5G Masts set light to, Engineers attacked over virus rumours

[YellowJersey]

13 hours ago, mr moose said:

I find it quite easy to be skeptical of government and cautious of people with more power than I,  however I also find it unhelpful to believe anything willynilly without some form of evidence.    Most conspiracies never turn out to be true, there are enough conspiracies that a few random ones do turn out to be true, but it's not that many. I think the issue is that for rational people, things like 5eyes, the snowden leaks, NSA and stingray, etc are not crazy, but anything that requires making assumptions and leaps of logic combined with ignoring obvious evidence are conspiracies that will never likely come true.  Things like the chemtrails, vaccines being dangerous or part of a conspiracy, the moon landing etc.     Believing the earth is flat or that 5g gives you coronavirus is in no way a consequence of governments being dodgy, not trusting the government with your emails may well be consequence of things they have done.

People are also colossally stupid. Stupidity is like jello: there's always room for jello.

[mr moose]

 

14 minutes ago, Sauron said: 

Well, I did say believe. Obviously money can get you to preach it but not necessarily to believe it. As for fear... does it overrule education? Something like this isn't a momentary reflex where you had no time to think.

 

Fear is enough to drive a normally rational person to do anything.  If the fear is strong enough it will over rule years of training.  Humans have evolved with fear being the biggest driver of nearly all traits.  It's why we are racist, why we don't like change, why we look for patterns.  Nearly everything we do has its roots in fear.

14 minutes ago, Sauron said:

The problem with the "turning the frogs gay" thing isn't whether it's true or not - that doesn't even matter to be honest. The fact that someone looked at plastic pollution and their takeaway was that this was being done on purpose specifically to turn frogs gay is what makes it insane.

Exactly,  there is definitely a divide between shit behavior to hide an illegal activity and ascribing motive to a condition that may or may not be actual.  Both are conspiracies, but the later is the more common (colloquial) definition of a conspiracy.

14 minutes ago, Sauron said:

 

Area 51 was a conspiracy, they were building spy planes in defiance of international law and used alien conspiracy theories as a cover. Guess what, nutters are still raving on about the aliens despite having proof they were building spy planes and planting alien conspiracy theories. None of them thought of spy planes at the time.

 

That's all BS, they were all weather balloons and swamp gas. 

 

[CarlBar]

4 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Well, I did say believe. Obviously money can get you to preach it but not necessarily to believe it. As for fear... does it overrule education? Something like this isn't a momentary reflex where you had no time to think.

 

 think here your conflating fear and panic. A lot of people right now are fearful about how they're going to pay the bills, feed them and their families, and weather anyone they know will die from the virus. But only a very small number of people are having outright hysterics over it where they completely break down and act in colloquial terms. Insane.

 

But all those scared people are still going out and doing things specifically because they're afraid of all those things. Stocking up on groceries is just one form of expression of this.

 

Another thing you have to remember is that a lot of the coocky stuff is/was started by people who were respected by the people that buy into it.

[TechyBen]

45 minutes ago, YellowJersey said:

People are also colossally stupid. Stupidity is like jello: there's always room for jello.

This. I'm not clever by any metric (Hello Mr Moose, I know your reading this and will remember our "discussions" that took me a while to get to what we mean in the forum posts ) *but* I can usually work any task with instructions or being shown.

 

I find verbal instructions hard when they are ambiguous "put the thing to the left", is that my left or your left of the things left? Or use buzzwords/specialist words "the injector is near the compressor and you just need to undo the bolt (lol, which of the tens of bolts!) and flip if over to see if the fuel lines are free of air and the compressor is getting air from the air lines" (thankfully I did figure out what each of those were, but verbally, I just had a bunch of words to match to a bunch of pipes and no way to know until I physically traced each one).

 

But show me, and I can follow it.

 

However, I know lots of people who are very clever, do lots of stuff... but completely and utterly turn into jello when asked to do a task they are afraid of. This might be maths, reading or "computers". They smash the PC with a hammer, and when you ask why they say "the instructions said to press the button, so I did, with a hammer". I just have no answer. Or when talking about math they go "duh hur why would anyone do that" and I'm like, "so you know how much your spending/it costs/etc". Or go "but I cannot read so..." and quickly forget I was in the same shoes as them, and they can read, it's just slow/hard and takes *time*.

