This is FINALLY Getting Easier... Linux Challenge Part 3

[mamamia88]

21 hours ago, finest feck fips said:

Okay, now I have the energy to do this:

 

General thoughts on L&LLCp3:

Lots to love about this video (even though I am, in fact, a Dolphin file manager fanboy )

• excellent tone! feels like the video alternated between a thoughtful mood and a more playful one
• I liked the highly structured format of this video, which helped ensure
  • good pacing (the video actually felt shorter to me than some previous videos, even though it was quite a bit longer— that's great!)
  • lots of opportunities for small comparisons
  • more equal screen time between Linus and Luke
  • the video felt like a dialogue with two voices
  • the video felt like a (friendly, casual) competition
• it's nice (and accurate) in how it shows that even just 2-3 weeks of acclimation can make a big difference in how it feels to use a system
• the time limit seems like it was a great idea! I think it was a fair constraint and it made the competition more fun. Based on their results, maybe a 10-minute timer would have been okay too
• loved how intense Linus got about his wins and losses on each task. Very cute, very fun to watch
• the fact that they were on two different desktop environments with two different heritages did a good job of showing how desktop experiences on Linux can be both similar and different from one another

Some thoughts about their experiences and the issues they encountered:

• the Ark and Dolphin integration bug with drag-and-drop is a first-class bug; it would have been fair for Linus to be much more harsh on it. Ark and Dolphin are both major, mainstream KDE applications. Drag-and-drop between applications from the same DE should be flawless, and that bug is unacceptable, even though it seems like a minor nit.
• I really like the default Dolphin/KDE behavior of collecting status information and success reports for long-running jobs in the system tray. But clearly this kind of setup sucks with the standard panel layout when you have a very large, high res monitor. While the jobs are still running, there should be an indicator in Dolphin, just like there's an in-app indicator in Gnome's Nautilus. Maybe when the app finishes copying or whatever, then it can direct you toward the notifications log with an animation, as well.
• Imo the shortcut creation task was not well-defined. Symlinks aren't really shortcuts; shortcuts are just text files that encode some metadata, but symlinks are implemented at the filesystem level and are transparent to applications. And Windows actually does have symlinks— even though they're still less used than shortcuts, NTFS got symlink (junction) support when Windows Vista came out. Moreover ‘shortcut’ on Windows can also be used to refer to application shortcuts, which have a direct equivalent on Linux in the form of XDG .desktop files.
  • if you're on KDE Plasma like Linus is, you can symlink files by dragging and dropping them. Dolphin will ask you whether you want to move, copy, or link the file when you drop it.
  • Using shift or control while dragging and dropping to cause the drag and drop to copy or link rather than moving files is actually pretty standard. It works that way on a bunch of Linux desktops, as well as macOS. Idk about Windows but I wouldn't be surprised if something similar works there as well.
• The de facto required but nominally unsupported status of the AUR is dumb as hell, and it'll never change. It's a problem that, officially, Arch developers just dismiss as non-existent. Most Arch hiccups are intentionally considered ‘your problem’ as a user, by the community. There are reasons for this (related to Arch's keep-it-simple-stupid design philosophy), but frankly I think they're stupid reasons.
• ‘Windows brain’ continues to cause problems for both Luke and Linus, namely the habit of going to third-party (vendor, publisher, or developer) websites to look for downloads and installation instructions as a first instinct rather than a line of last resort. The experience is pretty much always better integrated and more convenient when you go through your distribution's channels instead, and only look to outside sources of downloads or instructions when something is unavailable or you've tried the distro default and realize that you need something custom.
  • Personally, I never install anything by going to the developer/vendor/publisher website. If it's not in my distro's repos I either don't use it or I package it myself. Once you get really used to how nice it is to manage everything on your computer with only one tool, looking all over the web for downloads and instructions feels really fucking gross, and per-app auto-updaters seem rude and misbehaved.
• I agree with Linus that Spectacle is really nice. It's nicer than what's available by default on macOS and Windows. KDE has also had something like this much, much longer than the Windows Snipping Tool has existed; before Spectacle, KDE had KSnapshot since the late 90s. (Spectacle is basically a rewrite/clone of KSnapshot)

There's a very good reason the AUR isn't default in arch and never will be. It's called the Arch User Repository. It's all user submitted, potentially malicious code, and the arch team can't verify it won't mess something up. Stuff in the official repos you can be 99% certain it's gonna work as intended cause it's been vouched for. Hell it might even fail to build which is a bad experience.  It's just bonus stuff that you can install if you can't find it in the repos and are willing to take the risk. 

