5G Masts set light to, Engineers attacked over virus rumours

[dalekphalm]

On 4/4/2020 at 1:44 PM, BuckGup said:

5G has been shown to screw with our radar technology for weather so 5G does have some concerns 

Source?

[Sakkura]

2 hours ago, BuckGup said:

It's not that it makes the models noisy it's the fact is it's very close to the frequency of water in the atmosphere so it would report false positives for clouds and storms 

No. Water doesn't have an absorption band at 60GHz. Molecular oxygen does, but that won't help you detect clouds and storms.

 

Other mm-wave frequencies used in 5G can be another story, but the real-world implications overall just aren't that serious.

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Phill104 said:

I often feel people run down the education system and all the effort our youth put into it. Every year the exam results are lambasted and questioned. The usual tabloid suspects spout bile every results season. The usual “in my day” crap flows in torrents. I am quite certain that almost none of those that spout this could not cope with modern education and the pressure our youth are put under. To some extent I agree that kids are taught at school to pass exams. However, their education is more rounded than many think. When we finish education and enter the world of work, we are still not cooked, we have a lot to learn. Employers know that, and they continue educating people. School and Uni teach us how to work, how to socialise and give us the knowledge we need to begin the journey. Work is when we learn to apply that knowledge, how to put it all together. Education via this route also gives us a choice of the career we wish to go down. Some suggest days gone by, where we grow up in a job was better. For a minority that may work, but it stifles growth. I have huge respect for all those that make it through our education system, and all the pressure they are placed under growing up in the modern world.

 

Either way, It is wrong to suggest a lack of general education is what drives conspiracy theories and belief in them. It is a combination of fear, and lack of understanding of a particular subject. I would not expect an astrophysicist to understand brain surgery, or a mathematician to understand poetry. These highly educated people specialise in their fields, and as such will still have innate fears of Things they do not understand or have control of. Even when we understand something, we can still fear it, such as doctors with Covid 19. We have many of these highly educated people, scientists, who still have their faith despite all the evidence. That is grounded in fear. If humans can have belief in a deity despite their level of education, then conspiracies can also thrive. It is part of our makeup and will take a lot more evolution to change.

 

Sorry if that ran away a bit, I just wanted to defend all the hard work our young put in. A few spoil it and mage the majority look bad.

I think it's prudent to remind people that not all education systems are a pile of shit.   Just to further what you are saying,  it is actually very hard to teach people to think critically about things.  You can teach people to ask questions and look for holes in quotes etc, but you can't actually change the thought process and the drivers behind it.  That requires a therapist and years of cognitive behavior therapy and I suggest that it is really not appropriate to put the average healthy teenager through.  

 

You can give people facts and you can teach them how psychology works (with regard to conspiracies and evidence and human response), but you cannot make them understand it and you cannot make them adopt a resilience to their own innate driving psyche.   

 

I just want to reiterate what I said earlier because it probably sounds like it contradicts this.  Education and experience go a long way to reducing a belief in a conspiracy, but that is specific education/experience, e.g there aren't too many nuclear physicists who think nuclear is dangerous to the point that it should be shut down and forgotten. There aren't that many  biologists who believe vaccines cause autism (in fact there are very few of any medical profession who believe that).   General education can be excellent, but it isn't the only thing you need to help people think critically about things.

[CarlBar]

1 hour ago, Phill104 said:

I often feel people run down the education system and all the effort our youth put into it. Every year the exam results are lambasted and questioned. The usual tabloid suspects spout bile every results season. The usual “in my day” crap flows in torrents. I am quite certain that almost none of those that spout this could not cope with modern education and the pressure our youth are put under. To some extent I agree that kids are taught at school to pass exams. However, their education is more rounded than many think. When we finish education and enter the world of work, we are still not cooked, we have a lot to learn. Employers know that, and they continue educating people. School and Uni teach us how to work, how to socialise and give us the knowledge we need to begin the journey. Work is when we learn to apply that knowledge, how to put it all together. Education via this route also gives us a choice of the career we wish to go down. Some suggest days gone by, where we grow up in a job was better. For a minority that may work, but it stifles growth. I have huge respect for all those that make it through our education system, and all the pressure they are placed under growing up in the modern world.