 

And as we are seeing. Those are the factors. lack of time (and panicking about this), fear, greed, bias or desire overriding fact and knowledge and truth. As an example, the most often I end up with a blade, hammer, screw driver or saw in my hand/legs is when I'm rushing or afraid I'll slip. XD I do something stupid. But I at least try not to do the same when it comes to understanding the world, locally in small things and globally in big things.

[Sauron]

7 hours ago, mr moose said:

Fear is enough to drive a normally rational person to do anything.  If the fear is strong enough it will over rule years of training.  Humans have evolved with fear being the biggest driver of nearly all traits.  It's why we are racist, why we don't like change, why we look for patterns.  Nearly everything we do has its roots in fear.

Meh, I don't see it. Sure, fear and desperation can drive you to do even irrational things but this? This is just too absurd. Anyone with a middle school understanding of biology could tell you this is bullshit.

7 hours ago, mr moose said:

That's all BS, they were all weather balloons and swamp gas. 

Actually no, it was pretty definitively spy planes. It's all in declassified documents from 2013. It's not even a mystery or a conjecture, it's common knowledge now. Area 51 was where they originally tested the U-2 planes used to take high altitude photos of the USSR before satellites were a thing. The U-2 would fly at really high altitudes for the time and it was kind of shiny so... aliens I guess.

7 hours ago, CarlBar said:

 think here your conflating fear and panic. A lot of people right now are fearful about how they're going to pay the bills, feed them and their families, and weather anyone they know will die from the virus. But only a very small number of people are having outright hysterics over it where they completely break down and act in colloquial terms. Insane.

That's kind of my point actually, fear alone cannot justify this - as you say, plenty of people are rightfully scared and only a few of them thought this made any sense.

7 hours ago, CarlBar said:

But all those scared people are still going out and doing things specifically because they're afraid of all those things. Stocking up on groceries is just one form of expression of this.

That's one thing that, while irrational, sort of makes sense on a surface level. 5G spreading a virus... does not.

7 hours ago, CarlBar said:

Another thing you have to remember is that a lot of the coocky stuff is/was started by people who were respected by the people that buy into it.

Yes, I did touch on this though I had to stop before breaking the community standards.

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

Meh, I don't see it. Sure, fear and desperation can drive you to do even irrational things but this? This is just too absurd. Anyone with a middle school understanding of biology could tell you this is bullshit.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181681/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-new-resilience/201303/why-your-fears-shape-so-much-your-life

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2010/04/when-social-fear-disappears-so-does-racism

https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/nurturing-self-compassion/201709/the-psychology-behind-racism

 

Fear is actually a very huge part of human psychology.  It has been observed as a root of many human traits.  Ignore that to your own peril.

 

EDIT: also just to add, look at most sales pitches for health insurance, life insurance and home security,  there is a reason they all use fear tactics,  fear sells because it has a much larger impact on people than they realize.   It's also why people fall victim to vaccine avoidance as they fear it causes autism, why normally rational people will go see an acupuncturist when modern medicine can do no more (in some cases along side conventional treatments).

 

Quote

Actually no, it was pretty definitively spy planes. It's all in declassified documents from 2013. It's not even a mystery or a conjecture, it's common knowledge now. Area 51 was where they originally tested the U-2 planes used to take high altitude photos of the USSR before satellites were a thing. The U-2 would fly at really high altitudes for the

time and it was kind of shiny so... aliens I guess.

That was a joke, I wasn't being serious,  Every time there is a sighting or something the official response was always played out as weather balloons or swam gas.

 

 

 

 

 

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

Meh, I don't see it. Sure, fear and desperation can drive you to do even irrational things but this? This is just too absurd. Anyone with a middle school understanding of biology could tell you this is bullshit.

Have you watched "Are you Smarter than a 10th Grader?". That collection of people is scarily large, and even if they learnt it they have forgotten now. Learned stupidly/incompetence is actually a thing too, put someone in a bad environment or workplace and they will regress and I've seen it to the point where I'd seriously question their ability to do more than pack groceries (but even that badly). It's sad to watch someone come in and actually be good, prompt, willing and see their soul literally being crushed.

 

I don't think people being driven to this is all that absurd at all, but neither is it for people using the opportunity to do wanted vandalism and destruction of property either. Could be both. There are people who intentionally drive and coerce them in to doing it also, variation on mob mentality. 

