Project CARS devs address AMD performance issues, AMD drivers to blame entirely, PhysX runs on CPU only, no GPU involvement whatsoever.

[mr moose]

So straight from the horse's mouth that Gameworks is a huge problem for AMD.

 

That's not straight from the horses mouth, that's straight from the competition.  From the horses mouth would be either Nvidia themselves or even the game devs.

 

Really I am starting to wonder if people understand what makes something a biased source and why a biased source is not legitimate.

[zappian]

That's not straight from the horses mouth, that's straight from the competition.  From the horses mouth would be either Nvidia themselves or even the game devs.

 

Really I am starting to wonder if people understand what makes something a biased source and why a biased source is not legitimate.

 

Then if we argue that we can label the project cars devs a biased source since they are in cahoots with nvidia and did what was easier for them shifting the blame to wherever it was easier.

They are the epitome of biased but some people on this thread take their word as ghospel. Not necessarily you thought.

I will argue by that logic the project cars devs are not a legimitate source and this may not be a purely driver issue only if we are to go there.

[mr moose]

Then if we argue that we can label the project cars devs a biased source since they are in cahoots with nvidia and did what was easier for them shofting the blame to wherever it was easier.

They are the epitome of biased but some people on this thread take their word as ghospel. Not necessarily you thought.

I will argue by that logic the project cars devs are not a legimitate source and this may not be a purely driver issue only if we are to go there.

 

As far as I am concerned, when you have two companies that make opposing statements then I consider both to be equally suspicious.  I have not taken project cars word for it, which is why I have linked the article where Tim Sweeney (founder of Epic Games) and Richard Geldreich (Open GL developer at valve) have gone on the record with their opinions on gameworks and how it interplays with the whole game dev/AMD/Nvidia bias debacle.

[sgloux3470]

That's not straight from the horses mouth, that's straight from the competition.  From the horses mouth would be either Nvidia themselves or even the game devs.

 

Really I am starting to wonder if people understand what makes something a biased source and why a biased source is not legitimate.

 

He's an engineer who has worked for AMD, Intel and Nvidia who is directly involved with optimizing AMD drivers for gameworks games and he directly states that game devs are contractually hamstrung from sharing the source code with them in order for AMD to optimize for it.  He also owns his own 3rd party consulting company to help developers optimize their graphics code.

 

Moreover, you have to consider the history of each company.  Nvidia is well known for locking everything they do to their own hardware.  3DVision, PhysX, CUDA, Gsync and now Gameworks.  They have a long history of doing this.  AMD is well known for being open.  Nothing they do is locked down to their hardware, including Mantle, TressFX Freesync and OpenCL.  They use or create open standards, Nvidia creates proprietary tech.  There is historical precedent for Nvidia to do what he claims.

 

But you know what, here's something that confirms exactly what he said FROM NVIDIA

 

 

 

Update (1/3/2014):  According to Nvidia, developers can, under certain licensing circumstances, gain access to (and optimize) the GameWorks code, but cannot share that code with AMD for optimization purposes.

 

Source: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/173511-nvidias-gameworks-program-usurps-power-from-developers-end-users-and-amd

[zappian]

As far as I am concerned, when you have two companies that make opposing statements then I consider both to be equally suspicious.  I have not taken project cars word for it, which is why I have linked the article where Tim Sweeney (founder of Epic Games) and Richard Geldreich (Open GL developer at valve) have gone on the record with their opinions on gameworks and how it interplays with the whole game dev/AMD/Nvidia bias debacle.

 

It will depend on a case by case basis.

The thing is when you have a gpu vendor be it AMD or NVIDIA working alongside the developer there is a clear bias involed.

Of course they want their game to be prioritized on their gpus , its human nature .

Maybe they sabotage the AMD cards like intel sabotaged the pentium 4 benchmarks , this is not conspiracy since it has happened in the past.

But maybe its as innocent as prioritizing their gpus and putting them on the forefront of optimizations.

Either way its a clear and present danger to pc gaming.

Imagine that AMD took a huge market share ( hypothetical of course lol) and almost eveyr game was gaming envolved and ran much better on AMD gpus.

This is very anti consumer and dangerous to gaming and pc gaming as a whole and I am 100% sure that when a gpu manufacturer works with a game dev there has to be some amount of bias , its just common sense. They want the game to run better and have more features and effects on their GPU its obvious.

[Guest Kloaked]

They want the game to run better and have more features and effects on their GPU its obvious.

Fucking shit you figured it out.

Time to go home boys, the huge secret is out.

[Rohith_Kumar_Sp]

Fucking shit you figured it out.

Time to go home boys, the huge secret is out.

MIND BLOWN 

[Agent181]

So the new update came out for project cars and all I can say is FUCK 

 

im glad i backed up the game to another hard drive so I still have the old one on it  

 

whatever happened in this new update fucks up the game for amd cards  

[Guest Kloaked]

So the new update came out for project cars and all I can say is FUCK

im glad i backed up the game to another hard drive so I still have the old one on it

whatever happened in this new update fucks up the game for amd cards

Could you elaborate? Specs?

