This is NOT going Well… Linux Gaming Challenge Pt.2

[creesch]

2 hours ago, muizzsiddique said:

I just wanted to point out how Linus' point on downloading files from GitHub was a bad point, especially when he demonstrated how he downloaded the file. Not only did anyone reacting to the video act just as confused, but the whole "naming a HTML file with a .sh extension" is actually the fault of GitHub and not Firefox nor Manjaro/Arch/Linux OSs.

I just tried doing exactly what he did on Windows, using both Firefox and Edge, and the same problem happened. It offered to download a Firefox HTML with a *.java extension, or for Edge a JAVA File with a *.java extension, where their contents were clearly HTML code. Ignoring the fact that he clearly doesn't know how "Save Link As..." works, the rest of this was posed as a criticism of Linux which is straight up lying.

Sure the same would happen on windows. The thing is though that for windows to get your system including peripherals in a base state of working you don't need to venture to github to and fumble with a script that clearly has been put there with instructions intended for people with more base knowledge than an absolute beginner. 

 

See also my comment about this in general here and also this comment basically right above yours. So without trying to be antagonistic I do feel like you might have slightly missed the point of the message Linus was trying to convey. 

 

36 minutes ago, Gimmick21 said:

The day I installed Win 10 I had to download .inf files and edit them to get my scanner back to work. Therefore Win10 is for developers I think.

 

 

I rather see this as an exception that proves the rule as this is exceedingly rare these days on windows unless you are dealing with really old hardware. For linux it isn't just one printer but a much larger array of all sorts of hardware and peripherals that require people to do this sort of stuff in a much more invasive manner. Not to mention that inf files are a standard part of windows and are fairly well documented and if I had to guess it was a relative small adjustment to make windows 10 recognize a printer driver designed for an older version of windows. So it isn't as big of a deal compared to running a bunch of shell scripts that do much more. 

Though to be fair, Linux does indeed do a better job of supporting older hardware. Once it is supported in the Linux kernel it stays there much longer than there will be drivers available for modern Windows systems. Which is why one of the Linux mantras on desktop for the longest time was (and still sort of is) that if you want it to work you are better of with slightly older hardware. 

 

[Gimmick21]

4 minutes ago, creesch said:

I rather see this as an exception ...

Linus' statement was clear

 

But it's funny that almost all problems, that are being discussed, refer to incompatible software or hardware. Yes it's sad, that so many companies don't include Linux versions and it's nice that there are a lot of workarounds nevertheless. But it's far worse, that things don't work that should work ^^ (lols @ nvidia). But even in this case I miss specific examples related to the OS oder window-manager itself.

Are multi-dpi desktops working without problems?

Do the notifications always work?

Search? Startmenu? Wake on mouse/LAN/...? Network (Win->Linux/Linux->Win)?

 

What about properitary software like Davinci or Blender (Quicksync?)?

 

 

 

[creesch]

1 minute ago, Gimmick21 said:

But even in this case I miss specific examples related to the OS oder window-manager itself.

Are multi-dpi desktops working without problems?

Do the notifications always work?

Search? Startmenu? Wake on mouse/LAN/...? Network (Win->Linux/Linux->Win)?

Fair questions but in order to properly answer them you first need your system up and running. Not to mention that this challenge is specifically about gaming under Linux first and the rest later. Although when they do encounter them they have mentioned such issues, like Linus his remark about the volume control window scroll issue. 

 

Indirectly you have actually brought up another thing about Linux and that is fragmentation of desktop environments. It has been a little while since I daily drove Linux (about two years I guess) but then at least what bothered me the most is that I actually couldn't get everything to behave in a consistent manner as far as the UI goes. I was running a KDE plasma distro and while KDE itself is really well thought out and application integrate incredibly well with it this was only really true for qt applications. With GTK applications it always was a mixed bag. Even worse at the time were snap of flatpak applications (I can't remember which ones) which (at the time anyway, I hope this improved) due to effectively being containerized did often ignore the system theme entirely. Firefox also never really liked to play nice somehow using a weird GTK theme for all webpage UI elements that I hadn't set in system preferences.  