[realpetertdm]

Sigh. It's good to be vigilant against some new technologies but... why? What purpose does burning down a 5G mast serve? "Whoo we burned down evil 5G mast, now we just need to get rid of a thousand more"

 

On a bit of an unrelated note I do think that they should stop just putting down 5G mmwave equipment and focus first on sub-6GHz 5G for higher bandwith and speeds. mmwave isn't useful right now since the signal can be disrupted by tons of things (like a glass panel), sub-6GHz waves are much more helpful with congestion and other issues. South Korea's installing 5G sub-6GHz bands first before any mmwave ones, don't see why UK or other countries need to go mmwave first.

Also the fact that a lot of phones still don't (can't) support 5G.

 

The only concern that might hold any truth is the one about Huawei 5G equipment. That could be a problem, since China isn't known for privacy or not prying into private data.

 

 

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, mr moose said:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181681/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-new-resilience/201303/why-your-fears-shape-so-much-your-life

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2010/04/when-social-fear-disappears-so-does-racism

https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/nurturing-self-compassion/201709/the-psychology-behind-racism

 

Fear is actually a very huge part of human psychology.  It has been observed as a root of many human traits.  Ignore that to your own peril.

 

EDIT: also just to add, look at most sales pitches for health insurance, life insurance and home security,  there is a reason they all use fear tactics,  fear sells because it has a much larger impact on people than they realize.   It's also why people fall victim to vaccine avoidance as they fear it causes autism, why normally rational people will go see an acupuncturist when modern medicine can do no more (in some cases along side conventional treatments).

.

 

 

 

 

Just to add, certain (IMO vile) British newspapers thrive on selling a mixture of fear and hope. Papers like The Express and Daily Mail regularly use tactics of spouting a new cure on the horizon a week after a cover story of person y dies of disease x. They make their crust from spreading the brown stuff mixed in with a dose of fear. They irresponsibly toy with peoples fears to spread their own political messages and affect peoples lives as a result. It is not just with things like Covid, but immigration, Huwawai, 5G, medical advances and much more. Fear sells their papers.

[leadeater]

18 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

Fear sells their papers.

And if I don't buy it then I wont know what to be afraid of!

Spoiler

Who said perpetual motion wasn't possible

 

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

 

  Hide contents

Who said perpetual motion wasn't possible

 

I dunno, but I bet they were all paid off by big science. edit: or the oil companies, they are the same after all.

[RejZoR]

So this is about the dumb shit thunderf00t was ranting about lol. 5G somehow affecting cells and they would spontaneously create SARS-COV-2 exactly. This is he dumbest shit I've heard in a while. Especially because it's physically impossible. Virus isn't some rogue cell created from some electromagnetic radiation. That would be tumor or something. And even those don't happen from radio frequencies...

[CarlBar]

@Sauron This is aimed at the education thing you brought up.

 

First remember that education has changed over the years. I'm guessing from your comments your younger than me as we didn't learn the stuff to answer the question, (can 5G cause C19), until early/mid high school. There's are doubtless people out there older than me who learned it even later, some may never have been taught it.

 

 

Second, as Leadeater alluded to people forget things. Remember where all tested when we leave school on our knowledge of the subjects we've been taught. But when i was a t school the minimum score for a pass was 70% of all questions right, and not everyone got a pass, (of course some damm near aced the test, i know i did on my maths), so a significant minority of students despite learning the relevant stuff failed to remember it when tested a year or three later. Add in several more years to decades of time after that and the ratio of people that can remember the relevant info to those who can't is going to plummet through the floor.

 

 

Third and finally in the UK at least, (and from what i've heard elsewhere as well), there's a real issue with teachers being forced by an over packed curriculum to do what's referred to as teaching to the test. They teach children to memorise key pieces of info, or how to use specific key formulae to complete a test.They do little if any teaching of how to actually put the random bits of knowledge together to answer a real world question that isn't going to turn up in the test.So whilst many students were taught everything they need to know to answer the question, and can remember it, they may not necessarily have the experiance or ability to combine them independently of what they were taught to derive the answer (can 5G help a virus spread and/or cause a virus to mutate into a specific thing.

 

As a personal anecdote to this last point. When i left school i know i aced my math test to get the final grade i got. But whilst i could do complex math on a piece of paper or with a calculator. But i couldn't do more than the simplest of math in my head. And this was because low level mental arithmetic relied on being able, (taught in infants school), to memorise your times tables. And i just couldn't do it. And there was no teaching of how to do basic arithmetic in your head that didn't rely on memorise the answer by rote. I had to through use in the real world of the principles i could remember develop my own mental system after finishing high school to do complex math in my head. I'm pretty good at it these days, but when i left school i utterly sucked.

