This is NOT going Well… Linux Gaming Challenge Pt.2

[Gork]

I'd be genuinely curius what his rants would soundlike if he was running gentoo. I'm imaginning him all like: soo had to bootstrap,, then get...what on earth? no gui or anything? how is the average user expected to...and you are expected to learn more about tunnel bear!

'So first I downloaded the internet...then typed gcc --all and that took forever just to type in emerge --install kernel...and wait...who does this!'

 

[finest feck fips]

2 minutes ago, Gimmick21 said:

Spoiler

The common path is: Reduce it as far as possible and create a simple GUI for that. The results are Android, SteamOS, some smartdevices run Linux,...

If "mainstream = gaming" - the only path is: Do it like everyone does it, when someone wants to push into an established market ->  invest millions of $. (Epic Launcher, steam deck,...)

The GUI of github should fully serve the purpose of working with git(hub). Everything in addition to that, can already be added by the owner, but he has to do so. But that's not a problem of the mentioned repo anymore, since the owner added a terminal-only installation guide and you do not have to download anything manually anymore.

 

I agree that GitHub's user interface should center around Git users. (The issue reporting stuff is nice, and in theory an end user can use that even if they don't really use Git).

But it's also taken on the kind of role that Sourceforge used to, back in the day, as a predominant host of open-source software, including binary releases. Anything they can do to make it better at that (without undermining the main use case for the primary userbase, of course!) could potentially be helpful to a lot of people.

[Gork]

6 minutes ago, finest feck fips said:

I agree that GitHub's user interface should center around Git users. (The issue reporting stuff is nice, and in theory an end user can use that even if they don't really use Git).

But it's also taken on the kind of role that Sourceforge used to, back in the day, as a predominant host of open-source software, including binary releases. Anything they can do to make it better at that (without undermining the main use case for the primary userbase, of course!) could potentially be helpful to a lot of people.

LoL omg Linus(the linux one) and the SVN vs GIT rant. And people say I can get mad and swear like a mofo. I feel tame compared to Linus Torvalds!.

[Gimmick21]

10 minutes ago, finest feck fips said:

I agree that GitHub's user interface should center around Git users. (The issue reporting stuff is nice, and in theory an end user can use that even if they don't really use Git).

But it's also taken on the kind of role that Sourceforge used to, back in the day, as a predominant host of open-source software, including binary releases. Anything they can do to make it better at that (without undermining the main use case for the primary userbase, of course!) could potentially be helpful to a lot of people.

True. Sounds like a job for pre-built Git-Pages-templates to make embedding releases from Git easier.

Or just add a screenshot of the repo-page to the readme with a big arrow pointing to the release-link :D.

[05032-Mendicant-Bias]

Github

Github is meant for developers. No need to add noob proof buttons. The more advanced features like actions, projects and more are very good for what they are, I use them even for my hobby projects. The way github is meant to be used is:

1. copy the snippet of code you need and use a text editor
2. download a zip of the whole repo (even if you need just a file)
3. use git to clone the repo

Github being clunky for noob is on Microsoft (not really, it's very functional for developers) Requiring scripts stored on github for basic Linux functionality is on Linux.

 

Streaming Challenge

Streaming worked a lot better than I thought it would. A few hours and both had most of the streaming up and running. I'm still surprised when functionalities run at all on linux.

Also I love the challenge, is a challenge I remember on the first WAN show Linus and Luke said about the challenge and got comments that using linux wasn't a challenge at all ^^'

It's great that developer want to show their hard and impressive work, I think it's a disservice when Linux is sold as a windows replacement for gaming. it's just setting up users for failure when you tell them "just a click and it works" and they click and it doesn't, sending them to a rabbit hole in stack overflow and github.

 

Fragmentation

Linux is fragmented beyond reason. I wouldn't be surprised if the LTT Linux Challenge spurs the development of more distros that will dilute the efforts of developers even further. Tightening up a project is a long, tedious and thankless task. As a developer I understand why one would rather use their passion for trying a new toy rather than maintaining, merging, consolidating and improving existing solutions. This XKCD comic says it all.

Source

[Lightwreather]

52 minutes ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

Source

I love that xkcd

[Spindel]

Just a question to you linux folk in here.

 

As I’ve stated elsewhere I used to daily drive linux for a couple of years some 15 years ago. What I remembered was that there was a lot of stuff both drivers and some software that you compiled for your set up instead of relying on prepackaged stuff. I want to remember that I did this with both ATI and Nvidia drivers for example. This was a thing for RedHat, Fedora, Debian and Ubuntu that where the distros I tried and Ubuntu being the one I settled on in the end for being the least user unfriendly.

