Coffee Lake has a reason not to run on Z270

[Morgan MLGman]

2 hours ago, Suika said:

Maybe, but there's no guarantee that every Z170/270 board would have worked with Coffee Lake, and it'd add a whole mess of confusion on the consumer side. There are some really shitty, lowend Z170/270 boards out there that probably don't even account for overclocking, let alone throwing in two more cores.

Yeah, because releasing a new generation of CPUs based on the same socket with the same name which is incompatible with previous chipsets that have the exact same socket isn't confusing to consumers at all...

[Trik'Stari]

2 hours ago, Suika said:

Yea, it's mostly just a clarification as to why Coffee Lake won't be compatible on Z270, but it seems a lot of users still don't trust Intel's judgement on this decision because we're all engineers.

More angry at Intels planned obsolescence screwing us over.

 

They could have made it work, but didn't. Because f**k you give us all your money

 

Doing this completely negates any reason to keep the socket the same, and yet they do keep the socket the same. Hell, they could have just made Z270 CPU's work in Z370 boards and I would be happy. But no, they just said screw it, no one gets anything, we get all the money.

[TrigrH]

i'm so fucking sick of intel just firmware locking shit for no real reason, why cant someone find a work around or something

[Master Disaster]

2 hours ago, Suika said:

Yea, it's mostly just a clarification as to why Coffee Lake won't be compatible on Z270, but it seems a lot of users still don't trust Intel's judgement on this decision because we're all engineers.

We don't trust Intel's judgement because they've never given us reason to trust their judgement, especially over the last few months.

 

You think we wanted Kabylake X to be do damn confusing? Skylake X better than Kabylake X? The ability to buy a CPU for a very expensive board that literally cuts it's available features in half? Consumer grade CPUs rebadged and sold as more expensive HEDT CPUs? I5 HEDTs ffs? Bootable RAID that you must pay for?

 

Given Intel's recent behaviour do you really wonder why there is mistrust and confusion towards Intel from consumers right now? I sure as hell don't.

 

If TDP, power draw & VRM design really is the reason why CL can't work on Z170/270 then why did they also lock SL & KL from working with Z370?

[AlwaysFSX]

1 hour ago, juretrn said:

If Intel was fair, they'd certify "good" Z270 boards for CL compatibility.

*transistor

But that's mostly wrong. Electrons moving around isn't much of a "movement" - and it's never atoms in semiconductors that move. The currents involved in these processes are negligible, at east for the switching operation itself.

And then all the morons complaining about this will buy a board that should never handle these CPUs and cry when shit breaks.

 

Consumers can't think for themselves because they're too dumb, that's why this happens.

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, RadiatingLight said:

but where does the heat come from?

electricity!

 

all electricity that goes into a CPU will turn into energy, and no more.

 

if a CPU outputs 500W of heat, then it has consumed exactly 500W of electricity to do so. no more, no less. energy is not (and cannot) be used up in the process of calculating, it simply transitions to heat.

 

8 hours ago, ionbasa said:

Not necessarily. Power in =/= Heat out. There's an efficiency factor attached to it. Think of the TDP as the average heat output at standard conditions (Conduction + Radiative, convection is mostly irrelevant until the heat transfers to a fin array). If anything TDP is more of a 'ballpark number' to help heat sink manufacturers. I say ballpark because TDP does vary based on a number of conditions such as: clock speed, AVX instruction sets, voltages, OC, and more.

 

So while you may be pushing 700W to the CPU, you may only get 150W out as heat. That leaves 550W 'unaccounted' for, but the output power of the device is transferred elsewhere in some useful form, such as: flipping bits, driving gates, transistors, etc. Those devices use energy to do work.  So thats where the rest of the power discrepancies is from.

As above but also if you look at actual reviews of CPUs at stock under 100% load power draw is above TDP by a lot. TDP should never be used as an indicator of power draw, we have reviews for that. Why is it a technical specification used for cooler design is taken above actual measurements by multiple independent sources is plain confusing.

 

By your own example of 500W that is impossible based on your argument, there are no 500W TDP CPUs so how could this be? Unless TDP is not a power usage specification for CPUs.

 

TDP has been, will always be, will never change, for cooler design for typical loads expected for the product. TDP is actually not that important for desktop computers since over rated coolers are almost always used but for mobile devices this is an important figure.

[Trixanity]

So what they've discovered is that Intel only engineers their board spec to meet the bare minimum required to function.

Whereas AMD tends to over-engineer the shit out of their products to the point where they could probably save a bit money by telling their engineers to take a chill pill.

