HEDT is back - Threadripper 7000 series - Zen 4

[porina]

Summary

AMD have announced their range of Zen 4 Threadripper 7000 series CPUs, in both Pro and non-Pro offerings.

 

Quotes

Quote

Being announced today by AMD for a November 21st launch, this morning AMD is taking the wraps off of their Ryzen 7000 Threadripper CPUs. These high-end chips are being split up into two product lines, with AMD assembling the workstation-focused Ryzen Threadripper 7000 Pro series, as well as the non-pro Ryzen Threadripper 7000 series for the more consumer-ish high-end desktop (HEDT) market.

 

 

 

My thoughts

For those of us needing (or wanting) more than consumer tier platforms can offer, AMD have announced two series of Threadripper CPUs based on Zen 4. Only non-Pro pricing has been given. Mobo pricing will certainly be interesting. The last HEDT platforms feel like forever ago. AMD's last non-Pro Threadripper was released in 2020. I'm still rocking X299 platform released in 2017, although the last CPUs for it were released in 2019. 

 

Pro models support 128 PCIe 5.0 lanes and 8 channel memory. Non-pro has 80 PCIe lanes, made up of 48 5.0 lanes and 32 4.0 lanes, along with 4 channel memory.
Non-pro starts $1499 for 24 cores, up to $4999 for 64 cores. Pro doesn't have pricing yet but is offered from 12 to 96 cores.

Be interested in seeing what mobo pricing is like. With Intel's two tiers of WS offerings, I actually found the higher one more interesting since the lower one wasn't cheap enough for the losses. I wonder if AMD will follow a similar path. I think a 12 or 16 core non-pro would have been sweet, especially if mobo pricing could be controlled.

Intel nearest offerings for comparison:
W-3400 series: 12-56 cores, 112 5.0 lanes, 8 channel ram. $1189-$5889
W-2400 series: 6-24 cores, 64 5.0 lanes, 4 channel ram. $359-$2189

 

Sources

https://www.anandtech.com/show/21092/amd-unveils-ryzen-threadripper-7000-family-zen-4-for-workstations-and-hedt

[Helpful Tech Witch]

3 minutes ago, porina said:

ntel nearest offerings for comparison:
W-3400 series: 12-56 cores, 112 5.0 lanes, 8 channel ram. $1189-$5889
W-2400 series: 6-24 cores, 64 5.0 lanes, 4 channel ram. $359-$2189

so what im hearing is AMD has offically killed intels HEDT even more than prior threadrippers have?

[porina]

28 minutes ago, Helpful Tech Witch said:

so what im hearing is AMD has offically killed intels HEDT even more than prior threadrippers have?

They can't kill what isn't there. Those are workstation CPUs, not HEDT.

 

I don't know exactly when they went on sale, but Intel's offerings were launched in February this year. AMD's are still over a month off with a sale date given of Nov. 21st.

 

Ok, that's picking on a detail. They're kinda operating in the same market area. On paper at least, if you want core count or PCIe lanes, TR7k does go higher. Intel could argue some niche wins here. If you need 5.0 lanes on the lower platform, Intel has more. AVX-512 probably would do better on Intel too, since they have the full fat dual unit implementations, not the double pumped 256-bit execution of Zen 4.

 

A pet annoyance of mine, directed firmly at AMD. Give us lower core count HEDT! I don't think I need more than 16 cores, but still want the platform benefits. TR non-pro starts at 24 cores, so I'd have to look at Pro for the lower core count. Again, mobo price pending. Then again the price of the AMD 24 core non-pro isn't that much more than the 16 core W-2400 nearest.

 

Edit: forgot to say, core scaling could also depend on the workload. AMD's chiplet design with relatively weak Infinity Fabric does hinder it if you have a shared data set. Intel's tile arrangement is more monolithic like.

[dizmo]

That TDP tho. Haha, that's one area the lower tier Intel offerings seem to have them beat. Plus the Intel chips support more RAM for the few users that will need that. 

 

I stopped being interested in HEDT when the core counts and add ons stopped adding literally anything to most users experiences. 