[Bramimond]

4 minutes ago, mamamia88 said:

Imagine once game developers start targeting linux by default. That's amazing. 

If they are also selling physical copies that work out of the box without needing an Internet connection, I might even buy a PC game again. 

[mamamia88]

21 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

As a long time linux user maybe a poweruser I totally feel that expecting the average joe user to access the command line is the most asinine thing that the developers do.  What Linux needs is not a paid distro what it needs is a common desktop environment.  Linux needs one good enough desktop   a GED.  This GED would combine the advantages of Gnome and KDE and focus on being light and not using a lot of resources but could be expanded on with optional plugins to customize it.  This would allow for a unified graphical user experience which can be compared to Windows or Mac. 

Part of the reason that so many Linux How To's revert to the command line is because BASH is common to all of Linux.  It is the one set of instructions that will always work in exactly the same way for a given family of linux distributions (Fedora, Debian/Ubuntu/ Arch) 

 

This all leads to

This is very true. Part of it is Windows brain and part of it IMHO is Linux is a Windows Power user but a Linux NO0O00ooBb.    So his first approach with Pop OS "Yes do as I say" ... nuke my desktop environment is an example of that.  In windows an install could never mean having to remove conflicting dependencies like the desktop environment.  

With Linux it is better to treat installing software on it like installing an app in OSX or Android.  Just going to the package manager and relying on it has been the way to go for decades.  Even in the late 90's Redhat package manager RPM was the way to go for most people.   Installing via a command line is for someone who wants to develop the code.  

Installing software via cli is often just easier. I want discord I type pacman -S discord and i'm done in 5 seconds. The gui is for when I don't know what the name of something i'm looking for or searching by category. You don't need to be a developer to learn simple commands that just generally speed up the task at hand. And yes you can't accidentally install the desktop on windows. But, the fact pop os had 3 fail safes to prevent it from happening (already been patched btw) is amazing. As a noob friendly distro it had a bug that completely messed up his system. But, it had 3 warnings prior not to do it and the bug wasn't even reported yet. Within a week the bug no longer exists and the ability to mess up your system even intentionally has been patched out. Typing "yes do as i say" feels to me like the equivalent of getting a flat tire, putting on your spare, driving to the tire store and then while waiting for the tire to be replaced the mechanic walks into the waiting room and says "ok i'll replace your tire but, first i need to remove the entire engine and afterward you'll be left with very minimal functionality of your car. please sign this contract that says you understand what i'm telling you if you wish to proceed" you'd be hesitant to sign it write? How much more user friendly does an os have to get that even when a bug isn't reported it's still really damn hard to mess up?

[mamamia88]

Alright off my high horse now.

[finest feck fips]

3 hours ago, RanAwaySuccessfully said:

But I still believe the better approach to that is for Dolphin to have an option to prompt the user if they want to go into "sudo" mode and simply use root under the hood, so the whole GUI is still running under the regular user but behind the scenes it is using root to access and modify system folders and files as requested.

Agreed. This is the main upstream bug tracking support for this. The merge request tracking the main things needed to support it is here. I think it's progressing (slowly) but it's kind of in code review hell.

Linus isn't right that he should just run Dolphin as root (or that he should be installing plugins by dropping shared object files in /usr) but he is 100% right that a good file manager should support elevating privileges in some (secure and narrower but) usable way.

[maplepants]

3 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Lol, it's just bunch of unnecessary steps. PRTSCR is straight raw desktop snapshot into ANY program by pasting it with standard Ctrl+V. What's so complicated about that? Especially when I need to draw arrows and add extra text on stuff most of the time to describe bugs and issues or the steps for which you need to use editor anyway.

I like this behaviour as a default too, but I can see how somebody coming from Windows would be thrown off. 

 

Where I work, they actually install greenshot on all Windows machines and map it to "PrintScr". It's great because it gives Windows users something as powerful as the macOS screenshot and recording tool or Screenshot on elementaryOS. 

[Rex Hite]

I remember Macolytes raving about the power of the CLI when Apple introduced OSX. Even though it was previously counter to the Mac's ethos. There's no accounting for acolytes.

I don;'t type well. Nothing good happens in a CLI  unless there are no typos. Certainly not a selling point for me.

[mamamia88]

7 hours ago, Rex Hite said:

I remember Macolytes raving about the power of the CLI when Apple introduced OSX. Even though it was previously counter to the Mac's ethos. There's no accounting for acolytes.

I don;'t type well. Nothing good happens in a CLI  unless there are no typos. Certainly not a selling point for me.

