US Senate Against Lootboxes and Pay2Win Micro-Transactions

[spartaman64]

9 minutes ago, ThePD said:

I guess every game should be free since there are devs that charge 60 dollars for a game. Wouldn't want the children paying 60 dollars for a game. That would be a disaster!

i want to clarify that im fine with direct buy microtransactions but not fine with lootboxes as they are clearly gambling

[Nowak]

13 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

 

Oh no, a completely option luxury includes completely optional purchases!

 

How can we let this happen to people?!

 

 

Personal responsibility. That's how.

What I mean is, your argument about this being "economic oppression" is completely ridiculous. Economic oppression is going bankrupt over a hospital bill or being $100k in debt because you went to college, not because you can't make a purchase in a video game, something that belongs to something that is already a multi-billion dollar industry, which it got to being without the need for microtransactions, "games as a service" bullshit or lootboxes.

[Drak3]

2 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

then is mandating that casinos not accept child customers a government overreach

Yes. It is, again, the parent's responsibility.

 

9 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

legal drinking age

This one is more nuanced, but to an extent, yes.

[Drak3]

3 minutes ago, Nowak said:

Economic oppression is going bankrupt over a hospital bill or being $100k in debt because you went to college,

That's consequence, not oppression.

 

3 minutes ago, Nowak said:

not because you can't make a purchase in a video game

Telling me that I cannot make a benign decision that affects only me is oppression.

[Sky Spark]

5 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Yes. It is, again, the parent's responsibility.

 

This one is more nuanced, but to an extent, yes.

There's a legal drinking age for a reason. And an age for letting people into a casino.

[Nowak]

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

Telling me that I cannot make a benign decision that affects only me is oppression.

Okay, Mr. Most-Important-Man-In-The-World.

[Thaldor]

39 minutes ago, Sorenson said:

How much have you spent on loot boxes? I mean is this really an epidemic? In the past 5 years i've spent probably 40$ on hearthstone cards. Are we going to ban those loot boxes? Can children no longer buy trading card packs because its "gambling"? 

 

This is an issue of liberty. You say the government needs to pass a law that says game developers can't have loot boxes in their games. Well then what happens to games like Xenoblade 2 were a random chance loot is at the core of gameplay. I agree loot boxes are annoying, but getting rid of them won't solve anything. Developers will just find another way of monetizing their games. 

0€, because I don't even play games that have lootboxes in them because mostly they are not interesting for me. Funny thing you choose the word "epidemic" because look at Epic Games, they were doing quite fine before Fortnite, but that's a shit load of money out of F2P game with only monetization being lootboxes and that money must come from somewhere.

 

Trading cards have always been in the grey area. Mostly they get away with it because they are collectibles with little to nothing value while in sale and the real value is in those that are close to impossible to get. They also get away because they don't really do excessive marketing and ad campaings and their profitability is very low and usually when they boom that boom lasts such a short time that no one has time to react to it (Pokemon TCG boom lasted around 6-12 months initially, lootboxes in successful games have already existed (out of my ass) 3-4 years from which games that solely monetize through them have lasted around a year or two). And even when IRL collectibles boom they are nowhere close to the scale of games booming (20 years ago Pokemon TCG was a huge thing, but nothing when compared to Pokemon GO boom which now looks quite small when compared to Fortnite).

 

