This is NOT going Well… Linux Gaming Challenge Pt.2

[Stahlmann]

2 hours ago, Linux-Is-Best said:

I fixed your mistype.

Already edited. I noticed it immediately after posting

 

But in all honesty i'm probably not gonna try Linux anytime soon. Windows 11 works perfectly for what i do so i don't really have any reason to switch. It'd just be interesting to see how far i can get with a non-CLI stance because that's exactly how i use my Windows PC. But that's gonna have to wait until i have a bunch of time to spare and don't know what to do with it.

[finest feck fips]

9 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

I understand your point. But my main point was that i'd try to see if you could run Linux without using CLI at all or if it would become mandatory at some point, regardless of the "ease of creating guides".

You can run this kind of test, but you'll have to take care either to explicitly (re)define what you mean by ‘mandatory’, or to distinguish ‘using the CLI is what I ended up doing’ from ‘using the CLI was mandatory’.

[finest feck fips]

10 hours ago, Spindel said:

Just a question to you linux folk in here.

 

As I’ve stated elsewhere I used to daily drive linux for a couple of years some 15 years ago. What I remembered was that there was a lot of stuff both drivers and some software that you compiled for your set up instead of relying on prepackaged stuff. I want to remember that I did this with both ATI and Nvidia drivers for example. This was a thing for RedHat, Fedora, Debian and Ubuntu that where the distros I tried and Ubuntu being the one I settled on in the end for being the least user unfriendly.

 

This method worked best back then, is this not a thing any more in Linux because it seems that both Linus and Luke has not done this.

The repositories are more comprehensive nowadays, and they include out-of-tree kernel modules like the NVIDIA GPU drivers.

(Nowadays AMD's kernel drivers are included in the Linux kernel, and the best userland drivers for AMD are included in Mesa/Xorg, so you don't typically install anything at all for AMD GPUs.)

Using NVIDIA's GPU driver installer scripts is discouraged in most distros, as is using naked make invocations. That's been true for a long time now, although maybe not 15 years.

It's fine not to rely on pre-packaged stuff, but if you're going to do that you should ideally package it yourself.

[finest feck fips]

16 minutes ago, HSF3232 said:

When a webpage is served, that header will tell the browser "It's a web page"  or "It's a file, named like this: X.Y"
Esseintally, when content is requested, the webserver can tell the browser how to handle that content.

Right, but the server has to have a way of knowing what the browser is asking for in this case, because the Save Link As context menu item is present for links to webpages as well as for links to files, that context menu is populated before any request for the linked page is sent out by the browser, and only sometimes do we want those links to be treated as files for download.

Without any information about what the browser expects, the server can either unconditionally  present those links as webpages (what it currently does) or unconditionally present those links as files (so that even left-clicking on them presents a save dialog, which breaks the normal workflow of the site).

What I was asking is whether there exists some additional mechanism (such as a header that can be set by the browser, on the request for the linked page, according to the way in which it was clicked) so that one and the same link can open as a webpage when left-clicked but also present the additional filename metadata conveyed in the Content-Disposition header to the browser when it is the target of a ‘right-click->save link as’ action.

[finest feck fips]

6 minutes ago, HSF3232 said:

While that seems pretty hopeful, AFAIK, there is no additonal metadata that is sent when such actions are performed. Only time when that might happens is if there is a JS script to accomidate this. "Content-Disposition" is realivility basic, and it's dependent on other headers such as "Content-Type".

As for github, there isn't such a mechnisim in place. You could bodge this by detecting right click actions and changing the link when you do so - like how Google does so for their ad tracking links - but there is some logistical errors in that.

What happens if you set, e.g.,

Content-Disposition: inline; filename="script.sh.html"

on the response header for a whole page? Does the browser still try to force a save dialog? It kinda seems like it might mean what we want, intuitively. I don't have a convenient way to test this atm though, and probably whether a browser cares about filename without attachment is down to the individual browser.