[Sauron]

Further proof that the only reason z270 exists is to get more money out of overclockers, since clearly power delivery can be sub par no problem.

[mr moose]

33 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

Oh hey

Don't think it was clear enough to explain your point though

Surprised that hasn't come up in my feed/recommendations with all the shit I type into google.

 

I'll change what I said, he needs to update it because technical he's wrong on some accounts.

 

1. it's not meant to tell us how much heat a chips is expected to output, it is the total dissipation in watts a thermal solution needs to handle to maintain a chip at a specified temperature.

2. it is not "made up as they go"

[AlwaysFSX]

14 minutes ago, Trixanity said:

So what they've discovered is that Intel only engineers their board spec to meet the bare minimum required to function.

Whereas AMD tends to over-engineer the shit out of their products to the point where they could probably save a bit money by telling their engineers to take a chill pill.

9590 melting motherboards.

 

Also have you seen most boards pre-AM4? Terrible. 

[leadeater]

11 minutes ago, AlwaysFSX said:

Also have you seen most boards pre-AM4? Terrible. 

Still over engineered for the performance of bulldozer architecture CPUs. Couldn't help it, that joke was a free hit lol.

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Trik'Stari said:

More angry at Intels planned obsolescence screwing us over.

 

They could have made it work, but didn't. Because f**k you give us all your money

 

Doing this completely negates any reason to keep the socket the same, and yet they do keep the socket the same. Hell, they could have just made Z270 CPU's work in Z370 boards and I would be happy. But no, they just said screw it, no one gets anything, we get all the money.

Maybe because if they can reuse the socket they save themselves retooling costs, not only for the socket but for the CPU as well.

Also, as has been pointed out, how are Intel going to make more money from this?  Only one person has put their hand up to to say they were intending to put a CL on a z270, and they can't even explain why they thought that was a good idea.

 

1 hour ago, AlwaysFSX said:

And then all the morons complaining about this will buy a board that should never handle these CPUs and cry when shit breaks.

 

Consumers can't think for themselves because they're too dumb, that's why this happens.

 

Exactly,  auto manufacturers put rev limiters on cars because people are dumb and don't know when to stop,  Intel and AMD and Nvidia put thermal throttling controls on all their chips becasue consumers are dumb and don't know when to stop.  Basically consumers push their shit too hard, then it breaks and they whinge how it's X companies fault.  You can't blame them for covering their arse when it is obvious that not all Z series boards will be able to safely handle the new CPU's.

 

But hey, peeps, point on this CPU where the big bad Intel hurt you.

[AlwaysFSX]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

But hey, peeps, point on this CPU where the big bad Intel hurt you.

Right in the wallet.

 

Everyone here does know you don't need these new CPUs, right..? It's not like you're strong armed into buying something marginally more powerful every year..

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Still over engineered for the performance of bulldozer architecture CPUs. Couldn't help it, that joke was a free hit lol.

Now that's just plain mean.

[Trixanity]

13 minutes ago, AlwaysFSX said:

9590 melting motherboards.

 

Also have you seen most boards pre-AM4? Terrible. 

No board should be forced to run a 9590 but have you seen any recent RX cards? The reference design rivals the best AIB boards.

Different engineers though but I wouldn't be surprised if it was discovered the CPU team picked up a little bit of that for Ryzen products.

[AlwaysFSX]

2 minutes ago, Trixanity said:

No board should be forced to run a 9590 but have you seen any recent RX cards? The reference design rivals the best AIB boards.

Different engineers though but I wouldn't be surprised if it was discovered the CPU team picked up a little bit of that for Ryzen products.

You mean.. AMD released a product that shouldn't have run on older hardware because of new requirements..?

 

Oh my god that almost sounds like this exact situation. Verbatim.

 

Meanwhile the coolers are junk and AIB cards are noticeably lower quality than Nvidia cards.

[PianoPlayer88Key]

I would have really liked backward compatibility, so I could drop a 6c/12t or 8c/16t CPU in my Z170 / Skylake-based LGA1151-sporting laptop (Clevo P750DM-G).  It now has an i7-6700K (started with an i3-6100 then upgraded when 6700K was on sale Black Friday 2016).  I'd be okay with a non-K i7-8700 or i7-9700, but apparently I won't get that opportunity to put one in.  (I would have waited for a ~$250-270 Black Friday sale.)

 

As for desktop ... my Z97 motherboard might be dead (I have another week or two old thread on that).  I'm definitely taking a good hard look at Ryzen / AM4, although I may instead take that i3-6100, get an LGA1151 MicroATX board (considering the Gigabyte GA-B250M-D3H) and build a NAS, while using my laptop as my main PC like I am now.