 

A lot of it could be fixed in some way, even more so because KDE offers a shitton of modification options you can fairly easily reach. But it also meant that I was spending more time in the preferences window than I'd have liked otherwise. 

 

Don't get me wrong, functionally it all worked but the inconsistency was something that personally bothered me a bunch. Ironically since then things on the windows side also haven't really gotten better in that regard but it is still not as bad as my experience on Linux. 

 

It's why I am always critical about people posting beautiful screenshots of their Linux desktop (although I am guilty of this myself) as I always wonder what broke the illusion the second they actually started using it after making the screenshot. 

 

On a more positive note, for a lot of people who mostly just do office work and don't game Linux can absolutely work fine in my opinion. Even in a microsoft environment as even two years ago Teams was already available on Linux (and worked fine for what I needed) and these days most office apps are also available as web based applications in office 365. 

 

Which is actually a bigger step forward than many people realize as a few years ago the lack of Microsoft office applications was also considered one of the big deal breakers for Linux adaption. (Yes I know libreoffice is a thing, no it is not  always an option unless you are the company boss or are self employed). 

[Guest Linux-Is-Best]

5 hours ago, Stahlmann said:

If github is for developers, and within 2 days of using Linux i end up NEEDING github, then Linux is also for developers.

Ya, I am not buying it that copout.

 

Without making this personal, I help care for a family member who is legally and mentally incompetent. I mean to say, they often ask me where the desktop is and think Google is The Internet. Yet, they knew how to download from Github. If someone as computer illiterate with a disability can download from Github, using Microsoft Windows (or Linux made to look like Windows), clearly, it is not hard to believe someone who is competent, but still, computer illiterate can too just as easily.

 

Historically, for over a decade now, developers have used Github to distribute software. But you do not need to be a developer or even have an account with Github to use it as a download site and obtain something you may want or need.  You do not have to process any technical skills at all. The non-tech user assumes Github is a download site (distribution site). No advance knowledge is required. For non-tech savvy users, that has been the norm for over a decade. Github, in their eyes, is a distribution (download) site.  Some may have some knowledge beyond that, but for the end-user with little skills or knowledge, it's just someplace else they download software from.

 

Linus acting as if downloading off of Github is some mysterious, magical, complicated voodoo is many things, least of it accurate.

[Guest willies leg]

15 hours ago, finest feck fips said:

If you know all that, you should also know that Android doesn't really have GNU (or most of the rest of the userland of a Linux desktop OS, either)

Android and ChromeOS are in no way as closely related to any other Linux distributions as Debian and Ubuntu are to one another, nor are they as similar to any other Linux distribution as Debian and Ubuntu are to each other

‘they're all forks’ also smashes lots of meaningful differences between kinds of forks, and it's also not really an accurate description of some upsteam/downstream relationships. A downstream distro that only adds packages, or which includes the repos of its upstream directly in its package sources, is not really a fork in the strict sense

I've seen people misunderstand the relationship between WINE and Proton on these very forums because of misconceptions about what forks are, too

 

Android is a fork of the Linux kernel with GNU + other utilities on top, and Android specific drivers in the kernel.

Just because you can't run libreoffice on a phone doesn't mean it's not Linux.

It's not Unix. It's not QNX, it's not Windows NT, it's not Windows 11. It's Linux. Modified (that's called forked because they don't submit their changes upstream...yet).

 

Here, this might help you understand, it's pretty long but it's helpful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_(software_development)

 

Of course things evolve over time, as do definitions, but it's generally accepted in the Linux community that Android's kernel is a fork of the Linux kernel.

 

[Uttamattamakin]

When I first switched to Linux back in the late 1990's there were Winprinters and Winmodems, devices that had almost no smarts in them that relied on CPU processing and drives that ONLY worked in windows.  Winmodems were often built into the hardware.  This is not so common now.  Most such devices support Linux.    That said, it is still the case that one cannot just buy any old hardware and have it work in Linux.   The other fundamental problem is he keeps choosing Linux distributions which are, to put it nicely, for people who want to tinker with Linux. 

