Microsoft might move jobs abroad due to US immigration policies

[Levisallanon]

With the ever changing US immigration laws it's getting harder and harder for tech companies to hire the skilled workers they want from abroad. It seems microsoft is now planning on moving some of it's operations abroad if these problems persist. If the administrations is going to make the rules even more strict it could mean that a lot of employees won't be able to work at microsoft anymore:

More changes to that program would mean there would be “hundreds of [Microsoft] employees who would lose their ability to work in the United States,” Smith said. 

But altough we sometimes want to believe microsoft is a very evil company they do actually value their employees and said:

Instead of simply abandoning those employees and replacing them, Smith said Microsoft would work to move them overseas to countries where they can continue working for the company.

It's good to see companies valuing their employees and looking for solutions. Personally I wonder if these kind of concerns are related to more and more tech companies having branches in Europe or moving research facilies to europe like google recently announcing they would open a Machine Learning center in Amsterdam.

What do you guys think about this? Should microsoft do this or should they do what the US want and drop these foreign people and only hire american people?

 

Sources:

https://multiculturalmeanderings.com/2018/07/14/microsoft-might-move-jobs-abroad-due-to-us-immigration-policies/

https://www.fastcompany.com/90201246/microsoft-might-move-jobs-abroad-due-to-u-s-immigration-policies

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, Levisallanon said:

 

What do you guys think about this? Should microsoft do this or should they do what the US want and drop these foreign people and only hire american people?

 

 

I think the world needs to wake up and realise we aren't a bunch of independent islands anymore, you sneeze in the US and Europe gets a cold, fart in Australia and china complains about the smell.   Immigration is only the symptom, the problem is we all have to live on an ever shrinking planet.  

[Tartandy]

I think if America tries to restrict immigration so significantly, this is the inevitable end result. In my eyes all it's doing is cordoning off the country for the international market. Global companies have global staff, there's no way around that.

[MyName13]

Good for poorer countries I guess.

[chiller15]

This isn't the first time that something like this has happened. Didn't Google recall employees when Trump placed travel bans on some Muslim countries?

[Levisallanon]

40 minutes ago, MyName13 said:

Good for poorer countries I guess.

poorer then the US?
I guess a lot of those foreigners actually come from wealthier countries and don't mind microsoft coming to them.

[HarryNyquist]

3 minutes ago, Levisallanon said:

I guess a lot of those foreigners actually come from wealthier countries and don't mind microsoft coming to them.

HAH.

[Drak3]

1 hour ago, Levisallanon said:

Should microsoft do this

Microsoft should have been doing this all along.

[MyName13]

33 minutes ago, Levisallanon said:

poorer then the US?
I guess a lot of those foreigners actually come from wealthier countries and don't mind microsoft coming to them.

Yes?I thought that Indians represent the majority of imported IT workers.

[Levisallanon]

3 minutes ago, MyName13 said:

Yes?I thought that Indians represent the majority of imported IT workers.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/diversity/inside-microsoft/default.aspx

[Doobeedoo]

Cool come to Europe. 

[Christophe Corazza]

The U.S. is trying to solve this problem in reverse. Instead of fixing the educational system first so you have qualified workers available. Instead the administration thinks that blocking qualified workers from coming in the country will fix the problem. This idea in itself shows you that the U.S. educational system is broken since they can't find politicians with the necessary education to figure this out.

[ChineseChef]

12 minutes ago, Christophe Corazza said:

The U.S. is trying to solve this problem in reverse. Instead of fixing the educational system first so you have qualified workers available. Instead the administration thinks that blocking qualified workers from coming in the country will fix the problem. This idea in itself shows you that the U.S. educational system is broken since they can't find politicians with the necessary education to figure this out.

While I agree the education system in the US needs some major fixing, the lack of skilled workers within the US is not the issue.  The issue is the companies don't want to pay higher wages, and at the moment they don't have to.  They can bring in a bunch of H1-B visa workers, pay them way less, and make them work in unacceptable conditions by just threatening to send them home if they complain.  This brings down everyone else's wages, same as what happened to the construction industry.  They use cheap foreign labor to lower average wages, then the cycle keeps happening and keeps wages down and conditions poor.  These companies are making record profits every year, yet somehow can't afford to pay people enough?  Its just our insane shareholder greed, demanding ever increasing profits beyond the point of sustainability.

