This is FINALLY Getting Easier... Linux Challenge Part 3

[Olgyd]

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

Oh boy, the screenshotting part. I'd like to say a word about that and how absolutely idiotic it is in Linux. Manjaro at least. You know how PRTSCR works in Windows? You hit it and it grabs whole screen and stores it in clipboard as raw image. Or you press Alt+PrtScr and only capture active window, open ANY image editor and use Ctrl+V or paste the image and that's it.

 

Well, none of that shit works in Linux. You need to use tools and my god so many of them are absolutely bugged.

I think it's a DE thing. On Manjaro Cinnamon I press PRTSCR and I get a screenshot that gets saved to ~/Pictures.

[Nayr438]

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

Or you just hit PrtScr, open Paint.NET and paste it with Ctrl+V. Or snap just Window without hunting its edges using Alt+PrtScr. Been using this for literally 25 years and it takes 5 seconds in total. By that time you only have snipping tool open... Oh and I had snipping tool too in Manjaro. And it was broken.

This is something that can be configured, at least in Spectacle on KDE. For me its Ctrl+PrtScr (Windows) and Meta+PtrScr (Screen). out of the box however Spectacle does not save to the clipboard or have default global shortcuts. I have no doubt however that having Globals and Clipboard enabled as a default would make more sense, especially for new users.

 

31 minutes ago, KaitouX said:

Linus not pressing F5 to refresh was quite surprising, also at this point I would've thought that he had understood the KDE mentality of being able to customize everything and as such going to Dolphin settings would have presented some way to add a refresh button. He seems to really dislike Dolphin and didn't try to tweak it to fit his needs and the default settings seem to really not fit him.

Because believe it or not, a lot of people don't care about the customization options and don't want to fiddle with settings. He expected a experience similar to Windows Explorer and Dolphin didn't give it to him. It doesn't matter if it's better or worse all around, so long as it functions the way he expects out of the box.

[creesch]

17 minutes ago, RollTime said:

Let me introduce the alpha and the omega of screenshot apps: Flameshot.

 

https://flameshot.org

 

 

While I do like flameshot on Linux it doesn't hold a candle to what is on offer on the windows side. For example my personal favourite ShareX but there are a bunch more each has more functionality than flameshot. This was honestly my biggest surprise when I did use Linux for a while about two years ago, how few apps are available in this category. Although it can always be worse, I recently got a macbook for work and while flameshot is made available on MacOS it clearly isn't there yet but besides that the only other app I could find is a $30 app with no trial (something that is way too common in the MacOS ecoystem). 

[Uttamattamakin]

This seems much fairer and based on problems that everyone has.  You know not just hi I'm @LinusTech and my desktop supercomputer isn't working right problems. 

 

You are 100% right about dolphin and the annoying fact that without some work around one cannot do anything as root.  They just need to give it a doom worded warning about possibly bricking your system if you do not know what you are doing and let us get on with it.     That said what you and luke experienced is pretty much the way Linux printing is now IF you have a good quality laser printer that has a postscript interpreter.  Most printers without a post script interpreter will also work now and almost every printer supports some flavor of Linux.  Especially since the underlying technology used in Linux is the same as in OSX.  

For a long time printing in linux was ass.  So many printers of the late 90's and early 00's were Windows specific.  They had hardware that needed a windows driver and your CPU to make the hardware work... the printer did not have the brains to be a printer without it... at all.  If someone had a Win printer or Win modem (or Win Wifi NIC) one was just SOL. 

[illuanonx]

24 minutes ago, HSF3232 said:

In all fairness, there should have been a prompt that appeared after a couple of seconds. At least when I use Linux, that did happen. I have no ideas what's up with Manjaro for it to not appear. I did see the auto-refresh, but that's not as clear.

There is, but Linus for some reason is good to hide things. I have used Manjaro for +2 years and I do not have Linus skill-set of messing up

Its a shame, because it does not reflect the general use of Linux and is kinda gatekeeping. If Linus want more to use Linux, its not the way to go.

[Olgyd]

8 minutes ago, RollTime said:

please god put some linebreaks in here.