 

This method worked best back then, is this not a thing any more in Linux because it seems that both Linus and Luke has not done this.

[Lightwreather]

20 minutes ago, Spindel said:

This method worked best back then, is this not a thing any more in Linux because it seems that both Linus and Luke has not done this.

If I'm understanding this correctly, ie. Drivers needed to (or worked best) when compiled, then it is still technically a thing, tho it isn't needed rn. It is however needed for nvidia when using custom kernel (eg. Linux-zen) iirc.

That being said I could very well be wrong

[Ashleyyyy]

3 hours ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

Piece of trash might be a bit hyperbolic. As with all systems, it has not aged well, and in the age of appimages, pacman etc, it's idiosyncrasies have become antiquated. Just growing pains of apt. 

i think it's justified. 15 years ago it was ok, now it's just bad. 

[n0stalghia]

9 hours ago, HSF3232 said:

I think he's pushing that angle a little too hard. Like, there are some things I think a normal user wouldn't do that Linus did, or Linus didn't do that a normal user would.

Like what?

[maplepants]

1 hour ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

Github being clunky for noob is on Microsoft (not really, it's very functional for developers) Requiring scripts stored on github for basic Linux functionality is on Linux.

I agree that this is mostly a Linux problem. Linus is right that regular users shouldn't have to use a developer tool like GitHub on Day 2 of their Linux adventure. 

 

The main outcome I see from the challenge so far is that desktop Linux just isn't polished enough for nearly all non-developer users. You just wouldn't see problems like this on day 2 of "I switched from Windows to Mac" or "I switched from Mac to Windows". 

[Stahlmann]

13 hours ago, Ashley MLP Fangirl said:

hold judgement? i'd forgive my grandma who knows nothing about computers for making that mistake, but Linus? it's not like GitHub is Linux only, i refuse to believe that he's never downloaded software from there before. 

I literally only needed github for 1 skyrim mod a few years ago because the modder didn't want to put up with nexusmods's terms. After that i never needed it again and also never before that incident. And i didn't actively avoid it, my problems just never lead me to github. Simple as that. Tbh i didn't even know what github was or that it even existed before that.

 

I'm not going at you directly here but i think this is one more case of some users living in their bubble thinking everyone should know how it works because they use it themself. And that's not just about github.

 

For example i also frequently need workarounds to play some of my games on my ultrawide monitor. But just because of that i don't expect everyone else to also know how to do these workarounds, nor do i expect most people to be able to do some of these things when i just give them a text-based-tutorial like a wiki page or a forum thread.

 

I'm not trying to get into the Linux vs. Windows argument. There was plenty of that on the 1st video's thread.

[Sho2048]

32 minutes ago, n0stalghia said:

Like what?

For starters, while it is quite popular on the forums, I’m pretty pretty sure people still recommend Ubuntu, Fedora or Suse for beginners… Or popping up the terminal without even checking if there is a GUI to download the apps

[Bramimond]

I feel that you will always have a bad time with Linux trying to replicate your Windows workflows.

It's like trying to put a chopstick in each of your hands and complaining that it is now hard to eat. 

 

But then, the entire point was to play Windows games on Linux, so maybe making a fool out of themselves was the intention. Or maybe they just didn't know and were fooled by the SteamPortable into thinking that Linux is cool for Windows gaming now. 

 

Playing Windows games on Linux is kinda like playing Doom on a calculator. It's pretty cool that it even works. Now, you can be a gamer using only Linux. I am. Have been for over a decade. But you'll be playing Linux games and old console games through emulation and maybe the odd Windows game that works without any issues whatsoever. And there's a growing number of those, like Sayonara Umihara Kawase - great game, by the way. But you won't know before trying it out. And if it doesn't work, you're better off dropping the game than to try and make it work. 

 

Yes, if you want to play Playstation games, get a Playstation and if you want to play Windows games, get Windows. You don't complain that Windows doesn't run Playstation games at all, so complaining that Linux is doing a poor job at running Windows games is a little bit unfair. You could at least take a look at the Linux games. Like Enigma or Freedoom. 

[Hilite24]

Only reason I'm still using Windows at home is that I couldn't figure out how to get the FACEIT Anti-cheat to work on Linux or if it even possible

[creesch]

The amount of people that clearly are not aware of their own knowledge level compared to that of people starting out on Linux with a blank slate is interesting to say the least. Someone in the youtube comments who was actually rather self aware put it rather aptly 

 

Quote

Watching these as a full time Linux user makes me realize I'm suffering from "the curse of knowledge". Every time a problem comes up I'm like "oh you can fix it with <insert command>, it's easy!"

 

But I often forget that my troubleshooting skills are way above those of the average user and simply writing a script myself to solve things isn't the way to do it for everyone.

