chatgpt A Princeton student built an app which can detect if ChatGPT wrote an essay to combat AI-based plagiarism

[Beskamir]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Most of the western world is so wealthy now that average students can afford to pay someone else to write their assignments? I wonder if these students are also the ones using "boomer" as a derogatory term blaming older generations for the cost of housing, living, etc?

 

 

Almost certainly they're the same group. The truly enlightened blame supply and demand for the increased cost of living and considering that birthrates are below replacement in the west there's only really one other explanation for why supply cannot keep up with demand.

[LAwLz]

2 hours ago, Mihle said:

I am fine with graded things is written in the classroom, but by hand? No. As someone that has problems with shitty handwriting, just no. Well, math is fine for hand but writing long texts, no.

Just use PCs with those tests mode and no internet.

2 hours ago, Mihle said:

Just use PC without internet/with test mode.

Or just the keep an eye out on what they are doing.

People have bad handwriting and have valid reasons for it.

 

Personally, I learn a lot more from doing tasks than I do from just reading on my own, no matter if it's at school or on my own.

 

Graded stuff should be done at school, but I am also against just having one big test at the end of the year, have more things that is down at school and is graded.

I don't have much insight into how she teaches but my impression is that she is one of the few teachers who does things this way, while the others let students use computers during the tests and just assumes they don't cheat (probably tries to keep an eye on their screens). As a result, there is no system in place for turning on and off Internet access for certain computers at certain times. 

 

Maybe I shouldn't defend her teaching practices because I am not entirely sure how she does it, but I think it is important to not jump to conclusions and assume things are a certain way, and then be against that.

I am not saying her methodology is perfect, but from what I have gathered it seems fine and prevents most cheating, including the potential use of ChatGPT. Every school and every subject is different so I don't think there is one perfect solution that works everywhere. But from what I have gathered her lessons might look something like this, just as an example:

Lesson 1: Watch a movie and write a review and analysis. If you don't finish, it becomes homework.

Some day later: Everyone hands in their written reviews. My sister might read through them quickly but doesn't put too much focus on them.

Lesson 2: Discussions about the movie happens orally in the classroom. People will instinctively pull things from the reviews and analysis they wrote, so the more work they put into that the better they might perform during the oral task. This is where my sister would judge their performance.

 

The students might not even be aware that the written part doesn't factor into their score. It doesn't factor in directly, but it does so indirectly because if they cheat on that part they will most likely not perform as well on the oral part.

 

Again, this is just an example. Don't get too stuck on this idea and try and poke holes at this particular assignment. It's just to show that there are more ways of going about giving students assignments than the old "everyone sits at their desk, nobody talks, and then write page after page of answers". Even in such a scenario there are ways of helping those who might be bad at writing, or to ease the burden of correcting the answers. For example multiple choice questions that doesn't require writing that much.

 

 

Plus, maybe your handwriting is bad because you haven't had to use it enough? Being forced to use it more could help improve it. There are a lot of benefits to writing by hand compared to writing on a computer. Students who regularly write by hand are often better at spelling than students who do not, and studies indicate that we learn better if we write by hand.

[Doobeedoo]

Future, AIs intertwined eventually realising we are the problem and a virus.

[Heliian]

At the end of the day, the point of school is learning.  By plagiarizing or cheating to get good grades, the student fails to actually learn and is worse off in the end.

 

 

[Mihle]

2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Lesson 2: Discussions about the movie happens orally in the classroom. People will instinctively pull things from the reviews and analysis they wrote, so the more work they put into that the better they might perform during the oral task. This is where my sister would judge their performance.

 

The students might not even be aware that the written part doesn't factor into their score. It doesn't factor in directly, but it does so indirectly because if they cheat on that part they will most likely not perform as well on the oral part.

Judging how well someone is in a subject by oral talk in the classroom only is a very poor way to do it. (Not saying people do that). Not everyone are talking that much publicly in class. Not everyone are extrovert or have the confidence. And some people just don't like attention it brings at all. Hell, some might not do it because they get bullied for it because they are little different. I am talking from experience.

2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

For example multiple choice questions that doesn't require writing that much.

