Are loot boxes a form of unregulated gambling?

[ZestyJalapeno]

Does this belong to general discussion? Let's just say it does.

 

Today I came across a video from one of my fave YouTubers (check him out - all credit to this video goes to him)

 

 

Let's think of loot crates in an analogy; Kinder Eggs. Everyone knows what a kinder egg is, a milk chocolate egg with a toy in it, there is an element of mystery with trying to go for a different toy. Does this count as gambling? No. The purpose of a Kinder is to give you a sugary snack, a toy, and a way to smuggle stuff for those of you who watch too much Narcos. Anyway, when you buy a kinder egg you will always always get a toy and some choccy. It's advertised as such and therefore there is no inherent element of risk. Hence not gambling.

 

Now, what if Kinder then starts selling mandatory crates of Kinder Eggs that may contain actual kinder eggs and/or useless inedible rocks wrapped in foil with a totally random distribution of the two items in any given crate? There would be no way of getting Kinder Eggs other than through these crates and the chances of getting a full crate of Kinder Eggs and a full crate of stones are statistically equal. That by definition is gambling.

 

Let me introduce you to the loot crate, part of the sweeping, all-consuming cancer known as microtransactions that is currently pervading the gaming industry. The first time I've ever come across loot crates was in Mass Effect 3, published by...ahem...Electronic Arts. In the online mode, there would no guaranteed mercantile way of getting a certain weapon, upgrade or perk by purchase, the only way to get a certain rifle of a given power level was to buy a loot crate of the corresponding power level and hope to RNG you got one. It might take an hour, a week or even months worth of play to get it, one thing was for certain though, is that you would have to spend credits. Here comes the malicious part, these credits could either by grinded in game...or bought with real money through the online shop.

 

Therein lies the problem, if I could buy crates with real money ( I never did) and hope that by chance I would obtain an item...it's gambling. 100% through and through. A virtual slot machine with improved odds is still a slot machine.

 

Let's flash forward to 2017. AAAA titles like FIFA, COD, NBA2k etc etc are selling loot crates (packs or whatever name they go by) by the hundreds of millions worth of $$$, a lot of them to minors. Where are the gamblingaware warnings? Where are the outreach programs that teaches to young people and children about the dangers of risking away real money? The government would spring to action if I opened a child casino outside of a school where I would offer AND encourage risky, chance based purchases to pocket-money toting kids, but instead they're allowed to go online, spend money on any and all platforms from iOS to Steam on these fucking loot crates.

 

F2P games, sure, they need to make money through microtransactions and that's their whole business model, it's a whole another kettle of fish. None of those AAA titles are F2P, far from it. Anyway, this shouldn't be allowed to go on. The video creator above said he contacted gamblingaware UK about the problem and they haven't got back to him. 

[Sauron]

Quote

Are loot boxes a form of unregulated gambling?

Yes.

[BattleFrogue]

I'm glad someone brought this up, I was actually going to start a thread myself.

 

Loot boxes (or whatever disguise the developers hide them behind) have become a major issue that no one wants to seem to deal with. The fact that there isn't a governing body looking into this a seeing what effect it is having is actually disgusting. Especially when you have seen reports of things like children taking parents credit/debit cards to buy more FIFA packs or whatever it is, which is a huge indication of gambling addiction that there are children stealing money to fuel their loot crate opening.

 

Someone has created a petition in the UK to have the government look into it here and hopefully that will reach a point where the government actually has to respond and deal with the situation before it gets further out of hand

[TetraSky]

Didn't bother reading the OP or watched the video.

 

But yes, they are. No question about it.

You pay for the privilege of opening a box in the hope of getting something good. If that's not gambling, I don't know what is.

 

It's essentially this thing in the form of a box you open instead of getting a random ball coming out associated to a prize.