 

All the stuff you do in Linux has been something you at some point had to learn and what many people in this threat consider "basic" knowledge is often already a step above what you can reasonable expect from someone to have. Not to mention that a lot of people also fail to factor in their existing knowledge they had as a starting Linux user. Yes of course things are slightly easier if you already were a developer so know your way around git(hub) and where a bash script is just something in a different language but something you can figure out. That doesn't mean it is the same for everyone who starts using Linux. 

 

To stick to the discussion about github. Well yes, there technically is a download button for repositories but that downloads the entire repository as that is how it is intended to be used. You can also go to a file and then click "raw" which gets you the actual file you can download (I believe you can also right click the raw button and right click from there). But knowing those steps actually does require pre-existing knowledge about how GitHub works and what git in general is. If you are not a developer you will not have that knowledge. 

 

People can argue that there should be a more straightforward download button on GitHub for individual files but that completely ignores the larger issue at play. 

Which is that user scripts hosted on github that require you to fetch those scripts without further instructions aren't the sort of scripts you should want to use in the first place. 

 

I know many people turn there in desperation for stuff like the goXLR and while that isn't unreasonable the sort of scripts like the one Linus came across really are nothing more than a solution hacked together by a developer who decided to share their work with other technically inclined people. If you are lucky that is, often enough they are a mess of hacked together snippets. 

 

These scripts haven't been vetted by any repository maintainer, don't have a large user base who went over them, maybe don't have an update mechanism build in and often don't really get updated at all. The latter two meaning that any user who has no idea what they are doing doesn't have a straightforward way of updating to newer versions of the script (run it again? Might work, might break stuff as the previous version isn't properly cleaned), doesn't get notified about possible updates and when stuff eventually breaks down due to a dependency changing through a distro update they might find that there isn't even an updated solution available. 

 

People often blindly refer these scripts to new users who rightfully (like Linus) get confused but that is really because they should not be used by new users as you should be able to at least look into them and verify what they do. I know many "advanced" linux users who rarely do that either but frankly those are also the sort of people I see distro hopping a ton and barely ever having a stable desktop environment for more than a few months.

Frankly put, even though he benefitted from the user script being made Linus is not the user group that user script was likely targeted at. Which basically means that Linus has a point. If the script is actually be intended to be used by a wider audience it still very much proofs the point as it very much is failing to do so. 

Incidentally the instructions for the installation have since been updated to wget the script from the command line to avoid the issue Linus had. Ironically the script doesn't check for the presence of git which is required as the install script clones the repo. 

 

And once again, people shouldn't need to resort to using random shell scripts from the internet to get their basic stuff working. The people who I see ranting about random executables that can't be vetted are largely missing the point. The point being that to get Windows in a state where you can use it in a stable manner and game on it with the use of all your peripherals doesn't require you to do so for the most case. Yes you might need to download the software from the manufacture of some peripherals but that is not in the same ballpark as downloading a sketchy exe from a random website.  

 

Frankly the only scenario where I think it is acceptable for new users to run shell scripts in is if it is a script that sets up a PPA (assuming a ubuntu based distro) and install through there or if they set up a product that can self update. And even that I would consider edge cases that shouldn't be needed for a good base experience. 

 

If you want a stable experience and to run Linux on more than basic hardware and do more than some browsing and light office work Linux really for a large part is only for developers or the more technically inclined people. That or (like Linus also pointed out) you need to be willing to dive into the technical details, learn about it and accept that initially you might need to reinstall from time to time. Because the Pop!_OS experience Linus had isn't unique either, when you first start out with Linux it is very easy to break things without knowing what it is you did exactly and how to revert it. Certainly with the amount of mixed information out there (another can of worms). Which is why I am also willing to bet that the majority user groups of Linux are basically developers (or something in a related area) or relatively young enthusiasts like students with a lot of time on their hands to mess with their OS and figure it out (who might be developers later on).

 

Which I think is very much a reasonable thing to conclude. Which is why I don't think it is reasonable that many Linux enthousiasts are getting dismissive and overly aggressive when this is pointed out as at the very least it is just a tone deaf reaction to a real situation and at worse is just detrimental to the adoption of Linux in general. Because it frankly puts off people that might be willing to try Linux and actually could have a good experience given the right support. And honestly, saying that Linux is mostly for developers (or people with similar technical backgrounds or interests) isn't a judgement on the amount of amazing work that already has been put into Linux on the desktop. It simply is a reflection on the current state of some aspects of that experience. If most users are technically inclined then naturally you do get documentation more geared towards those users and experiences geared towards those users. If then the goal is to make Linux appeal to a broader audience it is actually productive to be aware of that bias as a pain point in that regard. 

