BMW Offices in Munich Raided by Authorities in search of Diesel Emissions Cheating

[FloRolf]

10 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

Which part?

All of it. 

 

Diesel produces less Co2 and less fine particles than gas. The only difference is the increased Nox that diesel engines produce, which can be filtered out however. 

Furthermore not a single person died after being driven by by a diesel car. 

You can't really make out a number for that and pin the cause all on the diesel. 

 

Honestly is diesel the superior fuel if done correctly and if you don't want to drive a sportscar

 

[AlTech]

37 minutes ago, Cole5 said:

Why? Like why is it so hard to not cheat? The money it woulda cost em to make a cleaner would be nothign to if they get these fines

The fines are still tiny relative to the amount of money they make from car sales

 

Unless the fines are large enough to cause a huge impact to their bottom line, most probably won't stop.

 

A million USD is nothing to them. Let alone $1 Billion USD.

[AlTech]

4 minutes ago, FloRolf said:

All of it. 

 

Diesel produces less Co2 and less fine particles than gas. The only difference is the increased Nox that diesel engines produce, which can be filtered out however. 

Furthermore not a single person died after being driven by by a diesel car. 

Wasn't talking about being driven by a diesel car.

 

Was talking about pedestrians and people who don't drive.

4 minutes ago, FloRolf said:

Honestly is diesel the superior fuel if done correctly and if you don't want to drive a sportscar

Why not Biofuel?

 

Where I am in the UK, a fair few of the buses use Biofuel.

[AlTech]

I've Added a description and example of a defeat device in a car in the OP.

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, FloRolf said:

All of it. 

 

Diesel produces less Co2 and less fine particles than gas. The only difference is the increased Nox that diesel engines produce, which can be filtered out however. 

Furthermore not a single person died after being driven by by a diesel car. 

You can't really make out a number for that and pin the cause all on the diesel. 

 

Honestly is diesel the superior fuel if done correctly and if you don't want to drive a sportscar

 

Actually they have discovered that diesel particles in labs cause a change in lung cells that leads to cancer in rats and studies of people who work in heavy industry (train drivers and truck drivers) also show a higher rate of lung cancer that currently can be explained by any other metric.  My next door neighbor (train driver) died of lung cancer they said was a result of diesel particles (that's all they found in his lungs). 

[Taf the Ghost]

3 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

Why not Biofuel?

 

Where I am in the UK, a fair few of the buses use Biofuel.

Production levels, stability, most aren't "sustainable" at any commercial level, lower energy content per unit of volume, and most tend to actually have high emissions.

 

Mass Scale Commercial Production Vehicles running on liquid oil-based fuels isn't some conspiracy to create pollution. Those fuels are brilliant bits of refined Chemistry over 100 years. There is no easy place to switch that's cost effective, which is why no one has.

 

Electric still needs around 3-4 more generations before it's going to be mass scale viable, but it would really help if countries were rolling out next generation Nuclear power stations to feed demand.

[Cole5]

1 hour ago, Trik'Stari said:

Unless the standards are so strict that it's not possible to make a vehicle that can meet them, whilst being a vehicle that someone still wishes to drive.

Then dont sell to that market?

[Blademaster91]

27 minutes ago, FloRolf said:

Honestly is diesel the superior fuel if done correctly and if you don't want to drive a sportscar

Then whats the point of a high end luxury brand if it has a boring diesel engine?

1 hour ago, Tataffe said:

You say "on over 11,000" cars like that is a lot. It is not. BMW alone makes over 2,000,000 cars every year. Stop scandalising please.

And could you elaborate on what you mean with "should have been found on the next service"? The time that this problem has existed for is way shorter than the normal time between services.

It was more likely under some investigation for a bit longer,unless the govt. does random raids on billion dollar companies.  Over 2 million cars per year is even less reason to be defeating emissions,from what others are saying diesel NOx is more dangerous to humans than gas CO2. Even if only a small number out of the cars they sell per year it is still cheating, you're defending BMW yet they are doing the same thing as VW/Audi.

[Tataffe]

6 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

It was more likely under some investigation for a bit longer,unless the govt. does random raids on billion dollar companies.  Over 2 million cars per year is even less reason to be defeating emissions,from what others are saying diesel NOx is more dangerous to humans than gas CO2. Even if only a small number out of the cars they sell per year it is still cheating, you're defending BMW yet they are doing the same thing as VW/Audi.

This is utter nonsense. Go read what I wrote before and all your questions will be answered.

[Blademaster91]

51 minutes ago, Tataffe said:

This is utter nonsense. Go read what I wrote before and all your questions will be answered.

The quad turbo engine in the 750d is post "dieselgate" and well the article you posted doesn't answer anything more than OP's Arstechnica source. With gas direct injection and variable high compression engines diesel just doesn't make sense in cars anymore, but these European automakers are so invested in diesel they can convince people of making a few changes and everyone assumes its still a clean design.