[ZestyJalapeno]

8 minutes ago, BlackRogue said:

Especially when you have seen reports of things like children taking parents credit/debit cards to buy more FIFA packs or whatever it is, which is a huge indication of gambling addiction that there are children stealing money to fuel their loot crate opening.

 

It's deplorable, just greedy publishers preying on ignorant children through games, games that already cost £60+ to begin with.

[SansVarnic]

Seriously  

If you guys really put that much thought into something like this then in that pov everything is a gamble ... but in reality is it, you take a gamble as soon as you walk the door provided you walk outside once in a while ... /shrug

 

As for the topic at hand is it gambling?  essentially no it is not. Yeah your paying for random things but you already have an idea of the type of stuff you get, and in some cases you get to chose what category those item(s) are a part of. So no it is not really a gamble. In gambling you either do get something in return or your do not (mostly likely not). Since you pay for a service and receive a product every-time that is not considered gambling.

 

TL:DR You're over thinking this ... way to much.

 

*edit

OP, I listened to 10 seconds of this video and if this guy is seriously a favorite then I suggest you find someone of better value to listen to. The garbage that I heard in just 10 seconds ... I served 10 years in the service and heard some pretty foul stuff so I am not shy around it but seriously the f* word for every-other word is ridiculous.  Vocabulary people - learn to speak comprehensibly. If you cant speak a full sentence And dont make sense your not worth my attention.  

[DarkMatterX1]

ITT: Nanny-Staters

[KuJoe]

17 hours ago, Dogeystyle said:

Here comes the malicious part, these credits could either by grinded in game...or bought with real money through the online shop.

If you have the ability to get these loot crates without spending a dime of real money then it's not gambling. Giving people the option to spend their money instead of their time is not a bad thing and beneficial for all parties involved.

 

Do gaming publishers need to improve parental controls in their games that allow spending of real money? Yes. It should be much harder for somebody under 18 to use a credit card anywhere, but this opens a completely different can of worms that the same people condemning micro transactions would riot over so there's no way to fix it without the same people being pissed off so the publishers opt for the path that makes them money.

 

Are "loot boxes" a form a gambling? It completely depends on the game.

 

Are micro transactions a bad thing? Only if you turn it into a bad thing for yourself.

[KuJoe]

17 hours ago, Dogeystyle said:

Now, what if Kinder then starts selling mandatory crates of Kinder Eggs that may contain actual kinder eggs and/or useless inedible rocks wrapped in foil with a totally random distribution of the two items in any given crate?

In this example yes, it would be gambling. But your analogy doesn't match up with how loot crates/boxes work. Here's a better analogy of how loot crates/boxes work:

 

You open the crate/box and you get a candy. It might taste horrible, but it's still candy every time.

[,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,]

with this theory any sort of mystery toy would be gambling. ie mighty beans.

 

 

honestly who cares everyone 2017 seems to cry about everything. if you're addicted to buying boxes full of toys... i dont know what to say.

[MimigaKing]

This petition showed up on Reddit today. Though only UK people can vote. 

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/201300

 

But yes, this is very much the grey zone of gambling. 

[KuJoe]

2 minutes ago, Reece Leu said:

with this theory any sort of mystery toy would be gambling. ie mighty beans, 

Exactly. I'm guessing the UK doesn't have trading card games or collectible sports cards. I can't imagine a world without POGs, Pokemon, MTG, or Yu-Gi-Oh (I know, my age is showing here).

[Atmos]

57 minutes ago, DarkMatterX1 said:

ITT: Gamers upset at full priced games demanding microtransactions for progression at any kind of fathomable rate

Fixed that for you pal

 

Should the government always step in to dictate market affairs? No, obviously not.

Should we as consumers have the power to demand change in the products we buy, by buying those than enact the change we demand? Absolutely.

 

However the industry isnt listening. Frankly there aren't enough people who understand at all why these practices are hurting them, so they do and say nothing about it. You don't have to realize you're being f*cked to get f*cked.