I don't say that the government should pass a law to ban lootboxes, I actually flail my flag for that governments should spread gambling laws to include games using gambling monetization (like premium currencies and lootboxes). If game developers want to use lootboxes, go ahead, but they need to register as casinos, pay those extra taxes and follow the regulations. There's literally thousands of ways to monetize games without jumping into the world of gambling, lootboxes and p2w microtransactions just are todays magic bullets to make any shit gold in moments and those are really simple magic bullets. Gaming world has done quite well without them nearly 60 years and today making games is actually cheaper than ever (only softwares for a 3D game based on Unreal Engine costed anywhere from $4k to $10k per developer + $300k to $1M for the engine, today you can get by for 5% royalties for the engine after $10k profits, that's a quite a big leap in costs), and suddenly "game develoeprs will go bankrupt if they can't have their lootboxes and microtransactions", like what the fuck did game developers do before internet and even the basic needs for lootboxes and microtransactions? Develope actual games that people wanted to buy and own and make them so that they didn't need 10k patches before being playable? That's fucking crazy, that would mean that the developers would actually need to work for 8 years instead of sitting on their thumbs for over 6 years and shit out something in less than 24 months (sarcasm).

[Nowak]

It's so funny how this became such a touchy subject once it came to America.

[Sky Spark]

7 minutes ago, Nowak said:

It's so funny how this became such a touchy subject once it came to America.

Americans are something else. Yet everywhere else this happened people were like "not an issue to me lol"

[Tristerin]

TESTIMONY:

 

Archeage released - FULLY P2W game.  Bought a copy for myself and my wife.  Everyone in our guild bought it and we started on early access.  The Chinese farmers began and so did the Games P2W features.

 

30 days later, I had spent over $3,000 between buying currency from Chinese farmers (don't care if you judge me) and purchasing P2W items in the store.  My guild owned nearly half of the largest town in the game, Marianople.  What that meant when I saw my bank statement:

 

I deleted both accounts and realized I had zero way of keeping myself from doing this unless I stopped.

 

Havent touched the game since. 

 

Its called personal accountability.

 

I made a stupid mistake (in the long run it was stupid, short term I had a FUCKING blast for 30 days).

 

Everyone makes choices.  Everyone has to pay for the results of their choices.

 

In this aspect you want to take the Tax dollars Im already forced at gunpoint and threat of being thrown in a box if I don't pay (jail) to be used to put a BLOCK in place for you people who are weak willed or unwilling to be a parent.

 

My 2 copper coins.

[DeScruff]

On 5/8/2019 at 5:04 PM, Eaglerino said:

I see no reason to introduce even more regulation. Vote with your wallet, leave the government out. If parent's can't keep watch of their kids that shouldn't be everyone else's problem

If voting with your wallet did anything we wouldn't have free to play games... Cause you know the majority of players don't pay and the games are funded mostly by a few that the industry litterally calls "Whales"

[Trik'Stari]

On 5/9/2019 at 2:33 PM, Drak3 said:

Okay. You still have that option.

 

You're responsible for you. I'm not responsoble for you, and vice versa.

You are, however, responsible for encouraging a specific business practice that arguably negatively impacts others.

 

Not to mention, that business practice being one that is a kind of activity normally regulated and age restricted. Not to mention it being a business practice that takes advantage of people who have a known and recognized mental disorder (gambling addiction).

9 minutes ago, Sypran said:

If voting with your wallet did anything we wouldn't have free to play games... Cause you know the majority of players don't pay and the games are funded mostly by a few that the industry litterally calls "Whales"

Those that do not pay, still count, because they might be friends with a whale and might convince said whale to join the game. The more people your game attracts, the greater chance you have of getting a whale.

 

 

Microtransactions and loot boxes need to die. The industry needs a major crash to correct the course it is on. Not to mention unionization of developers and a complete overhaul of the developer-producer relationship.

 

And I'm a fiscal conservative that doesn't like unions because of their potential to be abused or corrupted.

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, Trik'Stari said:

arguably negatively impacts others.

Only if they make the personal decision to take part themselves.

 

Again, I'm not responsible for the decisions others make. People should stop using the bad decisions of a few to punish the many who have not made such decisions.

[Nowak]

4 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

Microtransactions and loot boxes need to die. The industry needs a major crash to correct the course it is on.

All I'm saying is, let the AAA video game scene crash, so that indies may rise from their ashes and take back video games from the poisons that are corporate greed and profiteering. Let the corporations drown under the weight of their own unsustainable profits.