[Sauron]

8 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

First remember that education has changed over the years. I'm guessing from your comments your younger than me as we didn't learn the stuff to answer the question, (can 5G cause C19), until early/mid high school. There's are doubtless people out there older than me who learned it even later, some may never have been taught it.

That is kind of my point - poor education.

10 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

Third and finally in the UK at least, (and from what i've heard elsewhere as well), there's a real issue with teachers being forced by an over packed curriculum to do what's referred to as teaching to the test. They teach children to memorise key pieces of info, or how to use specific key formulae to complete a test.They do little if any teaching of how to actually put the random bits of knowledge together to answer a real world question that isn't going to turn up in the test.So whilst many students were taught everything they need to know to answer the question, and can remember it, they may not necessarily have the experiance or ability to combine them independently of what they were taught to derive the answer (can 5G help a virus spread and/or cause a virus to mutate into a specific thing.

Yeah, I call that a failure of the educational system.

[CarlBar]

4 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Yeah, I call that a failure of the educational system.

 

And yet thats how education has been for most of at least the last 100 years across most of the developed world. The UK isn't unique in these issues and they aren't unique to any single generation. I agree it's a flaw, critical thinking is painfully underemphasized, but it's also normal. The argument "anyone who did X schools years should know better" does not work when somthing like this is the norm and has been for a long time.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

 

And yet thats how education has been for most of at least the last 100 years across most of the developed world. The UK isn't unique in these issues and they aren't unique to any single generation. I agree it's a flaw, critical thinking is painfully underemphasized, but it's also normal. The argument "anyone who did X schools years should know better" does not work when somthing like this is the norm and has been for a long time.

I have a decent standard of education, much of it done during times of teacher strikes that we had lots of in Thatcher’s Britain. I went on to higher education for a number of years. My kids are well educated with the youngest currently in education here in the UK. I am not suggesting our system is perfect, but it far from the low level our press portray. I have seen my children pushed hard in all their subjects, coming home with hours of homework every day. It is unfair to suggest that is it the norm here to have a poor education, it is not.

 

 

[Sauron]

18 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

And yet thats how education has been for most of at least the last 100 years across most of the developed world.

Yes, exactly. Some countries are worse than others but still, it's a widespread issue.

18 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

The UK isn't unique in these issues and they aren't unique to any single generation.

Indeed. I don't recall saying otherwise

30 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

The argument "anyone who did X schools years should know better" does not work when somthing like this is the norm and has been for a long time.

They should know better. If they don't I consider it a problem with the system, as I said.

[Bramimond]

On 4/5/2020 at 5:40 PM, Derangel said:

And how many of those have been uncovered by conspiracy theory nuts?

All of them. It's just that you stop calling people nuts once they are proven to be correct. Kind of like that paranoia demotivator pointing out that it isn't paranoia if they really are out to get you.

[TechyBen]

Yeah, and the hilarious thing is, this year "don't worry about the exams" is the spoken line. So all those years spent stressing about exams? Turns out it was just a bit of paper at the end of the day saying you could get a job or not.

3 minutes ago, Bramimond said:

All of them. It's just that you stop calling people nuts once they are proven to be correct. Kind of like that paranoia demotivator pointing out that it isn't paranoia if they really are out to get you.

Not really. If I see a road leading down a hill, I can say "it goes somewhere, possibly to the ground" or I can say "it goes to fairy land". Those are not equal.

[Derangel]

45 minutes ago, Bramimond said:

All of them. It's just that you stop calling people nuts once they are proven to be correct. Kind of like that paranoia demotivator pointing out that it isn't paranoia if they really are out to get you.

 

The majority of conspiracies are uncovered via investigations, journalism, leaks from people inside, or just outright incompetence by the people involved. "A broken clock is right twice a day" applies to conspiracy nuts. Once in a great while, something they say turns out to have some basis in truth.

[Sauron]

1 hour ago, Bramimond said:

All of them. It's just that you stop calling people nuts once they are proven to be correct. Kind of like that paranoia demotivator pointing out that it isn't paranoia if they really are out to get you.

Not really, usually it's declassified documents or whistleblowers that uncover actual conspiracies. You can tell a nut from a whistleblower because the former doesn't have the slightest trace of proof and their theory makes no logical sense. For example in this case it can't ever be proven correct because it's scientifically impossible.

41 minutes ago, comander said:

I'm pretty sure that 60GHz signals aren't going to be making their way out to over the ocean. 