[Taf the Ghost]

*Cough* *cough* Utter Bull****.

 

Tech companies abuse the programs to lock in workers at far lower than market rates, then they complain when the damage they've done to the country & economy gets called out. Anyone defending the practices either doesn't understand how vile they are or, if you do understand it & defend it, the Trump/Pence 2020 campaign really appreciates your contribution. 

 

You have companies located in America, using American resources, infrastructure & wealth, then they prevent Americans from being able to even compete for the jobs because they're paying far under the clearing wage for an American to actually take the job. Not that they haven't already lied about everything so they don't even look at an American's resume.

[S w a t s o n]

5 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Anyone defending the practices either doesn't understand how vile they are or, if you do understand it & defend it, the Trump/Pence 2020 campaign really appreciates your contribution. 

Wait, isn't Microsoft doing this because of the Trump administration policies?

[Taf the Ghost]

21 minutes ago, Christophe Corazza said:

The U.S. is trying to solve this problem in reverse. Instead of fixing the educational system first so you have qualified workers available. Instead the administration thinks that blocking qualified workers from coming in the country will fix the problem. This idea in itself shows you that the U.S. educational system is broken since they can't find politicians with the necessary education to figure this out.

It's consistent, illegal discrimination about Country of Origin that's the issue. That the Country of Origin just happens to be the USA for countries located in the USA just makes it the oddity. Then there's the issue of Indian Tribalism/Racism that can't be ignored on this issue, in the Tech Industry. 

 

Also, fixing the American Education system would require removing it from State control. The State *is* the problem. The System works perfectly, you're just foolish in assuming the point is to educate.

[laminutederire]

1 hour ago, MyName13 said:

Yes?I thought that Indians represent the majority of imported IT workers.

There are a lot of high skilled workers from China as well and Europe has produced the majority of the best workers for a while now. Most AI research departments of American companies are led by French people for instance.

 

That's the US burying themselves deeper into troubles. China has been opening itself to the world for cooperations when the US closes itself, which can only mean bad things for the US.

[Taf the Ghost]

3 minutes ago, Swatson said:

Wait, isn't Microsoft doing this because of the Trump administration policies?

The Trump Administration is removing a de facto Indentured Servant program the Tech Companies use to keep costs a little lower (on net, they don't actually, because Tech is always "you get what you pay for"). Silicon Valley + Redmond have used H1B and other programs to drive wages down for Americans, while illegally discriminating against Americans, in their own country, so they can keep their employees under their thumb & "cheaper". 

 

Microsoft is just trying to spin that they can no longer lie on the forms saying they need # number of workers to fill a job because they can pay them a 30% less & keep complete control of the employee, rather than hiring in the open market to get a more capable American. They got caught being evil, and are trying to spin it as the Administration is trying to keep people down. Enforcing the rules is all the Administration is doing. MS (and Google, Yahoo & SV et all) are angry because they're losing control of their workers. For them, it's not really about the money. Power, Control & Collusion. 

[S w a t s o n]

18 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

snip

 

13 minutes ago, Swatson said:

Wait, isn't Microsoft doing this because of the Trump administration policies?

I do agree the solution should be to hire domestically rather than move the jobs, but I'm just pointing out that I don't think those people would want to donate to Trump, lol

[Taf the Ghost]

2 minutes ago, Swatson said:

 

I do agree the solution should be to hire domestically rather than move the jobs, but I'm just pointing out that I don't think they would want to do that, lol

They will and they're just putting PR spin. They'll low-ball the people they're going to lose at whatever location they'd be sending them to. Thus, they'll return home and take up with a local company. This really hasn't ever been all that much of an economics issue. It's the "idiots with MBA" issue. They lack the mental ability to see beyond the next quarter, so they can't understand the Opportunity Costs involved.