[Trik'Stari]

4 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Only if they make the personal decision to take part themselves.

 

Again, I'm not responsible for the decisions others make. People should stop using the bad decisions of a few to punish the many who have not made such decisions.

Your spending decisions influence what the companies make in the future, thus, negatively impacting others who don't want to play those kinds of games.

 

The cancellation of a single player Star Wars RPG is a fine example. That game would have made millions upon millions, but nope, not good enough for them, because there are people out there who do not think about what they buy and how that effects the market, that gaming companies can take advantage of.

 

No one is trying to punish you, just trying to get you to realize that what you buy has an effect on others, whether you like it or not.

 

2 minutes ago, Nowak said:

All I'm saying is, let the AAA video game scene crash, so that indies may rise from their ashes and take back video games from the poisons that are corporate greed and profiteering. Let the corporations drown under the weight of their own unsustainable profits.

I absolutely agree.

 

Periods of boom and bust are natural and actually a necessity in a "free market economy". It's long past time for the video games industry to go bust, and for the likes of EA, Ubisoft, and Activision, to go under. The only sadness to be had from this is the little people losing their jobs, and the fact that these companies will never give up their IP's, with which so many amazing things could be done, if only someone sane was at the helm.

[Drak3]

2 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

negatively impacting others who don't want to play those kinds of games.

That might mean something, if it weren't for the fact that people that don't want to play these types of games still have a wide array of options that don't have lootboxes.

 

3 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

The cancellation of a single player Star Wars RPG is a fine example.

Games get canceled constantly. Saying 'Game X' got canceled because it doesn't have the same ROI as 'Game Y' is not a super solid argument, as we're not in a vacuum where Games X and Y are the only options, nor is the market as a whole following that trend.

[Nowak]

4 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

I absolutely agree.

 

Periods of boom and bust are natural and actually a necessity in a "free market economy". It's long past time for the video games industry to go bust, and for the likes of EA, Ubisoft, and Activision, to go under. The only sadness to be had from this is the little people losing their jobs, and the fact that these companies will never give up their IP's, with which so many amazing things could be done, if only someone sane was at the helm.

tbh it's not even a matter of "if" it'll happen anymore, it's a matter of "when" it'll happen.

 

I've been called "crazy" before by suggesting that the industry was headed towards another crash but then there are stories of how the industry has zero job security and executives get millions of dollars in bonuses and companies boast about record profits before laying off nearly a thousand people, and I'm just... you'd have to be blind to not see where things are going now.

 

Eventually this endless profit chasing is gonna reach the boiling point. Bills like what the senator is proposing won't even be necessary anymore after that happens.

[Trik'Stari]

11 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

That might mean something, if it weren't for the fact that people that don't want to play these types of games still have a wide array of options that don't have lootboxes.

 

Games get canceled constantly. Saying 'Game X' got canceled because it doesn't have the same ROI as 'Game Y' is not a super solid argument, as we're not in a vacuum where Games X and Y are the only options, nor is the market as a whole following that trend.

Except for the part where the woman developing it went online and said it was cancelled because a board member turned to her and said "FIFA makes a billion dollars a year, where is your version of that?" and then the game got cancelled.

 

So yeah. Your actions encourage these types of games, and production companies have ZERO interest in anything that does not make "all of the money, all of the time".

 

So it's actually quite a good example, because it literally got cancelled for not being a microtransaction laden, poorly developed, completely egregious piece of shit that the industry is pushing for.

 

We also have Anthem, that was one part mismanagement and one part lack of support from the production company because "FIFA gets all the toys, you get none". Then we have Fallout 76. Which has become infamous enough to be an Internet Historian video.

These games are demonstrably anti-consumer and harmful to the industry. Playing them, or even worse, preordering them or buying microtransactions, absolutely encourages them.

7 minutes ago, Nowak said:

tbh it's not even a matter of "if" it'll happen anymore, it's a matter of "when" it'll happen.