 

Either way, It is wrong to suggest a lack of general education is what drives conspiracy theories and belief in them. It is a combination of fear, and lack of understanding of a particular subject. I would not expect an astrophysicist to understand brain surgery, or a mathematician to understand poetry. These highly educated people specialise in their fields, and as such will still have innate fears of Things they do not understand or have control of. Even when we understand something, we can still fear it, such as doctors with Covid 19. We have many of these highly educated people, scientists, who still have their faith despite all the evidence. That is grounded in fear. If humans can have belief in a deity despite their level of education, then conspiracies can also thrive. It is part of our makeup and will take a lot more evolution to change.

 

Sorry if that ran away a bit, I just wanted to defend all the hard work our young put in. A few spoil it and mage the majority look bad.

 

First don't worry about running away your were fine.

 

Second, i am not in any way attacking the amount of effort our youth put into their schooling. If it was tough the teachers wouldn't be so pressed for time to teach it.

 

Third, i'm not in any way suggesting that an astrophysicist, (or your local supermarket staff), need to know how to do brain surgery. But if asked a question that involves things they allready know they should in general be able to answer that question even if it wasn't a rote answer on their school test.

 

 

However there's one very big, (and one smaller), issue with your argument. It assumes that employers will do the work of teaching people how to do critical thinking. As evidenced by their constant complaints however many companies don't want to do that, and worse there's enormous numbers of jobs where there is little or no need for the ability to do critical thinking so people who start there have zero clue whatsoever about how to do it and will never pick it up. And some employers as leandeater alluded to absolutely despise any kind of independent thought and do everything they can to crush it.

 

 

The issue here is that a lot, (not all but a lot), of conspiracy theories involve claims that the majority of people with a high school level education should have the information available to them to be able to declare it a load of bull. But a significant chunk of people despite possessing the required knowledge won't be able to do so. Fortunately not all of them will buy into the conspiracy theory, they just mark the question as "unknown answer" in their head and promptly forget about it. But giving more of them the ability to to answer it correctly not only means a bunch of them won't start to believe it, but gives you more people out there that can fight the spread by explaining to others that don't know and are unsure what the answer is and how to get there.

 

In many ways the spread of conspiracy theories and other misinformation itself resembles the spread of an infectious disease It starts with a few people who are either seriously confused or outright malicious suggesting somthing to a bunch of people, (someone allready infected going out and interacting with people), some of them will have the ability to recognise it's a load of bull, (they've become immune), many won't, and some of those who don't know will start to believe it, (they got infected and "died") whilst a whole bunch of the rest will remain unsure, (they were exposed but avoided infection). As more people believe it and apparent experts or simply influential celebrities start to believe it all those unsure people are i danger of starting to believe it too. Having more people who can know better however does a lot to dead end the conspiracy because your going to have increased pushback against it early on and all those unsure people are increasingly likely to hear an explanation of why it's wrong early on.

 

42 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I think it's prudent to remind people that not all education systems are a pile of shit.   Just to further what you are saying,  it is actually very hard to teach people to think critically about things.  You can teach people to ask questions and look for holes in quotes etc, but you can't actually change the thought process and the drivers behind it.  That requires a therapist and years of cognitive behavior therapy and I suggest that it is really not appropriate to put the average healthy teenager through.  

 

You can give people facts and you can teach them how psychology works (with regard to conspiracies and evidence and human response), but you cannot make them understand it and you cannot make them adopt a resilience to their own innate driving psyche.   

 

I just want to reiterate what I said earlier because it probably sounds like it contradicts this.  Education and experience go a long way to reducing a belief in a conspiracy, but that is specific education/experience, e.g there aren't too many nuclear physicists who think nuclear is dangerous to the point that it should be shut down and forgotten. There aren't that many  biologists who believe vaccines cause autism (in fact there are very few of any medical profession who believe that).   General education can be excellent, but it isn't the only thing you need to help people think critically about things.

 

To be clear i'm very much aware it's difficult to teach ;). But i genuinely feel not enough effort is made to encourage it in schools in the first place. In fact at tims the "teaching to the test" that goes on can actively discourage it.

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

 

To be clear i'm very much aware it's difficult to teach ;). But i genuinely feel not enough effort is made to encourage it in schools in the first place. In fact at tims the "teaching to the test" that goes on can actively discourage it.

That maybe more a US thing than general thing, While there are always people who don;t like the system (as nothing is perfect) It's a core part of the curriculum here in Australia and it's hard to teach to the test when the entire system is evaluated independently for its merit and how it can be improved (i.e exams change and designed to demonstrate the application of knowledge).   It is also being heavily debated that the level of education can't actually be improved here without a major cultural change (i.e throwing more money and resources won't change outcomes, but parental involvement and expectations could).