They could, given enough power. What they definitely can't do is transmit a virus.

[StDragon]

Stupidity at its finest! 5Ghz is NON-Ionizing radiation. Ergo, can't fracture the genome (DNA). Thus, won't cause cancer.

 

Amplitude is another thing entirely. If cranked up real high, you can cook with it (folds proteins). But you'd need to have microwave oven like power output for that to occur. That, or stand in front of a ground based SATCOM dish. And I mean right in front of it for a long period of time.

 

Phones, and WiFi. Not an issue. Inverse square law and all that.

 

Anyone that tells you that cellular and 5G can cause cancer should immediately turn in their physics card. And if they're right, they just earned a Nobel Prize in Physics for discovering a new phenomenon! 

[BuckGup]

1 hour ago, comander said:

I'm pretty sure that 60GHz signals aren't going to be making their way out to over the ocean. 
Also farmland is sparsely populated so you'll likely be using lower band frequencies. 

Beyond that, modern signal processing is generally good enough to filter out noise. 

It's not that it makes the models noisy it's the fact is it's very close to the frequency of water in the atmosphere so it would report false positives for clouds and storms 

[CarlBar]

2 hours ago, Phill104 said:

I have a decent standard of education, much of it done during times of teacher strikes that we had lots of in Thatcher’s Britain. I went on to higher education for a number of years. My kids are well educated with the youngest currently in education here in the UK. I am not suggesting our system is perfect, but it far from the low level our press portray. I have seen my children pushed hard in all their subjects, coming home with hours of homework every day. It is unfair to suggest that is it the norm here to have a poor education, it is not.

 

 

 

There's a huge difference between teaching someone lots of facts and teaching them how to use those facts to come to their own conclusions. The first is somthing the school system does very well, (again i can speak from experiance), whilst the latter is somthing the school system does very badly. And it does it badly mostly because teachers just barely have enough time to teach their students the raw facts. Getting them to do the extensive real world examples of those facts in use that is required to learn to use them to draw conclusions isn't somthing the teachers have time for and the tests and coursework don't test for it for the most part. It's not restricted just to regular school education ethier. Many industries that require a university degree have issues with new graduettes knowing the raw subject matter but being ignorant of putting it into real world use cases in one fashion or another.

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

 

There's a huge difference between teaching someone lots of facts and teaching them how to use those facts to come to their own conclusions. The first is somthing the school system does very well, (again i can speak from experiance), whilst the latter is somthing the school system does very badly. And it does it badly mostly because teachers just barely have enough time to teach their students the raw facts. Getting them to do the extensive real world examples of those facts in use that is required to learn to use them to draw conclusions isn't somthing the teachers have time for and the tests and coursework don't test for it for the most part. It's not restricted just to regular school education ethier. Many industries that require a university degree have issues with new graduettes knowing the raw subject matter but being ignorant of putting it into real world use cases in one fashion or another.

I often feel people run down the education system and all the effort our youth put into it. Every year the exam results are lambasted and questioned. The usual tabloid suspects spout bile every results season. The usual “in my day” crap flows in torrents. I am quite certain that almost none of those that spout this could not cope with modern education and the pressure our youth are put under. To some extent I agree that kids are taught at school to pass exams. However, their education is more rounded than many think. When we finish education and enter the world of work, we are still not cooked, we have a lot to learn. Employers know that, and they continue educating people. School and Uni teach us how to work, how to socialise and give us the knowledge we need to begin the journey. Work is when we learn to apply that knowledge, how to put it all together. Education via this route also gives us a choice of the career we wish to go down. Some suggest days gone by, where we grow up in a job was better. For a minority that may work, but it stifles growth. I have huge respect for all those that make it through our education system, and all the pressure they are placed under growing up in the modern world.

 

Either way, It is wrong to suggest a lack of general education is what drives conspiracy theories and belief in them. It is a combination of fear, and lack of understanding of a particular subject. I would not expect an astrophysicist to understand brain surgery, or a mathematician to understand poetry. These highly educated people specialise in their fields, and as such will still have innate fears of Things they do not understand or have control of. Even when we understand something, we can still fear it, such as doctors with Covid 19. We have many of these highly educated people, scientists, who still have their faith despite all the evidence. That is grounded in fear. If humans can have belief in a deity despite their level of education, then conspiracies can also thrive. It is part of our makeup and will take a lot more evolution to change.

 

Sorry if that ran away a bit, I just wanted to defend all the hard work our young put in. A few spoil it and mage the majority look bad.