Just know I'm going to ask around, because I know people with Radeon hardware. I even have an AMD rig myself.

[mr moose]

He's an engineer who has worked for AMD, Intel and Nvidia who is directly involved with optimizing AMD drivers for gameworks games and he directly states that game devs are contractually hamstrung from sharing the source code with them in order for AMD to optimize for it.  He also owns his own 3rd party consulting company to help developers optimize their graphics code.

 

Moreover, you have to consider the history of each company.  Nvidia is well known for locking everything they do to their own hardware.  3DVision, PhysX, CUDA, Gsync and now Gameworks.  They have a long history of doing this.  AMD is well known for being open.  Nothing they do is locked down to their hardware, including Mantle, TressFX Freesync and OpenCL.  They use or create open standards, Nvidia creates proprietary tech.  There is historical precedent for Nvidia to do what he claims.

 

But you know what, here's something that confirms exactly what he said FROM NVIDIA

 

 

 

Update (1/3/2014):  According to Nvidia, developers can, under certain licensing circumstances, gain access to (and optimize) the GameWorks code, but cannot share that code with AMD for optimization purposes.

 

Source: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/173511-nvidias-gameworks-program-usurps-power-from-developers-end-users-and-amd

 

So?  you seem to have missed the point.  It doesn't matter what position he holds int he company or his experience, he is being paid by AMD to say what suits the company. don't fool yourself.  Do you believe everything your told because the person telling you is professional/experienced?  what about when Nvidia tried to claim twice the power per watt? you believe that? surely you must because it came straight from the horses mouth. 

 

 

It will depend on a case by case basis.

The thing is when you have a gpu vendor be it AMD or NVIDIA working alongside the developer there is a clear bias involed.

Of course they want their game to be prioritized on their gpus , its human nature .

Maybe they sabotage the AMD cards like intel sabotaged the pentium 4 benchmarks , this is not conspiracy since it has happened in the past.

But maybe its as innocent as prioritizing their gpus and putting them on the forefront of optimizations.

Either way its a clear and present danger to pc gaming.

Imagine that AMD took a huge market share ( hypothetical of course lol) and almost eveyr game was gaming envolved and ran much better on AMD gpus.

This is very anti consumer and dangerous to gaming and pc gaming as a whole and I am 100% sure that when a gpu manufacturer works with a game dev there has to be some amount of bias , its just common sense. They want the game to run better and have more features and effects on their GPU its obvious.

 

You know the one big answer to that "danger" is that instead of complaining about it AMD could actually do something about it and work closer with the game devs or provide their own version of gameworks or even do what they are asking Nvidia to do and open up all their drivers and middleware for anyone to see.

 

I'm all for not seeing a bias in games (intentional or not) but the reality is if the roles were reversed I would still feel the same.  The company that puts in the money and time reaps the harvest.   a good outcome requires money invested into R+D, product implementation support,  software to support the features of the hardware, support for third party programers/users.  All this support and addition software development costs more, so the end products cost more, but the overall end result is better.  In all seriousness which company is doing this and which company is only doing it for a few AAA titles? 

[zappian]

So?  you seem to have missed the point.  It doesn't matter what position he holds int he company or his experience, he is being paid by AMD to say what suits the company. don't fool yourself.  Do you believe everything your told because the person telling you is professional/experienced?  what about when Nvidia tried to claim twice the power per watt? you believe that? surely you must because it came straight from the horses mouth. 

 

 

 

You know the one big answer to that "danger" is that instead of complaining about it AMD could actually do something about it and work closer with the game devs or provide their own version of gameworks or even do what they are asking Nvidia to do and open up all their drivers and middleware for anyone to see.

 

I'm all for not seeing a bias in games (intentional or not) but the reality is if the roles were reversed I would still feel the same.  The company that puts in the money and time reaps the harvest.   a good outcome requires money invested into R+D, product implementation support,  software to support the features of the hardware, support for third party programers/users.  All this support and addition software development costs more, so the end products cost more, but the overall end result is better.  In all seriousness which company is doing this and which company is only doing it for a few AAA titles? 

 

I just wish there wasnt suçh a big emphasis on the gpu vendors to chime in the process of of optimization . Maybe new APIS will streamline the optimization somewhat and make it more uniform.

Otherwise you have devs working with vendors that have their best interests at heart and not the interests of the general consumer.

And I urge we boycott the games with this anti consumer practises until then . I sure will do it .

No matter how much you justify it its still shitty and anti consumer be it AMD or nvidia or intel or whatever doing it.

There is no excuse for mid end cards like the 660 ti and the 960 beating the290x in this game where in other games it isnt the case by MILES.

[Agent181]

Could you elaborate? Specs?

Just know I'm going to ask around, because I know people with Radeon hardware. I even have an AMD rig myself.

Fx 6300 with 280x 16 gisg ram

[ivan134]

What's your point,  Richard huddy is a marketing man for AMD, that was his sole role when he was out and about.  All he did was rubbish the competition. 