 

 

[BuckGup]

2 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

Source?

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/05/5g-networks-will-likely-interfere-with-us-weather-satellites-navy-warns/

[CarlBar]

18 minutes ago, mr moose said:

That maybe more a US thing than general thing, While there are always people who don;t like the system (as nothing is perfect) It's a core part of the curriculum here in Australia and it's hard to teach to the test when the entire system is evaluated independently for its merit and how it can be improved (i.e exams change and designed to demonstrate the application of knowledge).   It is also being heavily debated that the level of education can't actually be improved here without a major cultural change (i.e throwing more money and resources won't change outcomes, but parental involvement and expectations could).

 

 

 

I'm in the UK actually. And i imagine it does vary a lot from place to place. 

[mr moose]

6 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

 

I'm in the UK actually. And i imagine it does vary a lot from place to place. 

I thought the UK had a better system,  I did see a sixty symbols video where the physics department professors were illustrating major flaws with the secondary education system in terms of students understanding the requirements of science at a university level.  But that to me is more reflective of what I said earlier where humans can't actually be taught to understand a concept, they have to experience it and react to it first.   So technically students can't be prepared for a large portion of life outside school, the best we can do is tell them and hope they take it on board.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, CarlBar said:

 

I'm in the UK actually. And i imagine it does vary a lot from place to place. 

I actually spent a couple of years in education in Aus but most of my education in the UK so to some extent can compare the two. They are not, or were not in the 80s, that different in the styles and methods employed. One return to the UK I had two years private education as a border. That was different in some ways partly due to smaller class sizes of 3-5 per master and partly because there was more encouragement to question. Methods and content were the same. On returning to state education In the early 90s I did not feel it was lacking in that area, just less time due to larger class sizes. Seeing my children go through that same education system they are taught at a faster rate with a lot more information to study and digest. They should enter A levels better prepared and again to higher education. These days there is more of a curve than a series of large jumps, suicide figures have certainly dropped as a result.

 

As Mr Moose says, experience outside of school has a big impact on understanding of any subject. Education gives us the tools, and if anything is lacking in the UK it is parental input. 
 

Whichever way you look at it, belief in conspiracy theories and general nut job concepts is not exclusive to any country. People believe at similar levels throughout the world as plenty of studies suggest. Reporting is just more prevalent in certain nations such as here in the UK.

[Theminecraftaddict555]

On 4/4/2020 at 12:04 PM, Phill104 said:

Seems the world has gone even more nuts.

Biggest understatement of 2020.....

[Theminecraftaddict555]

Does Iran have 5g btw? Some conspiranuts have been claiming that they do. So far from what I have researched they haven't even put them up yet..

[dalekphalm]

4 hours ago, BuckGup said:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/05/5g-networks-will-likely-interfere-with-us-weather-satellites-navy-warns/

So that specifically refers to 24GHz - also known as frequency band n258. There are only two countries using that hand - UAE and Italy. 
 

The vast majority are using different bands like 28GHz instead. 
 

I think we’ll be okay. 

[Commodus]

6 hours ago, JoshPW99 said:

If people have concerns over something why is their first thought to destroy it ? Why wouldn't they research the subject - ah I forgot this would be some form of smart thinking.

 

Also why attack the guys putting these up? If you are really worried about the effect 5G is having wouldn't you want to just protest them doing the work or 'warn' them about the danger. The level of stupidity is unreal.

 

P.S. First comment ever !  

Welcome!

 

And simply speaking, this appears to be a product of basic human instinct.  We fear what we don't understand and seek to destroy it, because those impulses help you survive in the wild.  And it can be difficult to overcome that instinct when it affords you simpler (if wrong) explanations.

 

The problem, of course, us that it's not hard to understand things like the frequency level of radiation needed to mutate genes and potentially create viruses.  But that requires accepting that there isn't a simple fix like "destroy all 5G towers."

[Curious Pineapple]

9 hours ago, Theminecraftaddict555 said:

Does Iran have 5g btw? Some conspiranuts have been claiming that they do. So far from what I have researched they haven't even put them up yet..

I asked that and got a lecture about Starlink because satellites "carry the 5G signals too", braindead pillocks.