[Drak3]

1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

Then whats the point of a high end luxury brand if it has a boring diesel engine?

You've never driven a vehcle with a diesel engine, I take it.

[Guest The Viking]

Diesel originally was reserved to trucks, then  it became a fashion for cars to use it.

 

Per barrel of oil, you produce MORE gasoline than diesel. I can't find the info in litres but here you can see it in gallons https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=327&t=9 So basically 20 gallons of gasoline for about 10 gallons of diesel. During a specific period of time, at least in Europe, many years ago, diesel was the preferred type of car, and we got to a point were too much gasoline was being produced and not enough was being bought, as more people wanted diesel. 

 

In Brussels, by 2025, only Euro 6 diesel cars will be allowed to drive (apart from gasoline). Euro 6 is currently the strongest norm. Euro 3 will be allowed until 2019 for diesel, Euro 4 until 2020 and Euro 5 until 2022. Euro 3 gasoline carswill be allowed to drive without any issues though, so you are better off buying Euro 3+ gasoline cars or Euro 6 diesel cars from now on.

 

The issue with diesel is the amount of small particles it produces, that are hard and costly to stop/retain in a filter, and that are extremely dangerous to breath. There is a reason why they are pushing such strong regulation agaisnt diesel and being less restrictive with gasoline. In any case, diesel should have never been used for cars. And before you tell me, "Ohhh you have never driven a car using diesel" yes, i have, I used to own a diesel Audi. Sure, you can get a bit further with diesel, but that's not enough of an excuse.

[Coaxialgamer]

6 hours ago, straight_stewie said:

Modern diesels are far and away cleaner than gasoline engines can ever be, per unit of fuel consumed. And since diesel engines generate much more power per unit of fuel, diesel engines, by extension pollute less per unit of fuel burned.

However, some diesel engines are very, very large.

 

6 hours ago, sazrocks said:

I was with you until here. Why the heck should this be done? Aren't modern diesel vehicles cleaner than equivalent gas vehicles, and get better fuel economy? Or am I misinformed? 

And what fuel would you suggest high-load vehicles such as tractor trailers use?

Not quite. Diesel engines require less fuel than  equivalent gasoline engines. Total CO2 is thus lower as a result. 

 

However, diesel engines release harmful airborne pollutants, which isn't nearly as much of a problem for gas, such as fine particles and other harmful nitrogen compounds 

[Coaxialgamer]

3 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

 

Why not Biofuel?

 

Where I am in the UK, a fair few of the buses use Biofuel.

Biofuels aren't sustainable really. We're already having issues feeding half the world's population, which is why it's jot that great of a solution tbh

[Tataffe]

3 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

[excluded for peace of mind of other readers]

The level of detail provided by me and my sources obviously overburdens you. I don't see the point of the meaningless accusations you throw around here, without any sources to absolutely noone's surprise.

[Blademaster91]

3 hours ago, Drak3 said:

You've never driven a vehcle with a diesel engine, I take it.

Diesel cars are a bit rare in North America,either few dealers have them or you have to actually look for one. Could have something to do with EPA regulations also? But myself no, other than a diesel truck which wasn't fast of course but it felt quicker than it should have been.

39 minutes ago, Tataffe said:

The level of detail provided by me and my sources obviously overburdens you. I don't see the point of the meaningless accusations you throw around here, without any sources to absolutely noone's surprise.

Your seemingly smug denigration aside,you're simply upset and would rather blindly defend BMW here. If you want to prove anything point it out with a source that everyone can read without Google translate making a mess out of it. The details don't matter when the govt. is cracking down for lying about emissions whether or not the engine is still being made. These German automakers had the chance to make clean gas engines instead though it's cheaper for billion dollar car companies to take the hit with fines while consumers are stuck with vehicles that will depreciate in value even more.

[straight_stewie]

8 hours ago, sazrocks said:

Do you have a link to a source for that?

I don't need a link, I've been a diesel mechanic for nearly 15 years now: I'm well aware of the advantages and disadvantages of diesel engines, as well as the applicable emissions laws for both on and offroad diesel engines, in the US. You can believe whatever you want to believe.

 

 

1 hour ago, Coaxialgamer said:

Not quite. Diesel engines require less fuel than  equivalent gasoline engines. Total CO2 is thus lower as a result. 

 

However, diesel engines release harmful airborne pollutants, which isn't nearly as much of a problem for gas, such as fine particles and other harmful nitrogen compounds 

I said as much when I said that a diesel engine generates more power per unit of fuel then gas, and then went on to say that that extends to generally lower emissions. Of course that is only true for engines of equivalent size, which is why I said that the problem comes in when you realize that most diesel engines are much, much larger than common gasoline engines. 

In modern diesel engines we can filter out enough of the NOx that even relatively large diesel engines (such as small big trucks and big small trucks) produce less than the large gas engines in trucks and sports/muscle cars.