 

And to be fair, there are many many people within the Linux community who are aware of these biases and do amazing work in support roles and making the software experience better in general. So obviously my rambling above isn't aimed at those people

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ashleyyyy]

1 hour ago, Akselmo said:

except Apex Legends. I kinda miss playing it but I don't mind the tradeoff here. If it becomes playable through Proton I will be happy though.

easy anti cheat apparantly.... i looked it up on various sites and that's the only reason it's borked. titanfall, which is basically the same game as apex under the hood does work. 

[Ashleyyyy]

58 minutes ago, Hilite24 said:

Only reason I'm still using Windows at home is that I couldn't figure out how to get the FACEIT Anti-cheat to work on Linux or if it even possible

that'll depend on the devs. there's nothing the linux devs can do to make that work unfortunately. 

[Gimmick21]

16 minutes ago, creesch said:

The amount of people that clearly are not aware of their own knowledge level compared to that of people starting out on Linux with a blank slate is interesting to say the least.

 

Some problems only occure because almost no one is a "blank slate". The challenge is not to learn new things, but to change established knowledge - e.g. "why not download exe?" -> a blank slate does not know what an exe is.

 

[Kroon]

47 minutes ago, Gimmick21 said:

Some problems only occure because almost no one is a "blank slate". The challenge is not to learn new things, but to change established knowledge - e.g. "why not download exe?" -> a blank slate does not know what an exe is.

 

Same thing happens with new versions of Windows.  First most really hate the new features but once they get use to them they love them.

 

Same thing here but in a larger scale.  I'm actually somewhat disappointed on Linus due to this, he should be able to look to the next step.  On the other hand might Linus not be a great candidate for this kind of test due to his heave dispossession vs Windows. 

[Cyberspirit]

11 hours ago, HSF3232 said:

I mean, with how most Windows users are going "Oh LInUX iS A BuGGY Os" or "LiNUX iS NoT USeR FRIendLY", they must assume that Windows is perfect. Except Windows is full of bugs, and there are some design choices that I question as being "user friendly". Hypocrites, the lot of them!

I think most Windows users won't deny that there are many problems with the OS. The thing is, most people rather live with those problems and find a workaround for them instead of having to learn an entire new os from scratch.

[Sho2048]

13 minutes ago, Cyberspirit said:

I think most Windows users won't deny that there are many problems with the OS. The thing is, most people rather live with those problems and find a workaround for them instead of having to learn an entire new os from scratch.

Funnily enough I recently upgraded to Windows 11 and my user suddenly only logged to the terminal instead of explorer.exe. Most solutions on the web were wrong or unhelpful (restore the system or reinstall Windows or recreate the user); turns out there's an obscure key in the registry for the current user to set whether to login to a console or explorer. Had it been Linux I would've gone straight to the config files and everything would've been in plain "dev" text, lol.

 

Same deal I'm having with FFXIV from time to time. Game boots to an obscure error code 2 times out of 3, pointing to a Windows dll. Was this an open source software, I might actually check what's causing the error and fix it.

 

I wish Windows was developer friendly. ^^

 

I also daily drive OS X when I'm at the workplace and not at home. It's full of glaring holes and problems too. I think there's basically no way any operating system can be 100% "user friendly".

[Kilrah]

29 minutes ago, Cyberspirit said:

I think most Windows users won't deny that there are many problems with the OS. The thing is, most people rather live with those problems and find a workaround for them instead of having to learn an entire new os from scratch.

And it makes no sense to move from a system with known problems to a system with as many or more problems but different ones, it would have to have way fewer of them to warrant a change.

 

And Windows problems have the advantage of so many people having them that they're pretty well documented and able to be worked around, and there's a couple of Windows versions, not 50 different distros each with its own set of problems that often aren't shared between them.

[Guest willies leg]

It's funny how the cloud works almost entirely off Linux.

All android phones and chromebooks work entirely off Linux.

Almost all embedded devices are Linux.

 

Yet Linus can't figure it out. Weird. I guess if you want to do Linux you don't watch these videos, you'd watch somebody like this instead:

https://www.youtube.com/c/SwitchedtoLinux/

 

 

[Lightwreather]

16 minutes ago, willies leg said:

Weird.

Well, it isn't all that weird. Android and ChromeOS aren't Linux per se, but rather Forks of them and as such have their own things and ofc, Google to pour in UX and UI development teams. Server is a whole other can of worms, most Server distros are CLi only. Therefore, Desktop Linux is actually rather different. You can't expect people to really care about what running beneath or how it runs. Much less, for poeple using completely different implementations of the Linux kernel to find their way around an unfamiliar DE or the like