[Brooksie359]

On 4/4/2020 at 3:41 PM, Taf the Ghost said:

Having seen some vague references & discussion around this a couple of days ago, the types that would generally believe this type of rumor wouldn't torch towers. They'd build faraday cages in their homes. So, this is either "local issue we actually don't want to talk about", "we invented this 5G theory to cover something else" or "local gangsters aren't getting their cut and can use the internet as well to find cover". Have to pick some version of those options.

These people are clearly stupid beyond belief. If they thought that 5G was the cause of a virus then they clearly aren't smart enough to understand electromagnetic waves and how to build any sort of protective gear against it. People who are actually intelligent and are concerned about 5G would not be concerned that I would cause a virus but the adverse effects of high powered electromagnetic waves used for 5G. While they are nonionzing they also can cause things to heat up regardless and it is uncertain If that could mess with any processies in the body.

[SpaceGhostC2C]

If they wanted to at least try, they could have said, i don't know, that 5G emissions caused an existing virus to mutate or something, then spread on its own. There would still be no evidence, but hey, at least it's not flat Earth.

 

Anyway, it's a funny topic, although I don't think vandalism is "tech news".

[Taf the Ghost]

1 hour ago, Brooksie359 said:

These people are clearly stupid beyond belief. If they thought that 5G was the cause of a virus then they clearly aren't smart enough to understand electromagnetic waves and how to build any sort of protective gear against it. People who are actually intelligent and are concerned about 5G would not be concerned that I would cause a virus but the adverse effects of high powered electromagnetic waves used for 5G. While they are nonionzing they also can cause things to heat up regardless and it is uncertain If that could mess with any processies in the body.

Part of the brilliant construction of "conspiracy theory", a narrative created by the CIA itself, is that it lets the person standing within the "norm" look down upon the person or group that has brought forward the a theory with a sense of superiority. However, that superiority is utterly unearned, seeing as they are simply repeating information they have been told by a group that claims authority. This works brilliantly for the authority is they gain automatic social rejection of any idea that would consider outside their interest while most of the population unwittingly serves the interests of others and feels great about it. It's one of the earliest examples of what we'd now call r/HailCorporate.

 

You're assuming almost anyone involved in the social media aspect is actually a real person. That's why I said the chatter I'd seen about it would be by people that would be far more likely to build a Faraday Cage and live in it than go about burning down masts. The groups of people open to accepting any idea that's automatically contrarian simply aren't much of a risk. They're contrarians, not would-be autocrats or terrorists.

 

This is why I said in my first post there is something else going on. It's easy enough to Astroturf a conspiracy theory into existence. (Realistically, most of the ones you've heard about were.) What isn't so clear is who stands to gain from vandalism like this, why the UK specifically seems to be the center of anti-5G and what contracts are involved in these networks that problem set most of this off.  It could be as simple as some local conflict between a group and the telco and they can latch onto "crazy internet theory" for easy cover. This approach would work easily well if the Telco really doesn't want any light on whatever the issue at hand is.

 

As for EMR, we'd have a lot more problems already if heavy C Band usage was an issue. There's a definite "cost" to introducing more localized Electromagnetic Radiation, but there doesn't yet seem to be definitive difference compared to other environmental hazards. Or the difference is so slight that literally anything else is really a problem. One of the nicer aspects of radio communication technology is that the elite groups would be impacted the most without the ability to run away from it, so it's surprisingly well tested & documented. One can always count on the elite self-preservation instincts to get useful information from.

[Theminecraftaddict555]

10 hours ago, Curious Pineapple said:

I asked that and got a lecture about Starlink because satellites "carry the 5G signals too", braindead pillocks.

Conspiracy Theorists dodging questions as usual

[Theminecraftaddict555]

Not 100% sure if this meets the guidelines (if not I'll remove it). But I've honestly been seeing more of this Andrew Kaufman guy trying to debunk covid and the "virus theory" & said a few things about 5g. The worst part is that more and more people are starting to follow him. Here are a few video references to show who I'm talking about

 

(him trying to debunk common myths about how viruses spread)

 

 

[CarlBar]

Dear god i got dumber just hearing that. And i didn't listen all the way through. Of course the real scary part is that if you ignore your own science knowledge, it sounds plausible. The narrative hangs together. The base claim, (that we all have an innate vibrational frequency that affects the functioning of our body), is bull. But he then throws in some stuff that given everything else we do and don't know about how cells function is quite plausible. Our cells are full of stuff, we don;t know what a lot of it does and we don;t even know if we know everything that can be in there, and we know some stuff can make it out of the cell but where not sure what, how much, or a whole bunch of other stuff. And our bodies do produce all kinds of things to d all kinds of cleanup both in and outside cells. So theoretically if the base idea where true, everything else is at least theoretically possibble. 