 

It is because of those people, the ones who just say "oh, preordering this isn't that bad. So what if it isn't finished, cuts content from the final product, hurts fellow consumers, reinforces games to release with fewer and fewer launch features, its just a preorder!" or "Whats the harm in buying a few of these crates every couple weeks, its just $9! So what if i already paid the full price for the game but have been locked behind a paywall because I can't afford to spend hundreds of hours working towards a single new gun/perk?" It is those people precisely that defend these kinds of moves and those that are just blatantly indifferent or unwitting to their abuse by these publishers that allow them to ignore the demands of the actual literate people in the market. that allows these kinds of publishers to continue to push further and further, gouge the consumer more and more, all while the sheep sit back and allow it to happen. That is when some higher authority must intervene, when the blanket populace objectively fails at being able to speak for its own benefit.

[redtute]

Don't forget Roblocks by son 9 year old spent about $200.00 Aus all up.

As clicked on links to get more robucks my son sort of knew what he was doing as he used my unlocked pay pal account to purchase. (Now locked) I don't think fully understood what he had done untill I confronted him.

He had also set me up with automatic payments.

 

These games are nothing more than kiddy gambling. 

They should be made illegal as kids don't understand what there doing when buying a few extra outfits for there avatars.

[Cookybiscuit]

1 hour ago, redtute said:

Don't forget Roblocks by son 9 year old spent about $200.00 Aus all up.

As clicked on links to get more robucks my son sort of knew what he was doing as he used my unlocked pay pal account to purchase. (Now locked) I don't think fully understood what he had done untill I confronted him.

He had also set me up with automatic payments.

 

These games are nothing more than kiddy gambling. 

They should be made illegal as kids don't understand what there doing when buying a few extra outfits for there avatars.

Don't give a 9 year old access to a credit card and maybe, we wouldn't have people like you crying for everything to be illegal if people learned to take responsibility for their actions.

[redtute]

40 minutes ago, Cookybiscuit said:

Don't give a 9 year old access to a credit card and maybe, we wouldn't have people like you crying for everything to be illegal if people learned to take responsibility for their actions.

I'm not crying just telling my story.

Read the what I wrote before adding your useless 2 cents. You don't have kids do you. 

My son used my PayPal account to buy kiddy gambling credits for loot.

He never had my credit card. I just didn't lock my paypal account after buying something on eBay. I bet everyone that at some stage.

It shouldn't be so easy to buy these loot craps on children's games, also no way of locking out these micro transaction. 

[SansVarnic]

6 hours ago, KuJoe said:

Exactly. I'm guessing the UK doesn't have trading card games or collectible sports cards. I can't imagine a world without POGs, Pokemon, MTG, or Yu-Gi-Oh (I know, my age is showing here).

Pogs have been a thing since I was a kid, heck it was a thing back when my parents were kids ... lol.

[PlayStation 2]

Literally everything in life is gambling with that view.

Welcome to 2017, where you can't walk a fucking inch without people complaining about opening stuff or doing anything that's optional.

[Princess Luna]

8 minutes ago, Dan Castellaneta said:

.

Just this recently there was an article on a national newspaper about this kid who spend approximately 800 dollars in cs:go cases+keys with parents credit card in a matter of 2 hours.

 

Whose fault is it? the parents obviously, Steam specifically explains cs:go is not a children's game in the first place, but as if 90% of parents care what they children play, they just want them to stop bothering them and stay quiet in front of the screen

[handymanshandle]

1 hour ago, Dan Castellaneta said:

Literally everything in life is gambling with that view.

Welcome to 2017, where you can't walk a fucking inch without people complaining about opening stuff or doing anything that's optional.

Yup. Stares at all those damn rainy day cosmetic cases and mann munitions boxes that I've had since I first played the game in 2014 or 2015.

1 hour ago, Princess Cadence said:

Just this recently there was an article on a national newspaper about this kid who spend approximately 800 dollars in cs:go cases+keys with parents credit card in a matter of 2 hours.