In my experience, most teachers that make multiple choice tests is poor at it. Too few alternatives, and/or the correct answer is too obvious. It's probably harder to make a good multiple answer test than it is to make a good open answer one. (Not saying it shouldn't be used tho)

2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Plus, maybe your handwriting is bad because you haven't had to use it enough? Being forced to use it more could help improve it. There are a lot of benefits to writing by hand compared to writing on a computer. Students who regularly write by hand are often better at spelling than students who do not, and studies indicate that we learn better if we write by hand.

You would be correct in me not using it that much the last quite a few years, but I am not from the generation that went to school with laptops and iPads from first grade.

 

From 1-7 grade, 95% of things were not done on PCs, from 7-10 grade, probably 70-80% were not done on PCs. I think there were two sets of laptops per 4 classes and they weren't used all the time at all. Not counting I got special permission in 10th grade to use laptop to write on while others wrote for hand because my handwriting was do shitty. I also got extra writing help compared to other people in my class before that.

 

So yes, I have done quite a bit of handwriting at that time.  And my handwriting still wasn't good. And it was a total waste trying to make me learn connected letters.

 

TLDR: So reasons why my bad handwriting when I was younger? How much I wrote? Nope. PCs? Nope. It's just how well I am capable of controlling my hands with fine continuous movements. Motor skills or whatever it's called.

 

There is a link between autism and poor handwriting, go search for it if you are curious.

 

It can be true for other people too, some people are just bad at handwriting because how they were born.

[Dracarris]

7 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

Me who used chatGPT to translate 2 guides I had to send to a client and is now part of the official documentation of the company I work for...

For pure translation tasks there "always" has been deepl.com. Just massage the result a bit and you're fine. That's how I did it with the translation of the abstract of my thesis (from English to an official language, which is a formal requirement) and is nowadays standard for many businesses.

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, Mihle said:

Judging how well someone is in a subject by oral talk in the classroom only is a very poor way to do it. (Not saying people do that). Not everyone are talking that much publicly in class. Not everyone are extrovert or have the confidence. And some people just don't like attention it brings at all. Hell, some might not do it because they get bullied for it because they are little different. I am talking from experience.

1 hour ago, Mihle said:

In my experience, most teachers that make multiple choice tests is poor at it. Too few alternatives, and/or the correct answer is too obvious. It's probably harder to make a good multiple answer test than it is to make a good open answer one. (Not saying it shouldn't be used tho)

 

Responses like this is why I was so careful to stress this point:

4 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Again, this is just an example. Don't get too stuck on this idea and try and poke holes at this particular assignment. It's just to show that there are more ways of going about giving students assignments than the old "everyone sits at their desk, nobody talks, and then write page after page of answers".

 

Don't get too caught up on the details of my post. Those were just examples of how some tests might be done. I am not a teacher but I would guess that mixing it up is a good idea. Maybe doing multiple choice for a few assignments, doing open answers for some other, oral for a few, and so on and so forth. Different subjects might need different types of tests as well. Your grade should be based on multiple assignments anyway, so even if one does not play to your strength you should have the opportunity to show your knowledge in other ones.

 

If the only way to show your knowledge happens to be a way that allows for cheating, like doing things out of sight from a teacher or when you got access to the Internet, then maybe you don't deserve a passing grade. And just so you don't misunderstand me, when I write "you" I don't necessarily mean you, the person calling themself Mihle on LTT. I am using "you" as a stand in for a hypothetical student who would object to different types of assignments because they feel like they wouldn't do well at them.

[suicidalfranco]

Eh

Just do it the Italian way, no homework is graded, your only grades are in class on written test, surprise and programmed, and oral interrogations, surprise and programmed.

No PC, no phones, no smartwatches, only a non programmable, scientific calculator for the technical courses that require it.

 

[12345678]

the same bs all over again

 

get money from investors by hyping bullcrap 

exploiting the crap by making other related crap

[Arika]

11 hours ago, Mihle said:

I am fine with graded things is written in the classroom, but by hand? No. As someone that has problems with shitty handwriting, just no.

That's because computers are being pushed into ever facet of life that people no longer learn how to handwrite.

 

Back when i was in school there was maybe 1 kid per class that had "bad handwriting", if I went back to school now I feel that number would be 70-90% have bad handwriting.

 

Students should never have been allowed to use computers for their school work (covid education from home being the exception).

Handwriting is as much a life skill as reading and kids don't even learn it any more

[Mihle]

2 hours ago, Arika S said:

That's because computers are being pushed into ever facet of life that people no longer learn how to handwrite.

