This is NOT going Well… Linux Gaming Challenge Pt.2

[Gork]

Just now, linux fanboy said:

IDK it just exists

AH! fair enough. 

[Olgyd]

2 minutes ago, HSF3232 said:

Well yes it preseves the ".sh" part, BUT that just confuses the users more, thinking they downloaded the actual file!

 

Honestly I can't disagree on that. Still, my main point holds: on other sites, you get the actual file. On Github, you get an irrelevant HTML file for some reason.

[fUnDaMeNtAl_knobhead]

1 minute ago, HSF3232 said:

 

Nope. Written it as you put it, doesn't work.

Sorry I got it confused with the ability to git clone a folder in a repo

[gudvinr]

17 minutes ago, Olgyd said:

Looks like it's been fixed. Now right clicking and hitting "Save Link As" on Github preserves file extension.

It's like that in video too. He points out that downloaded file isn't script but rather HTML page of github fancy representation of that script.

[Ultraforce]

15 minutes ago, Gork said:

*fwaps linus with a manual* Linus: if your handlers  can shove a tecspecs, and a script in your face, they need shove a manual in it as well.

I imagine part of the reasons things are as messy as they are is the fact that for this project Linux specifically was not to use resources other then the general web and what not which I think isn't the most representative just since you usually will have someone more experienced with linux to contact if your are switching in modern times I'm pretty sure.

[Olgyd]

1 minute ago, gudvinr said:

It's like that in video too. He points out that downloaded file isn't script but rather HTML page of github fancy representation of that script.

Yeah, my mistake - I thought he got confused because he tried to download the file and the file extension was txt. I didn't know it doesn't even give you the right file. 

[fUnDaMeNtAl_knobhead]

33 minutes ago, Olgyd said:

 

Honestly I can't disagree on that. Still, my main point holds: on other sites, you get the actual file. On Github, you get an irrelevant HTML file for some reason.

Oh you have to click the file and than find the button that says raw and than download the file

[Ein0r]

This video just solidifies my initial thought that Linux is not for me and probably won't for the next decade or two. Not techie enough, too scared to make mistakes, too lazy to search for solutions when it comes to niche software.

 

Rocket League wasn't working for me today, and I tried a lot of stuff for about 2 hours and just a random hint suggested that it might be the fault of my graphics drivers. And updating those got rid of my problem. When I have so much trouble with figuring this out, then Linux is a bit over my head. 

 

The series is still fun to watch so far. Good luck to all the interested and not so tech savvy people that want to give Linux a try.

[Giganthrax]

What's concerning about this series to me is that it seems Linux gaming still has a veeeeerrrryyyy long way to go. This makes me wonder if Valve is really going to be able to make it work on the Steam Deck the way they promise.

[KaitouX]

11 minutes ago, Giganthrax said:

What's concerning about this series to me is that it seems Linux gaming still has a veeeeerrrryyyy long way to go. This makes me wonder if Valve is really going to be able to make it work on the Steam Deck the way they promise.

Valve promised to make Steam games work with SteamOS, and that is already done for the most part regardless of hardware, but if you're playing with hardware that have proper Linux support the number of issues become even lower.

Also compare Luke with Linus and you should understand that as long you don't try to use weird niche hardware/software that doesn't support Linux, you won't be having many issues.

[Blademaster91]

2 hours ago, Gork said:

^^^ 

Or that he clearly knows waaaaaaaaaaaay more about Linux then he's trolling with for views now. Anyone else remember when he  set up a ryzen 6 or something back ina 2019 or 2020 video? he whiped out a very long command, just from memory. 

 

I think Linus has to know way more about linux than he's acting for views, he's set up servers before and had to have put in work to make these linux videos.

But people defend this with "But he has to show how linux would be for an average non-tech user". Except an average non-tech user will likely stick to windows, even with the mess of Windows 11 and its awful UI changes.

3 hours ago, HSF3232 said:

Okay, this is now the point where I do want to add something here. I actually agree with others here who think that the videos are getting a little bit too much into the forced acting side. Like, it's almost cringeworthy. This is almost turning into a repeat of this video:

It slowly devolved from an actualy comparision like intro to just a LTT "Channel Super Fun" style competiton between Brandon and Linus.
If the Linux Daily Driver challenge is slowly going to turn into a competition between Linus and Luke - with Linus ultimatly losing - all for it! I just don't want blatent misinformation being spread around, or people to get the wrong idea from the videos.

As it is, the distros used are not 100% perfect. If you expect them to be 100% perfect, then you're too much of a Windows user. And you need to lower your expections. Or maybe, stop bitching about it and actualy advocate for Linux to be supported, while keeping the open source and freedom attributes! As it stands, we need Microsoft, Apple, Nvidia, heck name any company that has been greedy and power-hungry to be brought down a peg. And proper educational systems needs to be funded from the money that greedy companies have illegaly held onto with their pathetic tax evasion, so stuff like this isn't so bad. If you think Linux distros are bad, don't bitch about them and be like "Oh woe is me!", actually try to fix those issues, or advocate and make your voice heard. So then companies get off their fat asses.