[Guest Linux-Is-Best]

3 hours ago, Stahlmann said:

Already edited. I noticed it immediately after posting

 

But in all honesty i'm probably not gonna try Linux anytime soon. Windows 11 works perfectly for what i do so i don't really have any reason to switch. It'd just be interesting to see how far i can get with a non-CLI stance because that's exactly how i use my Windows PC. But that's gonna have to wait until i have a bunch of time to spare and don't know what to do with it.

Do it. Do it now.

 

Windows 11 will be the 1st copy of Windows, I and many others will be skipping. At the time of this posting, none of my computers, even my brand new one, does not support Windows 11 because they added that odd motherboard requirement. At the time of their release, that requirement was not common within new hardware --Not even my new one, which with a manufacture date of early 2020.

 

I honestly think Microsoft did this with the backing of hardware manufacturers to encourage people to buy new computers, which is ironic. Due to the pandemic (COVID-19), we have GPU shortages, partly surrounding how many people used that time to build new systems (along with labor and raw goods shortages). At least, everyone, I knew used that time to build or upgrade their systems (we sure had a lot of time on our hands). Now that it's 2021, entering 2022, I and most everyone I know is not looking to buy new hardware (we already have it).  I do not imagine Windows 11 will have a sudden "boom" of new adaptors anytime soon.

 

That brings another thought to mind. Everyone I know who held out against trying Linux is now considering it. And I am not talking about advanced users or even mid-range tech people. But rather, even some of the computer illiterate have been considering it as of late.  So I do find Linus Tech Tips timing to "troll" Linux a bit suspicious or convenient or serendipity, if not ironic.

[Jaesop]

15 hours ago, Arika S said:

i'm going to keep criticizing PEOPLE

Criticizing people is fine. Criticizing entire groups of people with generalizations is you doing what you're attempting to criticize. I'm not going to keep engaging on it.

[finest feck fips]

6 hours ago, Kilrah said:

And Windows problems have the advantage of so many people having them that they're pretty well documented and able to be worked around

tl;dr: the situation is more complicated than that

Eh. More users doesn't mean that issues are better documented, because an issue being well-documented isn't just a matter of more users running into it, but also of the way that users who do run into the issue describe it, ask for solutions, and report the effects of proposed solutions when they attempt them as well as what proportion of users who run into a given issue even report it at all.

In reality, the quality of issue documentation is often inversely related with the popularity of the OS. From a report of the experience of one indie game developer that recently made the rounds, for example (emphases mine):

 

Quote

[I received] one report per 11.5 users on average, and one report per 1.75 Linux players. That’s right, an average Linux player will get you 650% more bug reports. [...] [T]he Linux community is exceptionally well trained in reporting bugs. That is just the open-source way. This 5.8% of players found 38% of all the bugs that affected everyone. Just like having your own 700-person strong QA team.

This can also be true within the Linux community as a whole, between Linux distributions. The forums of newbie-friendly distros tend to have a much lower signal to noise ratio unless they are relatively strict about enforcing rules and guidelines related to how to ask for technical support and how to give technical support. The Linux sections of general tech forums (including this one) where most users are not experienced Linux users tend to be the same way. It's why the Arch wiki and the Gentoo wiki are used as resources by users of other distros.

Moreover, when the quality of issue reports is low, increasing the number of reports can make it harder to find actually useful information about an issue.

Windows is also harder to inspect, and even when inspection is easy, Windows users are generally not in the habit of doing it. Questions for Windows issues posted on StackExchange or various web forums are much less likely to come with logs, or even an unambiguous description of what happened. With Windows, it's much more likely that you'll find yourself unable to ascertain whether or not you even have the same issue as some poster than you will with Linux, or just a similar one.

Windows users tend to be much less active in online support forums than Linux users are anyway. Using Alexa rankings as a proxy measurement for traffic size: even though Windows has a hundred times the marketshare of Linux, unix.stackexchange.com than superuser.com; even though LTT boasts an audience of ‘over 20 million’ and Linux Mint likely has only a few million, the Linux Mint forums are more active than the whole of the LTT forums.

Windows' large userbase does give Windows users an advantage in terms of being supported at all by third-party vendors, but wading through online posts and community documentation for Windows issues is generally much worse IME. I don't think the situation with issue documentation or seeking support can be summarized or predicted easily because of how many countervailing factors are at play in it.