 

I've been called "crazy" before by suggesting that the industry was headed towards another crash but then there are stories of how the industry has zero job security and executives get millions of dollars in bonuses and companies boast about record profits before laying off nearly a thousand people, and I'm just... you'd have to be blind to not see where things are going now.

 

Eventually this endless profit chasing is gonna reach the boiling point. Bills like what the senator is proposing won't even be necessary anymore after that happens.

I'd rather see a labor shortage as a result of people quitting and refusing to work for these companies any more. I'd like to see their bad behavior get so well known that no one even bothers applying for them, and just makes their games on their own, maybe teaming up with social networking or something.

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, Trik'Stari said:

-Snip-

Then act upon your right as a consumer and don't buy it.

 

And let me act upon my right as a consumer to buy it.

 

Because, again, the only people affected are those partaking not only in the luxury of gaming, but also of the handful of games that have these lootboxes. No one is forced into playing these games, no one is forced into playing games to begin with. It is purely a personal choice to be affected by this, so take some personal responsibility.

[AntiTrust]

I am completely against loot boxes and think it is simple gambling aimed at children. I also think that loot boxes ruin games. Just let me buy the skins or items I want, I don't have the money , patience or time to sit there opening crates until I get the thing I actually wanted. . 

[Delicieuxz]

For whoever wants this bill to go through, I recommend contacting your representative however that's done in the US, and asking them to support the bill, and if you're able to, also explaining how these practices are predatory and negatively impacting.

[Sky Spark]

17 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

We also have Anthem, that was one part mismanagement and one part lack of support from the production company because "FIFA gets all the toys, you get none". Then we have Fallout 76. Which has become infamous enough to be an Internet Historian video.

Don't forget Bethesda's other egregious endeavor, Elder Scrolls Blades, which they said was a "pure Elder Scrolls experience". Yeah, Oblivion and Skyrim made you wait 3 days to open chests, and you can't start the timer for one box until you open one before it. Timers for everything. 

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Edited May 10, 2019 by SansVarnic
Removed content.

[AntiTrust]

1 minute ago, Delicieuxz said:

For whoever wants this bill to go through, I recommend contacting your representative however that's done in the US, and asking them to support the bill, and if you're able to, also explaining how these practices are predatory and negatively impacting.

Agreed, especially because your local rep might not understand how many people care about this issue or how bad it is or even what it is. 

[Nowak]

10 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

I'd rather see a labor shortage as a result of people quitting and refusing to work for these companies any more. I'd like to see their bad behavior get so well known that no one even bothers applying for them, and just makes their games on their own, maybe teaming up with social networking or something.

Oh yeah, absolutely. Labor strikes and shortages must absolutely happen. That can really hurt the industry in a way they can tangibly feel.

[Trik'Stari]

17 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Then act upon your right as a consumer and don't buy it.

 

And let me act upon my right as a consumer to buy it.

 

Because, again, the only people affected are those partaking not only in the luxury of gaming, but also of the handful of games that have these lootboxes. No one is forced into playing these games, no one is forced into playing games to begin with. It is purely a personal choice to be affected by this, so take some personal responsibility.

We are asking you to take personal responsibility for your purchases, because your purchases affect what the industry makes and leans towards. I'm not sure how to make that much clearer.

 

The problem being, that people such as yourself (and I'm saying this only because you are arguing in opposition to me, I don't know you and don't know what you play, but you seem to be against what I am arguing for) don't accept responsibility for their purchases and refuse to see how that influences the market.

 

You might not buy the loot boxes and you might not purchase microtransactions, but you, at the very least, make the game more popular, and whales are more likely to play a popular game than one that is less popular.

 

WE are negatively affected because the industry is focusing more on games that WE do NOT like, and cancelling or failing to make games that we would like, as a result of the (undeserved) popularity of the games people like yourself, are purchasing or playing.