[WereCat]

1 hour ago, dizmo said:

That TDP tho. Haha, that's one area the lower tier Intel offerings seem to have them beat. Plus the Intel chips support more RAM for the few users that will need that. 

 

I stopped being interested in HEDT when the core counts and add ons stopped adding literally anything to most users experiences. 

TDP is just a number. 

 

Look at 13900k/14900k vs 7950X.

 

I want to see actual power draw. 

[AlwaysFSX]

24 cores for $1,500? Seriously? At least give the 128 lanes if you're going to charge 3x the 16 core CPU you have out today.

[Shimejii]

Such a massive disappointment. AMD is actively trying to kill off HEDT with this pricing, they know people wont actually consider the 24 core for 1500$, and will use that as an excuse to why "Threadripper failed" in a year or two again. 

 

 

Though it would be around 700$ to start and go up from there but 1500$ to start is a no go. I know some were looking forward to the PCIE lanes and such but at that pricing i just dont see it being viable.

[Kisai]

57 minutes ago, Shimejii said:

Such a massive disappointment. AMD is actively trying to kill off HEDT with this pricing, they know people wont actually consider the 24 core for 1500$, and will use that as an excuse to why "Threadripper failed" in a year or two again. 

Eh, that's actually not an unreasonable price considering the best you can get in an Intel part is 8 P cores.

 

I've been asking for years for someone to release a damn platform I can plug 3 GPU's into at 16 lanes. Two GPU's + 4 NVME's is something I could actually build and use.

 

 

 

57 minutes ago, Shimejii said:

 

Though it would be around 700$ to start and go up from there but 1500$ to start is a no go. I know some were looking forward to the PCIE lanes and such but at that pricing i just dont see it being viable.

It's viable for people who are doing actual GPU training/inference tasks for AI stuff, but actually want to use the computer for other things like games and video editing.

[igormp]

I still believe the non-Pro offerings make no sense, there should only be the Pro models.

[dogwitch]

48 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Eh, that's actually not an unreasonable price considering the best you can get in an Intel part is 8 P cores.

 

I've been asking for years for someone to release a damn platform I can plug 3 GPU's into at 16 lanes. Two GPU's + 4 NVME's is something I could actually build and use.

 

 

 

It's viable for people who are doing actual GPU training/inference tasks for AI stuff, but actually want to use the computer for other things like games and video editing.

cough same here.

my msi x399 can do  a 3gpu set up(water cooling only thru) and m.2 load out

[Spotty]

It still annoys me how similar AMD are making their product names to Intel. At least call it 7960TR or something instead of using the X that Intel used for their CPUs.

 

Mum, can we get a 7960X HEDT CPU?

No, you already have a 7960X HEDT CPU at home.

The 7960X you have at home: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/126697/intel-core-i97960x-xseries-processor-22m-cache-up-to-4-20-ghz/specifications.html

[Blue4130]

9 hours ago, porina said:

Those are workstation CPUs, not HEDT.

What's the difference?

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, Blue4130 said:

What's the difference?

Generally the breakdown for CPU's goes:

 

Hyper/Gigascale/CloudScape CPU's ($call for prices) 32core+ per physical CPU

Rack Server Multi-CPU systems (4-socket, and 2-socket systems, Xeon Gold/Platinum, EPYC)

Tower Server/Workstation single-CPU systems (Generally single socket systems with ECC)

HEDT (Single socket without ECC, multiple RAM and PCIe channels, AMD ThreadRipper)

Desktop (Single socket with 2 RAM channels, 20 PCIe lanes Intel K chips)

Laptop (soldered, Intel H/HX chips)

SoC (Tablets, Chromebooks, Intel U chips)

 

Basically the defining feature of any specific tier is what the chip is actually related to

Desktop Intel K chips and Laptop H/HX chips are basically the same part. Where as U parts often share a similar naming scheme but are meant for low-power applications.

 

ThreadRipper and EPYC are basically the same chip platform. So ThreadRipper technically belongs to the Server/Workstation/HEDT class of parts.  If you look through Dell's offerings, the single Threadripper Pro they offer is in the Precision Workstation listings.