 

MBA programs are several levels of incompetent & evil.

4 minutes ago, laminutederire said:

There are a lot of high skilled workers from China as well and Europe has produced the majority of the best workers for a while now. Most AI research departments of American companies are led by French people for instance.

 

That's the US burying themselves deeper into troubles. China has been opening itself to the world for cooperations when the US closes itself, which can only mean bad things for the US.

There's a lot of highly skilled Americans, skipping over subject matter expert issues, but how do you develop your industries when you drive out the skilled Americans for the less skilled (but "cheaper) non-Americans that'll be leaving in a few years anyway? Don't defend the exploitation of people for the advantage of executive bonuses.

[Stefan Payne]

 

4 hours ago, Levisallanon said:

With the ever changing US immigration laws it's getting harder and harder for tech companies to hire the skilled workers they want from abroad.

Why the hell do they need skilled workers from abroad?!
Why can't they make the skilled workers inside the Countrys? And what "ever changing US Immigration Laws" are they talking about?! 

The H1B Slave Visas are still there and I've not yet heard of anything in that regard.

 

Or do they mean illegal aliens?!

What the hell are they talking about??

4 hours ago, Levisallanon said:

It seems microsoft is now planning on moving some of it's operations abroad if these problems persist.

What Problems? What they talking about?!

And why do they need to "brain-drain" other Countrys??

High Skilled Immigration is only beneficial for the Country those People immigrate to but if it is possible for them to work in their home country and do some good there, that's something that is missed when talking about immigration. 

Its a two edged sword...

And there is no clear solution, that's why we need discussions and freedom of speech. to talk that shit out and come to a conclusion...

4 hours ago, Levisallanon said:

If the administrations is going to make the rules even more strict it could mean that a lot of employees won't be able to work at microsoft anymore:

What did the Administration do??
They cracked down on illegal aliens, not on legal ones. 

So what is this shit about?! 

I don't understand the words written here, what you or whatever source you used is trying to say. It seems like its an outright lie that was propagated here...

 

4 hours ago, Levisallanon said:

But altough we sometimes want to believe microsoft is a very evil company

Microsoft under Bill Gates wasn't evil, Ballmer seemed to be a good guy too, according to "some Insider". Watch "Barnacley's nerdgasm Interview" on Eli the Computer Guy's Channel. He talked a lot about that.

Microsoft under the new Leadership is evil.

 

And if M$ needs immigrants, why the hell did they fire thousands of Employees a couple of years ago?!

Seems like they don't need competent personal, seems like they want to lower the wages of the competent personal they have left.

They fired entire departments in that time, like the entire Software Testing department was let go according to the Interview mentioned above. 

So that seems a bit schizophrenic to me...
On one hand they let go thousands of employees and now they are whining that they don't have them and need more?! Yes, of course...

 

See that is the Problem you guys don't want to see and how Immigration can be (or rather will be) misused by the biggest companys as a preassure for the native population.
If you want too much money, you'd be replaced with an H1B Visa guy who does the same work for 1/2 or 1/3 of what they are paying you.

 

4 hours ago, Levisallanon said:

What do you guys think about this? Should microsoft do this or should they do what the US want and drop these foreign people and only hire american people?

I think its bullshit propaganda from some dubious websites, who are either incompetent or evill or both.

 

If you know about the big layoffs of Microsoft of the last like 5 Years where many thousands of employees were let go, you know this can only be bullshit.

And M$ already has offices around the World.

They have in Germany allone 8 Offices!

 

 

Back to the facts:

Quote

 

In July 2014, Microsoft announced plans to lay off 18,000 employees. Microsoft employed 127,104 people as of June 5, 2014, making this about a 14 percent reduction of its workforce as the biggest Microsoft lay off ever. This included 12,500 professional and factory personnel. Previously, Microsoft has laid off 5,800 jobs in 2009 in line with US financial crisis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft

 

And that was just one phase, another ~8k were let go in 2015 and another ~2k in 2016 - around 28k of the 127k employees...