It just won't run usually if there are typos

[Uttamattamakin]

12 hours ago, mamamia88 said:

Installing software via cli is often just easier. I want discord I type pacman -S discord and i'm done in 5 seconds. The gui is for when I don't know what the name of something i'm looking for or searching by category.

Having a more unified and robust GUI for Linux would not stop you from doing that.  Just like having app stores now does not stop you.  IJS people Like Linus and even myself do not need to be messing with that on a normal basis.    Bear in mind I use the command line to install things which really CANNOT be installed from an app store like the latest CUDA toolkit, Anaconda Python, Mathematica or other science specific tools in which I do code.  

The reason I take this conservative approach is because I do critical work on which my very livelihood depends.  Destabilizing my computer is not an option. 

 

Quote

Typing "yes do as i say" feels to me like the equivalent of getting a flat tire, putting on your spare, driving to the tire store and then while waiting for the tire to be replaced the mechanic walks into the waiting room and says "ok i'll replace your tire but, 

I totally agree with this.  Linus needed to approach Linux with more humility and just not install steam at that point.    One of the major things that supposedly would've done the trick is if he had done sudo apt update   and then upgraded all the packages then installed steam.   He seems to have skipped that part.    Running all available updates is a part of that process that people on the internet who are "I can just type in pacman/apt/rpm whatever so fast etc etc.  

When you endeavor to teach a person something you need to explain every teeny, tiny, little step to them to the point that they hate you and think you are "condescending" or whatever.  The truth is Linus is a NO0O0b at this.  On the Dunning Kreuger graph, of this he was at the area where confidence is high but knowledge is low.    This is part of the learning curve for EVERYONE.  I was there with Linux.  I will be there with other things I learn, to some extent.   That said with this latest video he seems to be over that peak and on his way to really learning how Linux works.  

He needs to get past the Windows brain, think of Linux as more like ... Desktop Android ... and just install things from the app store like a normal person who wants to do work with their computer instead of working on their computer. 

[linkboy]

37 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

I totally agree with this.  Linus needed to approach Linux with more humility and just not install steam at that point.    One of the major things that supposedly would've done the trick is if he had done sudo apt update   and then upgraded all the packages then installed steam.   He seems to have skipped that part.    Running all available updates is a part of that process that people on the internet who are "I can just type in pacman/apt/rpm whatever so fast etc etc. 

 

Here's one of the first links you get when you search in Google "Install Steam pop os"

 

Directly from System76

 

It tells you to install it from Pop! Shop, but as we found out at the time, that was broken.

 

The next step is to use the command line and they don't tell you the sudo apt update command, just to sudo apt install steam after you search for it using sudo apt search steam.

 

I don't know if that's the guide Linus used, but that's directly from the distributor of the OS, and would directly lead the the terminal doing what it did.

 

sudo apt update would have solved the issue as the bug had already been patched, but the ISO hadn't been updated yet. Even with that said, the developer of the OS isn't recommending the user do a sudo apt update on their own guide before installing Steam.

 

[finest feck fips]

Alright, so I just actually tried reproducing Linus' issue with dragging and dropping from Ark to Dolphin, and uh, it's actually much more minor than I thought. I assumed Linus' assessment (‘these apps aren't properly integrated, so drag-and-drop doesn't work’) of the issue was accurate, since I don't really use drag-and-drop and thus I wouldn't really know offhand. Well, it wasn't. lol. As with his account of ‘pacman trying to install a dependency for APT, ad infinitum’, Linus made up an explanation that seemed plausible to him but doesn't have any bearing on the reality.

Dragging and dropping files from Ark to specific subfolders that are visible in an open folder in Dolphin works fine. The actual mouse cursor has to go over the folder (icon or name) you want to put the files into, and when it does, the folder icon will glow. If you then release the mouse button, the files are extracted into that glowing subfolder.

 

Linus had his mouse cursor positioned on top of the archived filenames so that he couldn't actually see any of those UI elements, and presumably didn't realize that he failed to line the cursor up over the folder.

You also have to line up the cursor over the actual folder name, not just anywhere in the row associated with the folder. Maybe that confused him? Idk how else one is supposed to be able to drop files into the open folder if it doesn't behave that way, though.

So drag-and-drop isn't that broken. Linus just didn't know he was failing to actually mouse over the folder. If possible, Ark should probably not show the full list of filenames when you drag, or render it transparent or something. But it's not nearly as bad as I thought it was.

I shoulda known better than to think Linus' self-description of the UX issue he encountered was accurate just because it was with a GUI rather than a terminal.