 

In the case of Dell, the Precision Workstation, an XPS desktop and a Tower server are pretty much identical. Either you pick the Intel Desktop part, or the Xeon W3 part, or you pick the Threadripper Pro part. The Xeon and ThreadRipper Pro parts are only configurable with ECC memory.

 

Basically when people say they want a HEDT, what they mean is they want a workstation that is meant for "home desktop" purposes rather than "business purposes", you aren't buying HEDT instead of Workstation's for a business when you are working on engineering stuff. At least, you shouldn't.

 

Usually what you get as HEDT is really just a slightly nerfed workstation/server chip/motherboard without the ECC, and without all the RAM/PCIe lanes of the equal server chip.

 

[Blue4130]

50 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Generally the breakdown for CPU's goes:

 

Hyper/Gigascale/CloudScape CPU's ($call for prices) 32core+ per physical CPU

Rack Server Multi-CPU systems (4-socket, and 2-socket systems, Xeon Gold/Platinum, EPYC)

Tower Server/Workstation single-CPU systems (Generally single socket systems with ECC)

HEDT (Single socket without ECC, multiple RAM and PCIe channels, AMD ThreadRipper)

Desktop (Single socket with 2 RAM channels, 20 PCIe lanes Intel K chips)

Laptop (soldered, Intel H/HX chips)

SoC (Tablets, Chromebooks, Intel U chips)

 

Basically the defining feature of any specific tier is what the chip is actually related to

Desktop Intel K chips and Laptop H/HX chips are basically the same part. Where as U parts often share a similar naming scheme but are meant for low-power applications.

 

ThreadRipper and EPYC are basically the same chip platform. So ThreadRipper technically belongs to the Server/Workstation/HEDT class of parts.  If you look through Dell's offerings, the single Threadripper Pro they offer is in the Precision Workstation listings.

 

In the case of Dell, the Precision Workstation, an XPS desktop and a Tower server are pretty much identical. Either you pick the Intel Desktop part, or the Xeon W3 part, or you pick the Threadripper Pro part. The Xeon and ThreadRipper Pro parts are only configurable with ECC memory.

 

Basically when people say they want a HEDT, what they mean is they want a workstation that is meant for "home desktop" purposes rather than "business purposes", you aren't buying HEDT instead of Workstation's for a business when you are working on engineering stuff. At least, you shouldn't.

 

Usually what you get as HEDT is really just a slightly nerfed workstation/server chip/motherboard without the ECC, and without all the RAM/PCIe lanes of the equal server chip.

 

Said that you can't kill what is already dead referring to Intel w-24xx and w-34xx but by your classification, they would be equal, no? @porina

[atxcyclist]

They were on a roll with the 1000 series Threadripper, then the prices went fully into unobtanium-level with 2000+ offerings, and there's no longer a point to it.

[igormp]

2 hours ago, Kisai said:

HEDT (Single socket without ECC, multiple RAM and PCIe channels, AMD ThreadRipper)

 

Both TR versions support RDIMMs now, so the only stupid nerf is the halving of memory channels and less PCIe lanes. Same cores, just a different IOD, which is a really stupid virtual market segmentation IMO.

 

Heck, they even share the same socket.
 

2 hours ago, Kisai said:

4-socket, and 2-socket systems

Don't forget about the monstrous 8-socket systems out there.

[porina]

9 hours ago, igormp said:

I still believe the non-Pro offerings make no sense, there should only be the Pro models.

They can make sense, but there needs to be a sufficient price differential between them. I'd like to see a return to old HEDT where comparable core counts were comparable cost to consumer tier, the additional cost going into the platform (mobo).

 

5 hours ago, Blue4130 said:

What's the difference?

Marketing.

 

3 hours ago, Blue4130 said:

Said that you can't kill what is already dead referring to Intel w-24xx and w-34xx but by your classification, they would be equal, no? @porina

I did relate the non-Pro to the W-24xx and Pro to W-34xx. However you specifically said kill HEDT, they're not HEDT. Yes, I am picking at definitions that aren't necessarily reliable in the first place. It's not an exact match up between them.