 

Whose fault is it? the parents obviously, Steam specifically explains cs:go is not a children's game in the first place, but as if 90% of parents care what they children play, they just want them to stop bothering them and stay quiet in front of the screen

Well that kid an absolute idiot, more than likely reflects the parents too as they probably aren't the brightest either.

 

I wonder if that kid was one of those kids who were given iPhone's/tablets when they were younger it pisses me off when parents do that.

 

I got my first laptop at age 9 because I did enough dog walking for my grandparents, and I got an iPod Touch at about age 10 or 11 as a gift. 

 

[Mira Yurizaki]

(EDIT) Disclaimer:  I am not a legal expert on this subject so take this post as you will.

 

I mean technically by definition, gambling is putting something on the line to win something else. But I'm pretty sure most legal definitions of gambling are "spend money to win money." Otherwise this would make raffling illegal in most places with a blanket "no gambling" law.

 

The biggest concern really with gambling I think, aside from the moral issues with it, is that it's a tax thing. The government really wants to know where your money and assets comes from and where it goes. So as long as the stakes aren't high, they don't care. It's not enough to send agents everywhere to audit the $500 you made at the casino that one night. There is a limit before you have to start reporting your winnings, but for whatever reason it's a "how much did you win at once?" rather than "how much did you win overall?", at least in the US. Or it could be an accumulation, but I don't know. I don't go to the casino all that much.

 

Even outside of casinos, you still have to do tax stuff if you win large value items (for example, cars) in raffle drawings.

 

In any case, the tl;dr:

• I'm certain gambling in most legal definitions is "spend money to win money"
• The value of loot crates is small enough that it's not worth while to go after.

Edited October 9, 2017 by M.Yurizaki

[Froody129]

Well I also think we need to remember that if you lock everything away from kids then they'll never learn to make decisions by themselves. Why do the kids even have access to their parent's credit card anyway? I don't care what others spend their money on but it is having an effect on the game industry because everything is being locked away behind a paywall because they know that people buy crap like this...

[TVwazhere]

I say it's not gambling, and here's why...

 

From dictionary.com

Spoiler

verb (used without object), gambled, gambling.

1.

to play at any game of chance for money or other stakes.

2.to stake or risk money, or anything of value, on the outcome ofsomething involving chance:

to gamble on a toss of the dice.

verb (used with object), gambled, gambling.

3.to lose or squander by betting (usually followed by away):

He gambled all his hard-earned money away in one night.

4.to wager or risk (money or something else of value):

to gamble one's freedom.

5.to take a chance on; venture; risk:

I'm gambling that our new store will be a success.

noun

6.

any matter or thing involving risk or hazardous uncertainty.

7.

a venture in a game of chance for stakes, especially for high stakes

To gamble is to take risk for a chance to get something greater. Money, time, a business, whatever it may be. And yes, by definition, a loot box is taking a risk in the hopes you get something good. 

 

For me, what separates traditional gambling like casino's from loot boxes i the fact that with loot boxes, you're GUARANTEED to get something. It might be crap, but you at least still get something. With casinos, you wither win or lose. You can win $10,000 in one second or lose $50,000 just as fast. There's no in between. Just because you didnt get that legendary skin or OP gun out of the box doesn't mean you didnt still get something for your money.

 

By that definition, Pokemon trading card packs would be considered gambling, since you dont know what you're getting until you open it. 

[Mira Yurizaki]

3 minutes ago, TVwazhere said:

-Snip.-

I like that. The fact you're guaranteed to get something is better way of drawing the line.

 

Then again playing a crane game now counts as gambling

[TVwazhere]

Just now, M.Yurizaki said:

I like that. The fact you're guaranteed to get something is better way of drawing the line.

 

Then again playing a crane game now counts as gambling

How many quarter's I've sunked into that as a kid..... Crap haha!