 

Back when i was in school there was maybe 1 kid per class that had "bad handwriting", if I went back to school now I feel that number would be 70-90% have bad handwriting.

 

Students should never have been allowed to use computers for their school work (covid education from home being the exception).

Handwriting is as much a life skill as reading and kids don't even learn it any more

I am not part of the generation that grew up with lots of PCs in school. At least grade 1-9 that is. Reason in my case is that it's how my genes are, I have worse hand control.

And I was not alone in my class either.

 

I highly doubt the "there was maybe 1 kid per class that had "bad handwriting" is any accurate unless the classes are small.

 

And he'll no, in today's adult life you do not need to do any more handwriting than a sentence at a time basically. Not saying you should not learn it, you should, but it's much less useful now than it was 30 years ago. And being able to write on PCs is more important than it was before.

 

Kids do still learn handwriting but don't use it as much as they did before.

 

Comparing any of them importance to reading is to my mind stupid. Reading is THE most important skill basically.

 

[12345678]

1 hour ago, Mihle said:

I am not part of the generation that grew up with lots of PCs in school. At least grade 1-9 that is. Reason in my case is that it's how my genes are, I have worse hand control.

And I was not alone in my class either.

 

I highly doubt the "there was maybe 1 kid per class that had "bad handwriting" is any accurate unless the classes are small.

 

And he'll no, in today's adult life you do not need to do any more handwriting than a sentence at a time basically. Not saying you should not learn it, you should, but it's much less useful now than it was 30 years ago. And being able to write on PCs is more important than it was before.

 

Kids do still learn handwriting but don't use it as much as they did before.

 

Comparing any of them importance to reading is to my mind stupid. Reading is THE most important skill basically.

 

the only jobs that I saw where hand writing is required is either shitjobs like restaurants, although they are upgrading to overly complicated and expensive way to manage orders (tablets and shit websites)

or lobbies such as doctors (or schools for that matter) which do not want to upgrade, so you're forced to suckup their scam service and decode their shitty handwriting 

 

I'll give you an hint, they don't give a shit about kids nor about their education, all they care about it's about their jobs

[Kisai]

15 hours ago, Beskamir said:

I was mostly joking since making something fictional or imaginary is one way in which GPT's own filters/safeties can be bypassed. Although, I've been really impressed with what GPT can do and wouldn't be too surprised if it could change it's tone or reword things in a way in which the detector wouldn't be able to figure out if it's GPT anymore.

 

Even if it were not a joke, asking the AI to do something that isn't the most literal request, will accomplish nothing. This is why when people are told how to use these AI's, they're supposed to be extremely verbose as to what they want it to do. If you tell it to write an essay on how they made a pizza with corvid meat that tastes great. It will do so. Even though a human is extremely unlikely to do this. It lacks the imagination and rational thought to go "nobody would do that without a gun to the back of their head."

 

You can't tell ChatGPT to change it's programming mid-flight, that's not how the inference works. It learns from a "training" phase, and learns nothing new after that. When the session ends, any temporary adjustment to the weights made during inference steps, does not make it back into the training data. https://openai.com/blog/chatgpt/

 

 

So if you wanted a ChatGPT to sound a specific way, you would in fact need to go back to the training phase (left-most in image) and train it with people to sound that way. If you wanted ChatGPT to sound like Eminem, you would need to train every response by the human trainer that way.

 

This is why ChatGPT is "detectable", because you recognize the conversational attributes of how it was trained to sound.

 

[Mark Kaine]

7 hours ago, 12345678 said:

then complain about why everyone wants to fly off from that shithole

while at the same time deluding yourself as if Italy is the best nation 

tbf im pretty sure thats how its done in most of europe, and how it should be done, not encouraging cheating but instead do some real proper testing... these "surprise tests" can eff off though,  thats just stupid, no one learns everyday or can deal with the pressure,  but normal tests and how one can articulate surely should be main criteria for grades and not what they copied after school from the internet and present it as their own "work". 

[Mark Kaine]

3 hours ago, Mihle said:

Comparing any of them importance to reading is to my mind stupid. Reading is THE most important skill basically.

problem with that is someone who's not good at writing (grammatically,  not stories) won't be good at reading,  they both go kinda hand in hand.