My original upgrade plan was to wait for DDR5 and PCI Express 5.0 or so, then hopefully be able to get a motherboard that would support at least 512GB or 1TB RAM (without being a server board), be forward compatible for at least several years or more (for example outlasting a SeaSonic Prime PSU or two), and not be stuck with incremental per-generation CPU improvements or lack of compatibility with future CPUs, among other things.

[Trixanity]

44 minutes ago, AlwaysFSX said:

You mean.. AMD released a product that shouldn't have run on older hardware because of new requirements..?

 

Oh my god that almost sounds like this exact situation. Verbatim.

 

Meanwhile the coolers are junk and AIB cards are noticeably lower quality than Nvidia cards.

Or you could say two different reasonings: one is desperation, the other greed.

Intel could easily overprovision a little bit without hurting their bottom line, AMD being desperate for relevance releases a poor product that's clocked beyond what the silicon can really handle. Intel could engineer their products with some foresight considering they plan ahead several years. Flip the argument around and AMD's 9000 series was nothing more than binned 8000 series that are overclocked to meet some semblance of a performance target at the cost of unrestrained power consumption. It shouldn't have been released. It was a pointless product. In the same vein, I do think AMD should have downlocked their Vega cards to achieve much better efficiency at minimal performance loss however it seems that ultimate performance is more important than the overall product impression but that's beside the point of this thread.

 

Most blower coolers are junk. The only thing that can aid a blower cooler is reducing TDP or massive innovation in blower cooler design. However if you want to design a product for every possible scenario a blower cooler it is. As for AIB cards being this or that: that's up to each individual company to engineer.

 

I sense great anger in you, friendo. Maybe take aforementioned chill pill.

[leadeater]

14 minutes ago, Trixanity said:

it seems that ultimate performance is more important than the overall product impression but that's beside the point of this thread.

That's what people demand and ultimately judge success on. Everyone would be singing a different tune if Vega 64 was faster than 1080 Ti even with a literal double power draw (it's not). Due to these parameters AMD is essentially forced in to releasing a product tuned above it's realistic performance and power targets to accommodate this demand, had Vega 56 been the top end card and one lower than that which was more power efficient Vega would have been deemed a bigger failure than it has been now.

[| Rembo |]

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

Intel and AMD and Nvidia put thermal throttling controls on all their chips becasue consumers are dumb and don't know when to stop.  Basically consumers push their shit too hard, then it breaks and they whinge how it's X companies fault.

They main reason they placed thermal throttling is for when malfuntions happens like for example when your cooler stops working or when your case fan stops. so many general consumers have pc they keep without cleaning for years with one small case fan and when one fan stops working you dont want the cpu to just die.

And before you start saying its the consumers fault i had my water cooler leak and stuff like that you dont notice right away.

 

my point is thermal throttling is such a good feature thats not only for stupid consumers.Even though i agree with you that most consumers are stupid.

[Drak3]

Looking back at AM3, AM2, and FM2, I agree with Intel's requiring a new chipset for new product as often as it does.

[AlwaysFSX]

1 hour ago, Trixanity said:

I sense great anger in you, friendo. Maybe take aforementioned chill pill.

Gosh this is too long of a post to reply to on a subject I don't really care about.

 

I'll put this:

If you look at x299 are all basically well built. The VRM fiasco is because someone intentionally tried running something out of spec, the same would happen here. You should expect your products to work in the generation they were designed for, and not more. A three year old motherboard should not be required to hold tech from generations down the line, that's how you hold products back a la AM3 and soon AM4.

 

I'm not even angry, I'm just a crass person, there's a difference, so don't think you're on a frigid high horse. The people that are angry that you should try calm down are all the ones whining that Intel is trying to protect from their own bad decisions.

[GDRRiley]

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

  Only one person has put their hand up to to say they were intending to put a CL on a z270, and they can't even explain why they thought that was a good idea.

hey I said I wanted to put CL in Z170. I want it so  I can upgrade down the line when my i5 is not doing so welll

[Bananasplit_00]

but can we put Kabylake in Z370 and overclock it better? thats what i want to know now  

[Yoinkerman]

Lol k

[Suika]

1 hour ago, GDRRiley said:

hey I said I wanted to put CL in Z170. I want it so  I can upgrade down the line when my i5 is not doing so welll

The question is more so, “Did you buy a Z170 board expecting compatibility with Coffee Lake?”