 

Also, I don’t know what you’re smoking, but just because you’ve been using a shitty workflow for years doesn’t mean it’s good. What happens if you take a screenshot and then copy some text before you can paste it? Image is gone.
 

You mentioned how using a “tool” is bad as opposed to… I guess built in functionality? But paint is a tool, and crappy one at that. Let me introduce the alpha and the omega of screenshot apps: Flameshot.

 

https://flameshot.org

 

You can assign shortcuts for capture window, capture screen, and capture region. From there a menu shows up *around the screenshot* that lets you edit the image, add text or censor, and then choose what to do with it. You can save it, copy to clipboard, or even upload to Imgur in one click. No mess, no fuss. Integrated and slick GUI, yet very powerful.
 

Windows’ screenshot management was so bad not even Windows uses it anymore. You deserve better.

You should join him/her in whatever they're smoking because you need to calm down.

 

The issue isn't over using tools itself, it's in how some are set up. Can't recall which DE it was (think it was XFCE), but when you pressed PrtScr it just launched the screenshot app. If what you're trying to screenshot isn't static, well tough.

[shadow_ray]

I love how Luke flexed his muscles by opening top in the terminal. Not even htop, he went with the monochrome and basic.

[RejZoR]

54 minutes ago, Nayr438 said:

This is something that can be configured, at least in Spectacle on KDE. For me its Ctrl+PrtScr (Windows) and Meta+PtrScr (Screen). out of the box however Spectacle does not save to the clipboard or have default global shortcuts. I have no doubt however that having Globals and Clipboard enabled as a default would make more sense, especially for new users.

 

Because believe it or not, a lot of people don't care about the customization options and don't want to fiddle with settings. He expected a experience similar to Windows Explorer and Dolphin didn't give it to him. It doesn't matter if it's better or worse all around, so long as it functions the way he expects out of the box.

At the time, it didn't work at all in Spectacle exactly. Apparently it was fixed after my complaint at Manjaro forums.

[Ultraforce]

1 hour ago, DrSparklegasm said:

 Well, in my opinion manjaro or other arch-based ones are advanced. So I'd rather see Linus do an evaluation of Pop or Ubuntu, because I think some of the nitty gritty stuff would be gone.

 

Also would be great if maybe they do this again in 6 months to a year to see what changes are made. Thats how my linux journey went. Use it, get frustrated, come back much later with more experience and stay for longer. It really is, though, dependent on how willing you are to get your hands dirty.

 

I believe on WAN there's a clip which mentions he felt most of his issues weren't Manjaro/Arch specific and part of why he ended up choosing it for the back-up was finding out that Steam O.S. is apparently going to be Arch based and that he would be curious to try out again after steam OS is available but that he'll appreciate the time till then as his kids are happier with him on Windows as it helps him set up stuff for their minecraft playing better.

[Ultraforce]

3 minutes ago, HSF3232 said:

Actually - unless you're having to deal with bedrock - Minecraft Java edition works fairly well on Linux. Just pointing out there.

He bought Minecraft Dungeons I guess and got it through the microsoft launcher so it wouldn't go through proton.

[Gimmick21]

Linus' screen is simply to large to notice the info-screens 

 

Some desktops open new dialogs for every action, others collect them in a notification menu, some don't give you any feedback if you press print, others flash the screen and create files... other others open a default program with the taken screenshot...

 

All of that isn't realy worth talking about. Pros, cons, taste, how do you prefer to sort your windows...

 

For me the default desktop-working-experience with most desktop-managers in Linux is better than the Win-desktop experience.

System76 (Pop_OS) is event working on another DM where they want to combine some good things... we will see.

 

 

[linkboy]

I definitely get the complaints with Dolphin.

 

I tried to run Linux back in 2019 and tried to go with Kubuntu (I tend to stick with Debian based distros since I that's what I know) and Dolphin was a huge thing I hated about it (Discover is another one).

 

I always hated the transfer window being moved to the notification tray instead of staying in the window.

 

I like that Cinnamon brings up a pop-up window showing the copy progress.

[Spindel]

They have a point about printing, why does Windows require you to jump trough hoops to be able to use a network printer?