[Guest willies leg]

6 hours ago, finest feck fips said:

There's a sense in which ChromeOS and Android are forks but, say, Ubuntu is not: desktop Linux distributions typically run mainline kernels. Until very recently, the Android kernel has always been maintained as a separate fork, with changes going upstream only long after the corresponding Android release

 

Ubuntu is a fork of Debian.

Linux is the kernel + everything on top. It's actually properly GNU/Linux. Just ask Stallman. He's the forgotten one. I met him at Linux Expo in NYC back around 2000, he had one of those tombstone shaped booths and he was personally handing out CD's with his stuff (actually his + his students' stuff). Fun times!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU/Linux_naming_controversy

 

[Guest willies leg]

7 hours ago, Stahlmann said:

Lol, THIS should be more than enough to scare most people away from Linux.

 

Ha! Yeah, and no idea why Linus chose what he did, what a noob!

 

[Cyberspirit]

6 hours ago, Bramimond said:

You can't emulate PS5 on Windows today. We were talking about recent games, like the ones shown in the video.

You can play Cyberpunk 2077 on Linux. You can't play Final Fantasy VII Remake on Windows.

 

Emulators for old games also work for Linux. 

You can't emulate PS5 on Linux or Windows today. We were talking about recent games, like the ones shown in the video.

You can play Cyberpunk 2077 on Linux and Windows. You can't play Final Fantasy VII Remake on Linux or Windows.

 

Emulators for old games also work for Linux and Windows.

 

I'm not here to argue. You cannot play the latest and greatest console releases on either of them but you can play the latest PC releases on both.

That's my point.

[finest feck fips]

2 hours ago, willies leg said:

 

Ubuntu is a fork of Debian.

Linux is the kernel + everything on top. It's actually properly GNU/Linux. Just ask Stallman. He's the forgotten one. I met him at Linux Expo in NYC back around 2000, he had one of those tombstone shaped booths and he was personally handing out CD's with his stuff (actually his + his students' stuff). Fun times!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU/Linux_naming_controversy

 

If you know all that, you should also know that Android doesn't really have GNU (or most of the rest of the userland of a Linux desktop OS, either)

Android and ChromeOS are in no way as closely related to any other Linux distributions as Debian and Ubuntu are to one another, nor are they as similar to any other Linux distribution as Debian and Ubuntu are to each other

‘they're all forks’ also smashes lots of meaningful differences between kinds of forks, and it's also not really an accurate description of some upsteam/downstream relationships. A downstream distro that only adds packages, or which includes the repos of its upstream directly in its package sources, is not really a fork in the strict sense

I've seen people misunderstand the relationship between WINE and Proton on these very forums because of misconceptions about what forks are, too

[finest feck fips]

10 hours ago, Stahlmann said:

Lol, THIS should be more than enough to scare most people away from Linux.

  

9 hours ago, Akselmo said:

Maybe I am weird but I think its kind of cool how Linux has evolved and branched like that.

 

I agree! I actually had a copy of that chart printed as a poster and hung it on the door to my office

[descendency]

7 minutes ago, finest feck fips said:

  I agree! I actually had a copy of that chart printed as a poster and hung it on the door to my office

As a software engineer - I find it incredibly cool.

 

As an idiot user (what I aim to be when I am at home), that looks like a nightmare. 

[Results45]

On 11/23/2021 at 2:27 PM, Jeskspie said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0SBsV3i-_c

.

Thank you 

[Bramimond]

10 hours ago, Cyberspirit said:

I'm not here to argue. You cannot play the latest and greatest console releases on either of them but you can play the latest PC releases on both.

That's my point.

What you fail to acknowledge is that Windows and Linux are different platforms, just like Windows and Playstation. The only reason you can even play some Windows games on Linux is because of the effort people put in.

 

There shouldn't be any expectation to be able to play Windows games on Linux. Just like there is no expectation to play Playstation games on Linux. It's a different platform. If you want to play games for the platform, get the platform. 

[Stahlmann]

15 hours ago, Linux-Is-Best said:

Do it. Do it now.