 

And not everyone has a job where they're at a computer constantly  - thankfully,  so handwriting still makes sense, although nowadays you should probably learn both, typing and handwriting. 

 

 

1 hour ago, 12345678 said:

I'll give you an hint, they don't give a shit about kids nor about their education, all they care about it's about their jobs

teachers were always kinda shit, nothing new here sadly. 

[mr moose]

15 hours ago, LAwLz said:

 

Responses like this is why I was so careful to stress this point:

 

Don't get too caught up on the details of my post. Those were just examples of how some tests might be done. I am not a teacher but I would guess that mixing it up is a good idea. Maybe doing multiple choice for a few assignments, doing open answers for some other, oral for a few, and so on and so forth. Different subjects might need different types of tests as well. Your grade should be based on multiple assignments anyway, so even if one does not play to your strength you should have the opportunity to show your knowledge in other ones.

 

If the only way to show your knowledge happens to be a way that allows for cheating, like doing things out of sight from a teacher or when you got access to the Internet, then maybe you don't deserve a passing grade. And just so you don't misunderstand me, when I write "you" I don't necessarily mean you, the person calling themself Mihle on LTT. I am using "you" as a stand in for a hypothetical student who would object to different types of assignments because they feel like they wouldn't do well at them.

As someone who has spent time in the classroom (early education and a little bit of secondary), I can vouch first hand that sometimes we throw the baby out with the bath water.  There are so many ways to educate, test and evaluate that quite often the students real needs are missed and they are given either a free pass or a unfair fail.  There is something to be said for making all students prove themselves in a variety of ways, those who are poor with written language will suffer the written components but they will excel in other area's (e.g audio/visual assessments).  It's not just special needs kids who suffer from a lot of the hoohar surrounding appropriate pedagogy.

[Mihle]

4 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

problem with that is someone who's not good at writing (grammatically,  not stories) won't be good at reading,  they both go kinda hand in hand.

 

 

When I think about learning handwriting, I am thinking about actually writing, and how nice it looks and how fast it is, not grammar. Grammar is a seperate thing you also use when writing on PCs.

 

To me, hand writing and PC writing is just as important as the other.

[yian88]

I think those who produce such AI should also provide a software version that can identify its own work in order for this software to not be used where its not meant to.

[Kisai]

2 hours ago, yian88 said:

I think those who produce such AI should also provide a software version that can identify its own work in order for this software to not be used where its not meant to.

Why bother when it's a moving target? The developer might not even be aware of it without watermarking. Visual and Audio is not that hard to "watermark" but that can only be done after inference. Text on the other hand can only be done in the laziest method (eg affixing "This is a ChatGPT built on YYYYMMDD" message between every prompt.) Images can include steganographic watermarks that are impossible to remove and are only "destroyed" by making significant changes to the image.

 

But even then, there are limitations to this. ChatGPT has a certain kind of character to it that makes it easy to identify if you've been using it. But your average person likely will only pick up on it because of the incoherant shaggy-dog story it will write if there is not enough information in the prompt.

 

This is a chatbot connected to a Vtuber application. There is -no- connection between it playing OSU or minecraft and it "talking"

https://www.vice.com/en/article/pkg98v/this-virtual-twitch-streamer-is-controlled-entirely-by-ai

The channel itself is https://www.twitch.tv/vedal987 , when it's live, it tends to grow by 3000 follows. PER DAY. It's only been live since December 2022, 19 days ago. That's maybe not as impressive as a hololive launch, but it's certainly far more than 99% of vtuber debuts.

 

Unlike, straight ChatGPT (which who knows if it's using it or not) a more typical "chatbot" has to retain some state in order for it to be useful. Otherwise it will just operate with goldfish memory. If you sit there and watch it, it just rattles off incoherent thing one after the other, but you can tell it's been trained to have some kind of "identity", and thus the things it says, when asked about itself are more coherant than when asked about general information.

 

But there is nothing stopping someone from making their own Neuro-Sama. All the tools to do so, including the OSU training, and multiple ones for Minecraft are out there. The only wildcard here is what the chatbot knowledge was "trained".

 

Who knows, maybe there will be a point in time that asking something like Neuro-sama to do their homework for some twitch bits might be possible. Stupid use of AI, but yes, I can see that happening.