[sazrocks]

6 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

I don't need a link, I've been a diesel mechanic for nearly 15 years now: I'm well aware of the advantages and disadvantages of diesel engines, as well as the applicable emissions laws for both on and offroad diesel engines, in the US. You can believe whatever you want to believe.

What the heck man? How the heck did you expect me to know that? Is it really that unreasonable for me to ask a stranger on the internet for a source to back up their claims, or should I just assume that everyone one is a 15 year expert in what they are talking about?

[Misanthrope]

8 hours ago, TheSLSAMG said:

 

It was in this movie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollerball_(1975_film)

Ok now call me crazy but given the really attractive architecture, the eco-drama, the police raid, etc. I think this would make a fantastic videogame: BWM raid and BMW Raid 2: Raid Reloaded

[straight_stewie]

11 minutes ago, sazrocks said:

What the heck man? How the heck did you expect me to know that? Is it really that unreasonable for me to ask a stranger on the internet for a source to back up their claims, or should I just assume that everyone one is a 15 year expert in what they are talking about?

I didn't mean to come off as a jerk. I literally just woke up and my jerkass filter hasn't been started yet. If I came off that way I'm sorry. I just didn't know a better way at the time to say "I've never though about finding a single link which contains all the pertinent information about diesel emissions in the US, as I came across that knowledge organically through a number of years".

Again, sorry if I came off that way.

This seems to be a good resource for diesel engine emission standards in the United States: https://dieselnet.com/standards/us/index.php
Which can be compared to the gasoline standards here: https://www.epa.gov/gasoline-standards

[Mihle]

2 hours ago, Coaxialgamer said:

Biofuels aren't sustainable really. We're already having issues feeding half the world's population, which is why it's jot that great of a solution tbh

The biofuel the busess in my country runs on I think comes from the food people throw away. And there is enough food trown away to support more than the busses are using, but not everything. I think.

[Drak3]

6 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

Why not Biofuel?

Every diesel engine can be converted to run biofuel, namely, biodiesel. It's actually one of the most trivial conversions for diesel engines.

 

4 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

With gas direct injection and variable high compression engines diesel just doesn't make sense in cars anymore, but these European automakers are so invested in diesel they can convince people of making a few changes and everyone assumes its still a clean design.

Fuel mileage on diesel counterparts is better than gasoline engines, and way ass better than American gas cpunterparts that rock EPA fuel mileage killers.

 

And that is just looking at stock. Most modern diesel engines can be tuned electronically to reclaim alot of potential mileage. Deleting a single component off of a Powerstroke computer's software increases mileage by roughly 2 gallons.

1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

Diesel cars are a bit rare in North America,either few dealers have them or you have to actually look for one. Could have something to do with EPA regulations also? But myself no, other than a diesel truck which wasn't fast of course but it felt quicker than it should have been.

Having a Ram with a 6.7 Cummins, and test driving a slew of Powerstrokes and a 5.7 Cummins, it's a far more fun truck to drive than my Dakota running a 5.7 Magnum, my father's Ram with a V10 Magnum, mom's 4 banger Santa Fe, or her V6 Altima. They're far from boring engines. Only thing that sucks is acceleration below 1100RPM, get past 1200, and it'll happily and quickily go to 3100, and that translates to vroom vroom and giddy up and go very well.

[NvidiaIntelAMDLoveTriangle]

7 hours ago, Cole5 said:

Why? Like why is it so hard to not cheat? The money it woulda cost em to make a cleaner would be nothign to if they get these fines

Because the restrictions that they have to follow are idiotic. No one can actually make a good performing car while meeting those restrictions. Thus everyone cheats. Yes, everyone cheats. And it's only a question of who gets caught doing it.

 

 

[Guest The Viking]

 

17 minutes ago, NvidiaIntelAMDLoveTriangle said:

Because the restrictions that they have to follow are idiotic. No one can actually make a good performing car while meeting those restrictions. Thus everyone cheats. Yes, everyone cheats. And it's only a question of who gets caught doing it.

 

 

oh boy, where do i even start to correct this statement without losing brain cells....

 

look. I'll lock you into a room, turn on a diesel  engine and see how you are after a few hours. Because, from your point of view, these rules are idiotic. Ok? you'll be fine anyway, as everybody cheats, right?

[Cookybiscuit]

The more of AluminiumTech's posts I read the more I'm convinced he knowingly expresses idiotic opinions just to start an argument.

56 minutes ago, The Viking said:

 

oh boy, where do i even start to correct this statement without losing brain cells....

 

look. I'll lock you into a room, turn on a diesel  engine and see how you are after a few hours. Because, from your point of view, these rules are idiotic. Ok? you'll be fine anyway, as everybody cheats, right?

Is gassing people a common usage scenario for a diesel engine? Or would you say engines are more commonly used to power cars which drive in the open air? Really, I don't think you'd be too happy being locked in a room with any diesel or petrol engine, doesn't matter if it was a brand new Euro 6 one or not.