[romulasry]

I don't know why Linus the creator of the Linux kernel wouldn't use Fedora, see:

 

[finest feck fips]

I also noticed that before Linus made a snarky remark about the UI he chose to use to create a shortcut (symbolic link), he spent a few seconds on camera staring at the drag-and-drop UI for doing the exact same thing:

 

 

Notice the menu entry that clearly says ‘Link Here’, and also tells him the keyboard shortcut he could use to do the same thing while bypassing the menu.

This is what I mean about Linus being whiny just because he doesn't know what he's doing at the computer and he's not used to what that feels like. Notice that he feels free to be sarcastic (‘Yes, this is better. Ha-ha’) or snarky (‘newsflash!’) when he feels annoyed, even when the source of his annoyance is ultimately his own mistake.

[finest feck fips]

On 12/4/2021 at 12:55 PM, Nayr438 said:

This is something that can be configured, at least in Spectacle on KDE. For me its Ctrl+PrtScr (Windows) and Meta+PtrScr (Screen). out of the box however Spectacle does not save to the clipboard or have default global shortcuts.

Spectacle does have defaults for this. You can get them back, if you want, by opening Spectacle and clicking Configure, then going to the Shortcuts section, and clicking the button that says Defaults. The defaults are these:

  

On 12/4/2021 at 3:57 PM, Arika S said:

i tried 4 different screenshot apps and none of them were just "press prtsc and it's saved to the clipboard" something always had to pop up.

Spectacle actually supports this, too. Just bind the key combination you want to

 

spectacle --background --copy-image

which will just copy the screenshot to your clipboard, and produce a desktop notification indicating that such has been done.

If you don't want the notification, either, you can use

spectacle --background --copy-image --nonotify

 

All of this functionality is fully documented, as well. The option to launch via the command line for that purpose is described in the Spectacle Handbook, which you can access by clicking the button that says ‘Help’ in the GUI, or by pressing the standard F1 key while the app is open. Quote (emphasis mine):

Quote

Spectacle can be started from the command-line. Spectacle has an extensive set of command-line options, including a background mode which can be used to script the capture of screenshots without showing the GUI or requiring user interaction.

 

To start Spectacle from the command prompt, type in:

spectacle &

 

To view the full list of command-line options and their explanation, type in:

spectacle --help

For the convenience of any readers, here is the full output of spectacle --help:

$ spectacle --help                                                                                                       
Usage: spectacle [options]
KDE Screenshot Utility

Options:
  -h, --help                 Displays help on commandline options.
  --help-all                 Displays help including Qt specific options.
  -v, --version              Displays version information.
  --author                   Show author information.
  --license                  Show license information.
  --desktopfile <file name>  The base file name of the desktop entry for this
                             application.
  -f, --fullscreen           Capture the entire desktop (default)
  -m, --current              Capture the current monitor
  -a, --activewindow         Capture the active window
  -u, --windowundercursor    Capture the window currently under the cursor,
                             including parents of pop-up menus
  -t, --transientonly        Capture the window currently under the cursor,
                             excluding parents of pop-up menus
  -r, --region               Capture a rectangular region of the screen
  -g, --gui                  Start in GUI mode (default)
  -b, --background           Take a screenshot and exit without showing the GUI
  -s, --dbus                 Start in DBus-Activation mode
  -n, --nonotify             In background mode, do not pop up a notification
                             when the screenshot is taken
  -o, --output <fileName>    In background mode, save image to specified file
  -d, --delay <delayMsec>    In background mode, delay before taking the shot
                             (in milliseconds)
  -c, --copy-image           In background mode, copy screenshot image to
                             clipboard
  -C, --copy-path            In background mode, copy screenshot file path to
                             clipboard
  -w, --onclick              Wait for a click before taking screenshot.
                             Invalidates delay
  -i, --new-instance         Starts a new GUI instance of spectacle without
                             registering to DBus
  -p, --pointer              In background mode, include pointer in the
                             screenshot
  -e, --no-decoration        In background mode, exclude decorations in the
                             screenshot

 

[GDRRiley]

On 12/4/2021 at 10:10 AM, RejZoR said:

well, none of that shit works in Linux. You need to use tools and my god so many of them are absolutely bugged.

I hit print screen and I get a full screen shot sent right to my photos folder

thats for ubuntu 20 LTS

 

it takes me way longer on windows to open a tool. yeah its not as stick as OSX where you get to pick full screen or a section but good enough

[finest feck fips]

14 minutes ago, GDRRiley said:

I hit print screen and I get a full screen shot sent right to my photos folder

thats for ubuntu 20 LTS

 

it takes me way longer on windows to open a tool. yeah its not as stick as OSX where you get to pick full screen or a section but good enough

If you want a more featureful replacement for the default screenshot program on Ubuntu that is based on the same toolkit/environment, check out Shutter.