Oh, and any companies who think that "AH, OPEN SOURCE SOFTWARE IS HACKABLE!", of course it is! But you know what, so is every other black-boxed peice of software ever. It's just, open source software is easier to fix than your pathetic closed-source buggy crud! And when it's 99% there, it's pratically very hard to break. If the engineering is bad, engineer it better! Or would it be program it better? Eh, works both ways.

I agree with this, and I'd rather see LTT give a more honest opinion on using linux as a daily driver OS, rather than acting and say it sucks.

If Linus is going to insist saying linux sucks as an OS to use instead of Windows, I want them to try to use Windows and not come across any bugs or things that are just dumb in Windows.

[Ultraforce]

12 minutes ago, Giganthrax said:

What's concerning about this series to me is that it seems Linux gaming still has a veeeeerrrryyyy long way to go. This makes me wonder if Valve is really going to be able to make it work on the Steam Deck the way they promise.

I imagine that SteamOS with it's standard configuration helps with a bunch of that and steam client is preinstalled. Of course since SteamOS 3.0 isn't available yet(It's using Arch Linux instead of Debian which was used the last time they updated SteamOS). Some people are guessing is that Steam OS will have similarities to Chimera OS which is an operating system designed specifically with video games in mind. It doesn't really work for the challenge since it doesn't have a desktop(Steam OS likely will) though I would imagine that the Steam Deck and the new SteamOS is unlikely to be incredible at dealing with streaming in terms of it's going to be ArchLinux so some of Linus's issues with the streaming set up will likely occur. Streaming though isn't playing video games.

[DrSparklegasm]

Honestly I don't know what the video series is for. Here's some of the biggest things I see going wrong with the linux challenge series:

• It's supposed to be a contest, but the videos are not really edited like a contest. For example they talked about "scoring" but then never actually gave scores or showed the working streams. It's really just interviews about their journey to the end.
• Their focus seems really wild in scope. Are they trying to game on linux? Or pretend they're new users? These are very different things, and it feels like the "gaming in linux" is getting the bad rap because its not "new user" friendly. It's a valid point but I feel like a new user would at least read a few instructions first.
• There's a lot of "the linux community says this" or "Ive heard this" brought up that kinda just get thrown out there with no explanation, and that really has two problems.
  • A, those things are probably true in a specific context no one bothered to figure out and explain and
  • B, basically portrays the community as wrong or unhelpful
• They're going through the initial setup here, and it feels like they don't take into account the long setup time that it would take even on Windows to do the same thing. Maybe they should try gaming on day 2 and see if it's just as bad? idk

I'm hoping there are people coming away inspired to try Linux, but I think it'll just turn new people off, and frustrate some of us who know better. I'd much rather see Linus learn some linux basics, understand the differences to windows, and then make a fair evaluation.

 

But on the same coin, do we really want a huge influx of users to ruin linux? The DIY / command line stuff is what makes linux so unique and fun. And arguably, once you know how to use it its a better user experience than the GUI in a lot of cases.

[Ultraforce]

Oh yeah I was going the the LMG Clips for the WAN Show and the whole github thing seems to not be a bit but actually just straight up not knowing how to use Github or Git

 

 

[finest feck fips]

2 hours ago, HSF3232 said:

Uhm... no it has not.
(See attached image)
SH scripts are not HTML.

2 hours ago, Gork said:

OMFG!!! I F'N HATE THAT. I don't like javascript

[others continued to post misapprehensions about this, too. I'm too lazy to quote them]

1. .sh is the extension of the file that the browser approximates from the URL in this case. The browser is (more or less) preserving the filename extension when it saves this as .sh. If you want it to do otherwise, you want it to override the filename based on the content type it detects in the file.

2. whether or not the browser preserves the filename extension that comes at the end of the URL is browser behavior, not website behavior. Some browsers do this, or prompt you asking if you want to do this (Safari, for example)

3. there's no javascript hijacking the context menu here. the file served at the URL https://github.com/GoXLR-on-Linux/goxlr-on-linux/blob/main/install.sh is an HTML file, just like file served at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle.net is an HTML file, not a netViz data file

Everyone: this is why assuming that filename extensions mean something (or that what you see at the end of a URL is a filename) is dumb. Don't do that, even if your dumb OS primes you to.

[finest feck fips]

5 minutes ago, HSF3232 said:

In case you didn't know, webservers can actually modify what filename the browser uses. There is a header for it:
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Content-Disposition

I didn't!

That's dope. Is there a client header for saying ‘I'm hitting you with a save dialog right now’? Or a content disposition that the browser will understand as a whole page but not try to save by default?

Does this

Quote

Used on the body itself, Content-Disposition has no effect.

mean it can't be applied to whole pages, like what's served at such a link?