 

4 hours ago, Levisallanon said:

Sources:

https://multiculturalmeanderings.com/2018/07/14/microsoft-might-move-jobs-abroad-due-to-us-immigration-policies/

https://www.fastcompany.com/90201246/microsoft-might-move-jobs-abroad-due-to-u-s-immigration-policies

Seems like dubious sources that want to twist the facts so that you believe that you should get rid of borders. Tim Pool had a video about that recently, don't know wich it was....

 

Anyway, don't believe it, check the facts, use your brain.

 

Its about preasuring the employees they have left to agree to a paycut, nothing more.

 

how long untill the next president? o_o

6 Years :P

[asus killer]

for this companies education above all it's the single most important factor. The US education system is not great. It's only natural that if they can't import they will move.

[laminutederire]

32 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

They will and they're just putting PR spin. They'll low-ball the people they're going to lose at whatever location they'd be sending them to. Thus, they'll return home and take up with a local company. This really hasn't ever been all that much of an economics issue. It's the "idiots with MBA" issue. They lack the mental ability to see beyond the next quarter, so they can't understand the Opportunity Costs involved.

 

MBA programs are several levels of incompetent & evil.

There's a lot of highly skilled Americans, skipping over subject matter expert issues, but how do you develop your industries when you drive out the skilled Americans for the less skilled (but "cheaper) non-Americans that'll be leaving in a few years anyway? Don't defend the exploitation of people for the advantage of executive bonuses.

Sure but there aren't enough of them I'd say otherwise they wouldn't hire people from abroad. Since when have I defended that idea? The way I look at it, highly skilled people from outside the US need to come in the US if American companies only in the US can survive. That's very presumptuous of you to assume that Americans are better than non-Americans, and that's where you'll fool yourself. In some subjects the best are from outside, and there are arguably a lot of them by the way.

China has understood that and they began working with Japan and Europe for the time being on focusing a common research against American research with a lot of funding. That's because they understood that keeping amongst themselves, like Americans seem to want to do, is a clearly bad idea.

And this has nothing to do with defending shareholders or whatever.

[SADS]

I'm not massively up on my politics, but I find it funny how the news appears to be that to 'make America great again' tarifs have been put in place on imports to encourage American made goods.

However, it wasn't anticipated that there would be retaliatory tarifs and now the big American brands are just sending work offshore now.

 

Harley Davidson, springs to mind, they're like the most recognisable American brand you can think of and they're now going to move construction offshore because of the tarifs!

[Taf the Ghost]

3 minutes ago, laminutederire said:

Sure but there aren't enough of them I'd say otherwise they wouldn't hire people from abroad. Since when have I defended that idea? The way I look at it, highly skilled people from outside the US need to come in the US if American companies only in the US can survive. That's very presumptuous of you to assume that Americans are better than non-Americans, and that's where you'll fool yourself. In some subjects the best are from outside, and there are arguably a lot of them by the way.

China has understood that and they began working with Japan and Europe for the time being on focusing a common research against American research with a lot of funding. That's because they understood that keeping amongst themselves, like Americans seem to want to do, is a clearly bad idea.

And this has nothing to do with defending shareholders or whatever.

The practice has nothing to do with availability of American workers more than capable of performing the in the role. Companies abuse the Visa system to bring in workers to drive down wages & keep them under control. With few exceptions, there really aren't Subject Matter Experts that need to be brought in. That's the Big Lie tech companies have been pushing. They don't need all but maybe 20 people a year via these Visa programs. (Universities have more use for the rare talents that most businesses.)

 

That's what the changes are about. They were always supposed to provide "proof" that they couldn't meet the roles with Americans. They lied the entire time, and setup ways to allow them to hire 10s of 1000s this way. Those were American Jobs that Americans can more than do, but were illegally prevented from being able to do. How does American tech improve when it's not even being done by Americans?

 

The related issue to this is also why American Oil, Gas & Military tech are best in the world. You can still find work that'll pay you what you're worth in those fields, as an American. (Though the Chinese work really hard to steal all of the tech they can. There's a reason why.)