 

Windows 11 will be the 1st copy of Windows, I and many others will be skipping. At the time of this posting, none of my computers, even my brand new one, does not support Windows 11 because they added that odd motherboard requirement. At the time of their release, that requirement was not common within new hardware --Not even my new one, which with a manufacture date of early 2020.

Yeah the requirements are kinda stupid, but i lucked out on that part. And for me it has worked flawlessly. I've been spared of most of the issues that are known so far. So again, no reason to switch to Linux (yet).

 

15 hours ago, Linux-Is-Best said:

I honestly think Microsoft did this with the backing of hardware manufacturers to encourage people to buy new computers, which is ironic. Due to the pandemic (COVID-19), we have GPU shortages, partly surrounding how many people used that time to build new systems (along with labor and raw goods shortages). At least, everyone, I knew used that time to build or upgrade their systems (we sure had a lot of time on our hands). Now that it's 2021, entering 2022, I and most everyone I know is not looking to buy new hardware (we already have it).  I do not imagine Windows 11 will have a sudden "boom" of new adaptors anytime soon.

Windows 10 will stay the main OS in the market for the near future. But seeing how terrible the W11 adoption rate is i'd guess they will significantly lower the minimum requirements so i'd say in a year or two it's going to be the main Windows platform. Not to mention that pretty much all the new PCs you buy now come with W11 out of the box.

 

15 hours ago, Linux-Is-Best said:

That brings another thought to mind. Everyone I know who held out against trying Linux is now considering it. And I am not talking about advanced users or even mid-range tech people. But rather, even some of the computer illiterate have been considering it as of late.  So I do find Linus Tech Tips timing to "troll" Linux a bit suspicious or convenient or serendipity, if not ironic.

Tbh i don't see why you'd say he's trolling or acting up about his Linux experience. The videos seem genuine to me so far. All the mistakes i've seen in these videos are actually things i could see myself doing wrong, or most other people. And i have quite a few friends who are pretty much dependant on the fact that i'm able to remote in via team viewer to fix their audio etc. so i wouldn't want them to try out Linux just to poke me even more with dumb stuff i have to fix for them because they can't do it themself.

 

A lot of members on this forum are their family's "tech guy/gal" so introducing any more reasons to get called up for issues can be tedious. I'll probably stick to Windows when deciding what OS to install on my parent's PC.

[creesch]

16 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

Tbh i don't see why you'd say he's trolling or acting up about his Linux experience. The videos seem genuine to me so far. All the mistakes i've seen in these videos are actually things i could see myself doing wrong, or most other people. 

 

This is a recurring theme, a lot of people are really not aware of the amount of base knowledge they posses and take for granted. I mentioned it earlier in this thread but didn't get much response (probably a case of tl;dr ). But it is so much of a recurring theme that I did want to mention it again as I keep seeing it in this thread and other threads as well.  

Many Linux users really are not aware of the amount of knowledge they take for granted but isn't reasonable to expect from a beginner. 

Yeah, people that are determined will eventually figure it out but that is exactly my bigger point. If you want a stable experience and to run Linux on more than basic hardware and do more than some browsing and light office work Linux really for a large part is only for developers or the more technically inclined people. That or (like Linus also pointed out) you need to be willing to dive into the technical details, learn about it and accept that initially you might need to reinstall from time to time. Because the Pop!_OS experience Linus had isn't unique either, when you first start out with Linux it is very easy to break things without knowing what it is you did exactly and how to revert it. Certainly with the amount of mixed information out there (another can of worms). 

 

For people wanting to reply to this, please do me the favour of first checking out the two things I linked before replying. Specifically the first one as what I wrote here is just a short summary as I didn't feel like typing out everything again. Thanks

[Stahlmann]

41 minutes ago, creesch said:

 

This is a recurring theme, a lot of people are really not aware of the amount of base knowledge they posses and take for granted. I mentioned it earlier in this thread but didn't get much response (probably a case of tl;dr ). But it is so much of a recurring theme that I did want to mention it again as I keep seeing it in this thread and other threads as well.  