 

Now the idea that you could control such a process en mass hits a few more issues, and again the base assumption is pure bull. But it's scarily well crafted because it uses a lot of known thing and known unknown things about the human body to support itself.

[mr moose]

Looks like we have to take it all back and apologize for calling them morons, there's photographic evidence:

 

 

 

[Guest]

A little video explaining a few things.
 

 

[Theminecraftaddict555]

16 hours ago, CarlBar said:

Dear god i got dumber just hearing that. And i didn't listen all the way through. Of course the real scary part is that if you ignore your own science knowledge, it sounds plausible. The narrative hangs together. The base claim, (that we all have an innate vibrational frequency that affects the functioning of our body), is bull. But he then throws in some stuff that given everything else we do and don't know about how cells function is quite plausible. Our cells are full of stuff, we don;t know what a lot of it does and we don;t even know if we know everything that can be in there, and we know some stuff can make it out of the cell but where not sure what, how much, or a whole bunch of other stuff. And our bodies do produce all kinds of things to d all kinds of cleanup both in and outside cells. So theoretically if the base idea where true, everything else is at least theoretically possibble. 

 

Now the idea that you could control such a process en mass hits a few more issues, and again the base assumption is pure bull. But it's scarily well crafted because it uses a lot of known thing and known unknown things about the human body to support itself.

So I'm assuming you are talking about the video I posted?

[Lady Fitzgerald]

On 4/4/2020 at 11:52 PM, CarlBar said:

 

Bad example to pick there. I've no idea if your old enough to remember the scare over that. I am. It was waaaaaay overblown at the time. You had people believing en mass that failure to fix it would cause power plants to explode, planes to fall out of the sky, hospital equipment to stop working and a hundred other super scary things.

 

As for the topic. Sadly not a suprise, As alluded to further up confront people with somthing they don't understand and they have a nasty habit of reacting negatively. For most of us that just takes the form of being really cautious about it ij some way or another. But some people instead get angry, or suffer outright panic attacks. People in that state tend to lash out at whatever is upsetting them. And then you get stuff like this.

The Y2K bug was a serious problem that had the potential to essentially shut down the world. However, the fix was simple. Instead having date fields dropping the first two digits of the year (such as 01 instead 1901 or 2001), software, etc. was rewritten to include all four digits of the year. Had not such a fuss been raised, people may not have been motivated to do the fix.

 

Btw, the next crisis, if not fixed by then (mostly by discontinuing 32 bit systems), will be 2038.

 

 

On 4/5/2020 at 6:51 AM, gabrielcarvfer said:

https://edition.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/11/14/coolsc.frogs.fish/

 

https://health.usnews.com/health-care/patient-advice/articles/2017-08-02/fish-exposed-to-wastewater-absorb-many-medications-meant-for-people

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/02/fish-becoming-transgender-contraceptive-pill-chemicals-flushed/

 

While medications in our waste water can cause various mutations, many animals, including amphibians and fish have been capable of spontaneous sex change for millennia, usually in response to a shortage of one sex or from triggers as simple as temperature change. I have seen swordtails, guppies, and mollies I kept in aquarioums around 30 years ago spontaneously change sex. Clown fish are also known to spontaneously change sex. Many of these fish live in SSA streams and rivers or just off our coasts (mollies live in brackish water along our eastern coasts and can survive well in both fresh and sea water).

 

These spontaneous sex changes do not fit the definition of transgender.

 

On 4/5/2020 at 7:43 AM, captain_to_fire said:

Not to derail this thread, But of course, pollutants in the water affect aquatic life but also other life forms including humans but that old CNN article doesn’t even mention animals becoming homosexuals, or to that effect.

I’m not sure if I’m taking the last article seriously as it lacks citation of a primary source. All it says is that this Professor did a research but it simply failed to cite it.

Homosexuality occurs naturally in nature. Homosexuality, spontaneous sex change, and transgender are not the same things.

 

 

On 4/5/2020 at 9:54 AM, Phill104 said:

The ability to change sex is actually quite common in the natural world. Some bird species do it for instance, such as mandarin ducks. In amphibians and reptiles it is more common than you might realise. The switch can be as simple as temperature related. 

Thank you!

[CarlBar]

1 hour ago, Theminecraftaddict555 said:

So I'm assuming you are talking about the video I posted?

 

Yes.