 

 

[KaratekHD]

There are a few things I'd like to address:

1. Dolphin has a refresh button. You can either use F5 to get it or select it under the "View" Option in then menu bar (if activated). Since it's a KDE app after all, I'm pretty sure you can also add a button for it to the toolbar.

2. I agree with the complain about not being able to run dolphin as root. It's something we have a patch for in openSUSE, but it's also something a lot of KDE devs criticize us for having it. I still think it's good to have it though.

If I remember correctly, unpatched Dolphin just does not start if you try to force it to run as root by e.g. using 

xdg-su dolphin

3. About that community thing near the end of the video: Yes, there are toxic people. But toxic people are something you have in every Community, you can't do anything about it. I think we can all agree that we would be better of without those people, but in a lot of cases it's nearly impossible to do anything about it. 

What does help however is to show that we can do better. I received a lot of nice comments e.g. on the openSUSE Subreddit, people that messaged me and thanked me for helping them solve a problem or for my contributions. 

I am an openSUSE Member ("openSUSE Members" are community members who have provided continued and substantial contributions to the openSUSE project and are given voting rights and the ability to run for the openSUSE board. , see https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Members ) and the community really is the top thing in openSUSE for me. It's a nice environment, I made good friends in the project and we learn from each other. For me, what got me into being part of it was joining the openSUSE Bar, which is a Video Chatroom where both Users and contributors just hang out and talk about things, both Linux related and off-topic. Being able to do this really helps to feel in place in a community.

[n0stalghia]

4 hours ago, r821e228 said:

No way dude, I don't think it falls under the understandable category - They're so capable and skilled on software (Linus mounting servers and stuff, Luke is their coder I believe?) -- It's like being able to run without being able to walk -- Anyway, I just needed to vent that haha

I'm a coder too, and if Windows didn't have the "right click on a font file -> press "install font" feature", I would have no idea how to install fonts on Windows. Like, at all. I'm not even sure what the name of that particular utility would be, I'd probably try going to control panel or putting "add font" into Windows search.

 

If you think coding teaches you how to install fonts for some reason, you have skewed impressions of coding

 

 

[Arika]

Taking screenshots has been one of the stupidest little things for me.

If i press print screen, i don't want to open an app to manage it i don't want it to save as a picture somewhere in my pictures folder, i just want it in my clipboard only.

 

i tried 4 different screenshot apps and none of them were just "press prtsc and it's saved to the clipboard" something always had to pop up.

 

And that's when it decides to capture my actual screen state and not some previous version. If i have Full Screen selected in Spectacle there is a 1 in 4 chance of it just screenshotting a random screen state from the last 24 hours.

[descendency]

I love watching these videos and then going into the comment sections. The longer this series goes on, the more the linux gatekeeping and toxic users come out. If this series was a full year, the final comment sections would be unreadable by anyone without a neckbeard. 

[gudvinr]

1 hour ago, Arika S said:

And that's when it decides to capture my actual screen state and not some previous version. If i have Full Screen selected in Spectacle there is a 1 in 4 chance of it just screenshotting a random screen state from the last 24 hours.

That sound really weird because there's zero chance that spectacle somehow captures screen 24/7 and suddenly spits out whatever you had at the time. This is definitely not that case. There probably is some explanation but must certainly it isn't what's happening.

 

1 hour ago, Arika S said:

Taking screenshots has been one of the stupidest little things for me.

If i press print screen, i don't want to open an app to manage it i don't want it to save as a picture somewhere in my pictures folder, i just want it in my clipboard only.

Spectacle can do all of that together and separately. Screenshoting in linux is quite handy compared to windows. You can screenshot window and screen areas in addition to fullscreen capture. You can save or not save files, you can enable or disable copy to clipboard.

[Arika]

2 hours ago, gudvinr said:

That sound really weird because there's zero chance that spectacle somehow captures screen 24/7 and suddenly spits out whatever you had at the time. This is definitely not that case. There probably is some explanation but must certainly it isn't what's happening.

Well there's not a zero change, and it IS the case, because it's literally happening.

 

infact here's someone else that had a similar issue

And sorry, but turning VSync off is not a solution, i shouldn't have to deal with screen tearing on the desktop, websites, videos, etc just to get something as simple as a screenshot in the current state it is when i press the button...