[Jaesop]

I think this was a pretty insightful video. Ultimately, grafting a Windows machine to Linux won't be perfect in terms of all your hardware working as well. Most of the time at least. There will always be drawbacks to Linux, despite what some people will say, though it's certainly very usable, despite what some other people would say.

 

Only thing that seemed odd was the attempt to install OBS via the command line instead of the GUI installer.

[Jaesop]

1 hour ago, DrSparklegasm said:

It's supposed to be a contest, but the videos are not really edited like a contest.

I don't think it's supposed to be a contest, it's just a challenge - as in, the challenge is to use Linux as their home OS for X amount of time.

[Arika]

Well the comments on this thread went about as well as i could expect from linux users.

[finest feck fips]

2 hours ago, Ultraforce said:

Spoiler

Oh yeah I was going the the LMG Clips for the WAN Show and the whole github thing seems to not be a bit but actually just straight up not knowing how to use Github or Git

 

Linus' discussion of scripts at 724s is very revealing, in two ways:

1. He treats scripts as somehow more risky and dangerous than executables, which Windows users like Linus download and run from random websites all the time, and are much harder to inspect than scripts
2. The idea that a user (of any system) should have some basic idea of what they're doing is so alien to Linus that when Luke mentions that you're supposed to actually inspect the scripts that you run, Linus breaks out laughing and cannot stop. He also mentions how ‘long’ the script is, (talking about how much scrolling he had to do)

That ‘long’ script is also less than 200 lines, including whitespace. The following is a complete list of all of the commands it contains, aside from shell builtins like cd and exit:
 

apt-get
clear
cp
chown
dpkg
grep
pacman
pacmd
pulseaudio
sed
sh
sudo
tee

That's the complete list of commands Linus would need to understand to audit that script. Most of those are so common and quotidian that anyone who will ever touch a Unix-like command line more than once in their entire life should make a point to know them. (And anyone who uses a Unix-like command line for a year or two will learn them by accident.)

The only two that are specific to the application are pacmd and pulseaudio. Those are also, along with apt-get, dpkg, and pacman, the only commands in the script that are specific to Linux; the rest are present in some form on macOS and *BSD. Every one of those commands has a manual that can be consulted quickly and efficiently to make sure that a given usage of the command is not malicious.

In no way does it take a ‘security professional’ to inspect that script to determine whether or not it is malicious. Barring some disability, language barrier, or active hostility toward learning, any newbie could develop the skills required to sanity check that script in a week or two.

It's clear that for Linus, asking users to exercise any judgment or diligence at all when it comes to scripts is unthinkable. That point of view embodies many of the attitudes Linus ascribes at times to the Linux community: it's extreme, condescending, and elitist. In a word, it's pitiful.

(There's a big difference between saying ‘I don't want to do that right now’ or ‘I don't have time to learn this’ or ‘that's too hard for me’ and the attitude Linus reveals in that clip.)

[finest feck fips]

40 minutes ago, Jaesop said:

I don't think it's supposed to be a contest, it's just a challenge - as in, the challenge is to use Linux as their home OS for X amount of time.

There was supposed to be a winner and a loser, or at least the possibility of a winner and a loser

hence the hair dyeing punishment mentioned in the first video

[Jaesop]

11 minutes ago, finest feck fips said:

There was supposed to be a winner and a loser, or at least the possibility of a winner and a loser

hence the hair dyeing punishment mentioned in the first video

Isn't that for the one that quits first, if either does?

[Jaesop]

33 minutes ago, Arika S said:

Well the comments on this thread went about as well as i could expect from linux users.

This isn't exactly helpful either.

[Guest Linux-Is-Best]

I am just going to leave this right here. (There IS a download button)

[finest feck fips]

8 hours ago, Ashley MLP Fangirl said:

if i have to set up a new machine, i pop in a usb with a custom manjaro iso that i made on it, that automatically runs a script after install that applies all my settings and installs all my apps for me. i can't do that on Windows. i'm sure there is a way, but i don't know it.

Making custom bootable Windows media fucking sucks, and the tools on offer create a Windows image that deliberately gimps itself by refusing to run normal Windows executables unless you trick it about being a portable media installation. And to bypass the install wizard, you have to actually write a big XML file (ew) that actually fills out all the fields the install wizard expects (double ew). That wizard changes all the time without warning, so if you want to maintain a custom Windows installer you probably also want a continuous integration pipeline and someone to babysit it.

Alternatively you can use an imaging system and a tool called sysprep (and maybe some competing proprietary tools), where you perform a full installation and then ‘generalize’ it by making it forget the details of some of the hardware it's installed on. You can also combine that approach with some of the other tools used for preparing custom installation media.

It's a disaster. In contrast to a Linux live environment, which is virtually indistinguishable from a full Linux installation, WinPE is nothing like a full Windows installation. You can't add the latest version of PowerShell on a normal WinPE boot disk, if that's what you want to use to write your post-install script