Many Linux users really are not aware of the amount of knowledge they take for granted but isn't reasonable to expect from a beginner. 

Yeah, people that are determined will eventually figure it out but that is exactly my bigger point. If you want a stable experience and to run Linux on more than basic hardware and do more than some browsing and light office work Linux really for a large part is only for developers or the more technically inclined people. That or (like Linus also pointed out) you need to be willing to dive into the technical details, learn about it and accept that initially you might need to reinstall from time to time. Because the Pop!_OS experience Linus had isn't unique either, when you first start out with Linux it is very easy to break things without knowing what it is you did exactly and how to revert it. Certainly with the amount of mixed information out there (another can of worms). 

 

For people wanting to reply to this, please do me the favour of first checking out the two things I linked before replying. Specifically the first one as what I wrote here is just a short summary as I didn't feel like typing out everything again. Thanks

 

I actually think Linus sums it up pretty well:

 

Quote

If github is for developers, and within 2 days of using Linux i end up NEEDING github, then Linux is also for developers.

 

[creesch]

36 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

 

I actually think Linus sums it up pretty well:

 

 

 

With a few exceptions I agree yeah as that is basically what I wrote in the linked comment . I fully agree in the context where Linux found himself. 

 

The exceptions would the few odd projects that don't have a proper website but did put in a lot of effort of making sure the documentation on arriving at the repo is user friendly and straightforward. Though even that is debatable as it is incredibly easy to host a website through github itself and a website completely removes any confusion developer only functionality. 

[muizzsiddique]

I just wanted to point out how Linus' point on downloading files from GitHub was a bad point, especially when he demonstrated how he downloaded the file. Not only did anyone reacting to the video act just as confused, but the whole "naming a HTML file with a .sh extension" is actually the fault of GitHub and not Firefox nor Manjaro/Arch/Linux OSs.

I just tried doing exactly what he did on Windows, using both Firefox and Edge, and the same problem happened. It offered to download a Firefox HTML with a *.java extension, or for Edge a JAVA File with a *.java extension, where their contents were clearly HTML code. Ignoring the fact that he clearly doesn't know how "Save Link As..." works, the rest of this was posed as a criticism of Linux which is straight up lying.

[XWAUForceflow]

Yeah... while I agree on Linus' take about GitHub I don't agree that this is a Linux issue. The reason why I hate GitHub and find it's user experience horrible is because I needed stuff off of it multiple times, yet never for Linux, always for Windows. (Yes, there are plenty of Windows programs, tool and scripts on GitHub)

While I managed to get stuff off of GitHub I still don't really understand the interface. Every time I go to the page needing something it's frustrating. I can understand why it's a great tool for developers, but it's a horrible tool for offering regular people something to download.

[05032-Mendicant-Bias]

1 hour ago, muizzsiddique said:

I just wanted to point out how Linus' point on downloading files from GitHub was a bad point, especially when he demonstrated how he downloaded the file. Not only did anyone reacting to the video act just as confused, but the whole "naming a HTML file with a .sh extension" is actually the fault of GitHub and not Firefox nor Manjaro/Arch/Linux OSs.

The owner of that github repository added instructions of what was Linus supposed to do (very nice and supportive of them):
https://github.com/GoXLR-on-Linux/goxlr-on-linux/commit/45fbb38c2b18e2c0f9f99ce4d47ecfebcb7d562a#comments


Github is meant to work with git. There are unintuitive Github buttons that save as zip or you can copy paste the code itself. Github is fine as it is.

Linus fair point that it's unreasonable to redirect users to a github page to make the Linux do what you want it to do. I don't remember ever needing to go to github to fix windows.

[Sho2048]

Is it so hard to see that there's some bubbling toxicity coming from the community aimed at Linux users that is not really gonna make them any more open but in fact just close themselves in their own community? Most comments on YouTube and social medias are mean memes and downvote brigades. The editing and clickaity ranting is not helping.

[Gimmick21]

3 hours ago, Stahlmann said:

 

I actually think Linus sums it up pretty well:

 

 

The day I installed Win 10 I had to download .inf files and edit them to get my scanner back to work. Therefore Win10 is for developers I think.