[Gork]

I'm just sitting here er eeer eee. Because way back in the day I daildrove linux on a Thinkpad, that had something called a PCMCIA slot, that's old. Sufficed to say: I didn't know anything. Work gave me the laptop and I was told to try it with "anything other than windows", basically they wanted to litnus test just how compatible, warts and all, that specific laptop line was. I went through redhat, then slackware and then mandrake. and manually set up a keyboard. All sans the 999  advantages Luke and Linus have. getting even that card to work was hit and mis and just a lot of headaches and just jank. See where it says mandrake? that was my laptops desktop for a long time. 

https://opensource.com/article/16/12/yearbook-linux-test-driving-distros

 

My point is: I have no idea what these two are doing to make a lot of the stuff their doing so hard so far.  Cinimon can do double click font install (did as of 2018 IIRC). We're somewhat passed the point of Ubuntu's rep as kabooming.

What did they do their poor penguins?

KDE when it went to the plasma system and latter became a huge hodge podge of a mess, which is why gnome Unity is so popular (unity as in Coninical's project not the 3D engine ). 

[Gork]

9 hours ago, J-from-Nucleon said:

Can't wait for another 12-20 pages on this thread /s (I haven't even seen the video yet...)

lol only? oooh just wait till tonight when the viewers ask him wtf is on? 

[finest feck fips]

10 hours ago, J-from-Nucleon said:

Can't wait for another 12-20 pages on this thread /s (I haven't even seen the video yet...)

I won't let you down, baby!

 

but actually I'm too tired to write out what I think right now. I will say, though, that there was a lot to like about this video, and that it was cute how competitive and excited Linus was about his tasks. That was very enjoyable in the video

[finest feck fips]

2 hours ago, Arika S said:

Well there's not a zero change, and it IS the case, because it's literally happening.

 

infact here's someone else that had a similar issue

And sorry, but turning VSync off is not a solution, i shouldn't have to deal with screen tearing on the desktop, websites, videos, etc just to get something as simple as a screenshot in the current state it is when i press the button...

I don't really know anything about graphics, but afaik the only way this can happen is if something is requesting cached data from the GPU and something's out of whack so that what the GPU hands back is from the wrong region of memory where it used to have stored an image of the screen or something like that. The real issue is probably not actually in the screenshotting applications, but in the GPU driver or the way that the compositor is interacting with the GPU driver. This more detailed report of the same issue indicates that the same problem applied to 3 different screen capture applications.

You might be able to work around this by changing the compositing method you have selected (switching OpenGL versions).

If you're affected by this on an Intel iGPU, you might be able to fix it by changing which kernel driver you're using (switching between i915 or i965 or whatever and modesetting), or tweaking the configuration for direct rendering in the Intel driver for Xorg (e.g., by changing your DRI version) or by tweaking other acceleration settings.

[hishnash]

11 hours ago, DrSparklegasm said:

I think those windows update in real time. The issue was the files weren't done being copied or zipped. Anyone else have thoughts on that?

One thing he will be experiencing is the fact that modern file systems (those used by linux and macOS) support full transitional operations so so an app can opt to do things to a file/folder or many files/folder and these changes only aprea to other apps when the transition finishes. This is a really powerful features I have sen people complaining on macOS that they can interact with a folder until the entire folder has copied over and upset that if they cancel the copy everything within that copy target is removed since the transition is not completed. (not all ways of coping use a transition).

 

On linux, and macOS it is very easy for a dev to ask the OS to inform it if any children of a give folder have changed. This is very low cost (from a system performance perspective). Doing this on windows is hard (due to all those legacy restrictions were 2 apps can't open the same file/folder at the same time... this means retraining a open file/folder might lead to other apps failing as they think the file is open by another app)


However (and this is were I expect Linus had the issue on macOS) you do need a refresh button if your working with a network share!
 

[YellowJersey]

I'd really like to see a followup video to this challenge where they compare the changes that have been made thanks to their feedback. Kind of a "here's how it was before we did the challenge" and "here's how it is after the challenge when devs addressed some of the challenges we faced."