If you're okay with the default app, but prefer the windows-y behavior of copying to the clipboard rather than creating a file, you can hold the control key when you press Print.

 

Aside: KDE had the screenshotting features macOS added in 2017 or 2018 or whatever for many, many years prior.

[GDRRiley]

57 minutes ago, finest feck fips said:

If you want a more featureful replacement for the default screenshot program on Ubuntu that is based on the same toolkit/environment, check out Shutter.

I almost never screen shoot, its a very rare thing for me

[Olgyd]

4 hours ago, finest feck fips said:

I also noticed that before Linus made a snarky remark about the UI he chose to use to create a shortcut (symbolic link), he spent a few seconds on camera staring at the drag-and-drop UI for doing the exact same thing:

 

 

Notice the menu entry that clearly says ‘Link Here’, and also tells him the keyboard shortcut he could use to do the same thing while bypassing the menu.

This is what I mean about Linus being whiny just because he doesn't know what he's doing at the computer and he's not used to what that feels like. Notice that he feels free to be sarcastic (‘Yes, this is better. Ha-ha’) or snarky (‘newsflash!’) when he feels annoyed, even when the source of his annoyance is ultimately his own mistake.

If that comes off as whiny to you, I highly suggest you don't visit any part of the British commonwealth.

 

For anyone interested, the issue is that (again) Windows and KDE has different behaviour. On Windows, Left-click-and-drag moves the file, Right-click-and-drag prompts for move/copy/link. On KDE, Left-click-and-drag triggers the move/copy/link menu and Right-click-and-drag triggers the file actions context menu (same as RMB).

[Olgyd]

38 minutes ago, HSF3232 said:

I'm British too, actually. Deadpan sarcasm is just how we operate. 

[Uttamattamakin]

10 hours ago, linkboy said:

 

Here's one of the first links you get when you search in Google "Install Steam pop os"

 

Directly from System76

 

It tells you to install it from Pop! Shop, but as we found out at the time, that was broken.

 

The next step is to use the command line and they don't tell you the sudo apt update command, just to sudo apt install steam after you search for it using sudo apt search steam.

 

That just means that the people who maintain POP OS don't understand how to explain things.  Explaining things is itself a skill. 

[linkboy]

49 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

That just means that the people who maintain POP OS don't understand how to explain things.  Explaining things is itself a skill. 

Definitely. 

 

I don't know if that's the tutorial Linus used to try install Steam, but it's a pretty glaring omission by a company that puts out a distribution. 

[DANK_AS_gay]

On 12/4/2021 at 1:31 PM, creesch said:

Also not as good on MacOs is what I recently discovered

I have found MacOS's screenshot function to be extremely easy to use, and quick. The only downside is not being able to resize the screenshot window before taking it, then having to take another one in order to get everything. On Windows it was really difficult, especially since I was running on an AMD A9-XXXX piece of sh!t. I haven't tried linux, and Linus's issues have further convinced me that I am not ever going to try it. (even on Chromebooks it is difficult to manage)

[finest feck fips]

12 hours ago, linkboy said:

Here's one of the first links you get when you search in Google "Install Steam pop os"

 

Directly from System76

 

It tells you to install it from Pop! Shop, but as we found out at the time, that was broken.

 

The next step is to use the command line

That's not a ‘next step’, that's one of two ways the article describes for doing the same thing. The article is not a list of steps.

 

2 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

That just means that the people who maintain POP OS don't understand how to explain things.  Explaining things is itself a skill.

Again, using the command line is not a ‘next step’ ‘after’ trying installation through the GUI. It's just an alternative method.

The same instructions also say (and have always said, since before the LTT Linux Challenge) the following:

Quote

IMPORTANT NOTE: Be very careful when using sudo with ANY Command. It can make system wide changes so be sure to read everything before entering 'Y'.

Guess what Linus didn't do?

The error message Linus saw in the first video should have been better emphasized and stood out more from the other text, and the consent message he was required to type should have been more specific. That's real, that's true.

But the half-baked excuses I keep seeing for his mistake seriously make me less sympathetic the more I hear them.

[LettuceKnow]

Off-topic question, anybody knows the name of the little blue boy on the desk when Luke is talking?

 

 

Where can I find him 

 

 

[05032-Mendicant-Bias]

18 hours ago, finest feck fips said:

Guess what Linus didn't do?

It was so much Linus' fault that the behaviour of apt was changed to make it harder for a user to fall into the same pitfall, good showing for the developers.

 

Honestly, if I read and reserched every package blurted by apt every time I try to install something, I would never get anything done.