[Blue4130]

53 minutes ago, porina said:

However you specifically said kill HEDT, they're not HEDT. Yes, I am picking at definitions that aren't necessarily reliable in the first place. It's not an exact match up between them.

Which is why I am asking for clarification. Why do you label one as HEDT and one not? Where is the line for you? Both have more than dual channel for ram. Both can use ECC, both have more PCI lanes than consumer platforms.

Why is one "HEDT" and one is "workstation"?

[porina]

1 minute ago, Blue4130 said:

Why is one "HEDT" and one is "workstation"?

Marketing. It's HEDT if it is sold as HEDT. I'm not even sure if AMD themselves have called these new Threadripper non-Pros HEDT, but it does follow their previous offerings in that area. Intel Workstation CPUs are targeted differently, even if in some use cases they overlap.

[leadeater]

17 hours ago, porina said:

For those of us needing (or wanting) more than consumer tier platforms can offer

Hi 

 

17 hours ago, porina said:

up to $4999 for 64 cores

Oh... I see. These aren't for "me" 

 

I miss X58 & X79 pricing so much haha

[leadeater]

@porina FYI if you didn't know The Pro CPUs are supported in the sTRX non-pro motherboards. You just lose out on usable memory channels and PCIe lanes.

 

I'm hoping the 7945WX comes in under the price of the 7960X.

 

35 minutes ago, porina said:

Marketing. It's HEDT if it is sold as HEDT. I'm not even sure if AMD themselves have called these new Threadripper non-Pros HEDT, but it does follow their previous offerings in that area.

They kind of do, Pro and HEDT

 

[williamcll]

Both are not OEM exclusive right?

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, williamcll said:

Both are not OEM exclusive right?

Nope, we can actually buy both.

[Kisai]

4 hours ago, igormp said:

Both TR versions support RDIMMs now, so the only stupid nerf is the halving of memory channels and less PCIe lanes. Same cores, just a different IOD, which is a really stupid virtual market segmentation IMO.

 

Heck, they even share the same socket.
 

And the Pro's can even be used on the HEDT chipset, though the only scenario I can imagine why you'd want to is if you ONLY need CPU cores over CPU frequency and not RAM or PCIe lanes.

 

4 hours ago, igormp said:

Don't forget about the monstrous 8-socket systems out there.

Yeah, some systems are clearly not aimed at common use cases. The more sockets there are, the less the use case justifies it's existence. Like just speaking about web servers, they pretty much peak at 8-cores before either the RAM or Disk bandwidth become a problem. Doesn't matter if it's one 8-core CPU or two 4 core CPU's. Your average desktop, even a high end one is better having a single CPU so that it can utilize all the RAM and PCIe lanes rather than having them split across physical processors.

 

 

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

@porina FYI if you didn't know The Pro CPUs are supported in the sTRX non-pro motherboards. You just lose out on usable memory channels and PCIe lanes.

 

I'm hoping the 7945WX comes in under the price of the 7960X.

 

They kind of do, Pro and HEDT

 

 

We've seen prices already for everything but the 55WX and 45WX but I don't think there's much hope for parity with anything seen in the previous two generations.

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-announces-threadripper-hedt-and-pro-7000-wx-series-processors-96-cores-and-192-threads-for-desktops-and-workstations

 

https://www.techpowerup.com/cpu-specs/threadripper-pro-7945wx.c3362

Techpowerup says 7945WX is $1399 and 7955WX is $1899 , though I'm not sure where they got the prices from, or if they just cribbed it from another page. I did see these prices show up on a chinese language forum, though that to me isn't proof.

 

 

 

 

[Franck]

20 hours ago, porina said:

Be interested in seeing what mobo pricing is like

if it's like the last 2 gen i have been screwed over it will be 2 or 3 motherboard (total all AIB included) that you can actually buy. And after a while none are produced anymore so if something break it's now an expensive brick. They wont get me 3 times