Also I wouldn't call extreme tech biased when they are giving both AMD and Nvidia a voice in the article.

 

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/183411-gameworks-faq-amd-nvidia-and-game-developers-weigh-in-on-the-gameworks-controversy

I just read the article and I'm really not sure how it supports your position. Did you choose to ignore the parts that you don't agree with?

[mr moose]

I just read the article and I'm really not sure how it supports your position. Did you choose to ignore the parts that you don't agree with?

What position do you think  I hold?

[zappian]

I just read the article and I'm really not sure how it supports your position. Did you choose to ignore the parts that you don't agree with?

 

There is some serious strawmaning going on here for sure.

People ignoring sources at will and giving blank statements/ excuses like " the graphs must be wrong".

[Guest Kloaked]

There is some serious strawmaning going on here for sure.

People ignoring sources at will and giving blank statements/ excuses like " the graphs must be wrong".

 

Where is the strawmanning? Who's giving excuses that "the graphs must be wrong"?

 

If anyone is making strawman arguments it's the people who try to weave together half-truths to make it sound like Gameworks/Nvidia is the culprit for poor performance on RADEON cards.

[zappian]

Where is the strawmanning? Who's giving excuses that "the graphs must be wrong"?

 

If anyone is making strawman arguments it's the people who try to weave together half-truths to make it sound like Gameworks/Nvidia is the culprit for poor performance on RADEON cards.

 

 

The gpu arquiteçtures are different and they are using a different API like the post above this one stated.

Its not an apples to apples comparison by  any means.

And like the poster above said the gtx 960 beats a 290x . Even in GTA V where amd drivers for that game are çrap you dont see this gap between gpus.

There are so shenanigans going with the developer and nvidia no doubt.

 

 

ya i saw that earlier, i think they messed up their charts, no way a 960 beats 780 and 780ti, have a look at their rest of the chart it's normal as usual 780's and ti's are above 960 as it should be, don't take those benchmarks of the 1st image as a gospel  

GTA 5 - both companies released the drivers at the same rime, AMD were't as on par as nvidia so it ran better on nvidia. there is thing called fragmented belief, you only know what you wanted to know to argue it's all nvidias fault that GTA 5 runs better on Nvidia and not on AMD, so you created a story around it saying because nvidia somehow managed to mess AMD to make games slower on their cards? i mean come on, somewhere in there even you gotta believe its BS you are speaking 

 

 

 

 

AMDs gta V drivers were really subpar compared to nvidia.

Oh they messed up the graphs? Denial much?

Here are graphs from another publication.

 

 

The denial is really strong isnt it ? 

gtx 660 ti beating a 290x.

OH THEY BOTH MESSED UP THE GRAPHS.

What coincidence.

 

 

Not the point.

The game runs grossly better on nvidia cards . The 660 ti beats a 290x which is not so in normal circunstances.

[ivan134]

What position do you think  I hold?

I'm assuming its that AMD are lying about game works being hard to optimize for. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

[Marlon]

who needs 16x AF (sorry to dive in, just kinda curious - if you run at native res 16x imo is a tad unnecessary)

[BuckGup]

If AMD had better drivers I would honestly get 2 R9 290Xs. But as of right now Nvidia looks like a way better option.

[Brainless906]

If AMD had better drivers I would honestly get 2 R9 290Xs. But as of right now Nvidia looks like a way better option.

 

This post seems to be fueled by bias years old. Drives have been solid on both sides of the fence now for years (even betas, though they are a little shakier). The whole amd drivers being stable is the only thing older than the amd cards running hot misinformation. 

[Guest Kloaked]

 

 

Well he's got a point. The 960 shouldn't be outperforming a 780 at 1080p.

 

Also, something is wrong there, especially if those graphs are even accurate. I even acknowledged earlier that something may very well be wrong with the game itself with how they have PhysX running.

[BuckGup]

This post seems to be fueled by bias years old. Drives have been solid on both sides of the fence now for years (even betas, though they are a little shakier). The whole amd drivers being stable is the only thing older than the amd cards running hot misinformation. 

Well look at new AAA game releases. They all have better nvidia optimization.

[Brainless906]

Well look at new AAA game releases. They all have better nvidia optimization.

How so? You mean Nvidia cards perform better in general? That's great...they are also a generation newer than the AMD cards so that hardly counts for anything. If we look to the past when AMD drivers actually sucked then we'd see games being basically unplayable all the time and that's not even remotely close to the case at this point. 

[zappian]

Well look at new AAA game releases. They all have better nvidia optimization.

 

Do you know if this is a driver issue?

All we have is the developers word on this and they are extremely biased because:

1- They are working with nvidia.

2- There are nvidia banners all over the game.

Of course its easy to blame AMD drivers like ubisoft did with unity.

What proof do you have its a driver issue besides the less than credible account of these shady as hell devs?

Zero.

Talking about new AAA games I run gta V at 60 fps (r9 270x) and had no performance issues with that game.

And thats a nvidia game . Again no performance issues and I can share my benchmarks.