVID-19 is still on the unlikely to happen list as far as I know) all vary on a disease-by-disease basis. For a new disease it is hard if not impossible to predict so we didn't really know what to expect of the vaccines. In general they have worked great and the statistics do back that up. The problem is that the virus mutates rapidly and in such a way that the first vaccines based on the alpha and/or beta strains lose efficacy. That was again something we couldn't predict.

 

The accelerated pace to get the vaccines out was because health care was collapsing or had collapsed all over the place. We were somewhat "lucky" that mRNA vaccines weren't new tech and that the base virus was sort of known (a SARS corona virus). Even if the vaccines would only have been 20% effective, though, that would've been 20% of people that were less likely to pressure health care or not at all. In the end we got something that was like highly effective for at least the first phase of the pandemic.

 

The statement that the vaccines don't do squat against current strains is also not supported by research. The common thread seems to be that the initial two doses indeed wane significantly in both protection against infection and protection against severe complications, but that the boosters still look like they help in a non-negligible way against omicron. There are also signs that if you have been actually infected, the booster grants broader protection in that case compared to people that haven't been infected.

https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/our-story/health-research/news/covid-19-vaccine-protection-against-hospitalization-wanes

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-32298-w

 

The unfortunate issue at hand is that we are dealing with unknowns that require time to resovle. We can't predict what the virus will do next, which is why eyes are constantly on many variants that could be cause for concern. We also don't have a "super vaccine" that can target something more stable between mutations yet. Finally we don't really know if we can get long-lasting immunity and what that requires, but the only way to find that out is to study how much it drops over time and how the number of doses affects that drop. These are of course all things that don't exactly spur confidence in the general public, but it's what we have to deal with.

Thank you for this post, very informative and gives me some things to read up on.

5 hours ago, captain_to_fire said:

Moderna's mRNA-1273.214 (OG + Omicron BA.1) and mRNA-1273.222 (Omicron BA.4 & BA.5) is on the way, probably available around Q3 and Q4. Novavax is also updating their protein based vaccine to the circulating BA.4 and BA.5 which is a good option to those who are hesitant of mRNA vaccines being "new" or those who had a very bad reaction to one or two doses in the past.

 

The Coalition on Epidemic Preparedness Innovations (CEPI) is funding research on multi-valent coronavirus vaccine that will target the highly conserved regions of the spike protein, preliminary tests show that it elicits strong immune response not only to the circulating variants but also to coronavirus strains from bats.

There's still a lot to improve with the vaccine design and the way we administer vaccines. Unfortunately at the moment, the Covid vaccines are not on the same status as the flu shot where they can simply update it without undergoing a clinical trial.

 

As someone who had Covid last April, I'm glad that I was vaccinated and boosted especially as someone with an autoimmune disease maintained on Etanercept. While it didn't completely protected me from getting ill, all I got was a sore throat and cough. I would've ended on an ICU if I didn't get vaccinated.

 

Oh I likewise am happy to be vaccinated (2 Pfizers and a Moderna booster). I guess I was just hoping it would end up like others where it actually prevented you from catching it. But it makes sense what @tikker said, disease by disease basis, plus rapid mutations.

 

I've lucked out and have so far still avoided it. With any luck, can hopefully keep that up until new Omicron formulated boosters are out and I can get one.

[Andreas Lilja]

5th dose reporting in. Surprised that I were eligible.

[Sir Beregond]

1 hour ago, Andreas Lilja said:

5th dose reporting in. Surprised that I were eligible.

Didn't even know areas were doing 5th doses yet. Is it the same vaccine as the originals or is this the one they redid for the Omicron strains?

[Andreas Lilja]

7 minutes ago, Sir Beregond said:

Didn't even know areas were doing 5th doses yet. Is it the same vaccine as the originals or is this the one they redid for the Omicron strains?

Omnicro strain vaccine is coming in two months the nurse said. I was told I could get it as my 6th.