This is not just my opinion.  Here is another new user talking about this.  

 

When you switch to Linux you have to take account of your hardware and see if it is compatible with Linux.  If you are building a computer, you have to consider will this work in Linux.  Generally, things built into motherboards all work now.  A good laser printer will work.  Any Ethernet adapter will work and so on.   Any hardware that is more unusual and specialist is a different story. 

For instance, if you really want to prioritize having the BEST camera for video then using your current gen, not last gen, flagship phone as a Camera with an app like Droidcam is how to go.  

 

On distributions.  I said this before in a thread he really should just cave in, forget what the tinkerers will say and go for the latest LTS version of Ubuntu or Kubuntu everything normal will just work.  Then the things that don't work right off the bat go on ebay.   This goes for anyone who wants to USE linux.  I've used it for going on 25 years and I now just do that (Using maybe the latest version of Ubuntu instead of the LTS.)  

In short he's doing things that would suit someone who wants to tinker and make the Windows specific hardware work but he's not one who wants to tinker.  He wants to just get to work.  

 

 

[creesch]

8 minutes ago, Linux-Is-Best said:

Ya, I am not buying it that copout.

 

 

It is not a copout though. You are doing the same thing as the person here did and that is just taking your own base knowledge for granted. I to be frank, I think you are cherry picking what to reply to and are not actually reading what you are replying to. The comment you just replied to also happens to quote me explaining why the comment you just wrote is effectively not correct before you even wrote it. So honest question, are you having an honest discussion where you try to be aware of your own biases or are you just trying really hard to win an argument? 

 

Quote

If someone as computer illiterate with a disability can download from Github, using Microsoft Windows, clearly, it is not hard to believe someone who is competent, but still, computer illiterate can too just as easily.

Holy shit, do I really need to explain to you how big of a logical fallacy you are committing there? No single project on github is the same and they all do things differently so your dismissive conclusion would only hold up if that family member managed to do it under similar circumstances from the same github repository. 

 

Quote

The non-tech user assumes Github is a download site (distribution site).

 

Not really, unless they land on a repository of a project that has gone out of their way to document stuff and properly makes use of the releases page to also attach the files needed for a specific releases. And again I have to point out that I already addressed this argument before you made it and that this was included as a quote in the comment you decided to reply to. Which really makes me wonder once more if you are waging a vendetta against everyone critical of some aspects of Linux or if you are actually open for a discussion about the subject? 

 

Quote

No advance knowledge is required.

Again, this purely shows how much you take your own knowledge for granted causing you to overestimate what actually counts as base knowledge. The vast majority of people using a computer has even never heard of github and will have no idea what they are looking at if they arrive at a repository. Even with clear documentation right there in the readme it still is a very confusing website as you first are greeted with the directory structure of that repository showing first before you even arrive at the readme. Not to mention that people might not see the documentation at all if there are a lot of files in the root directory of the repository or if they simply have the window resized so that the readme is not visible. 

 

[IkeaGnome]

1 minute ago, Uttamattamakin said:

but he's not one who wants to tinker.

He also has to have the latest and greatest everything. 

I do think he's a good example of "Average gamer goes Linux" though. As much of a shit show as that series is, I still think it makes a good point. I ran Linux for a little while. I didn't have compatibility issues. I really like it. Games were the hard part for me. A lot of the games I play wouldn't run on Linux or on Wine/Proton. That was the only thing that put me back on Windows. As soon as there's more game compatibility, I'm back to Linux.

[LionSpeck]

43 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

if you really want to prioritize having the BEST camera for video then using your current gen, not last gen, flagship phone

I would disagree with this, unless you have a spare current-gen flasghip burning out of your pocket. A used DSLR (that has a video out) is generally cheaper, even with a random lens, delivers much better quality and less latency imho

All the rest is on point

[finest feck fips]

1 hour ago, willies leg said:

 

Android is a fork of the Linux kernel with GNU + other utilities on top

 

Android doesn't have GNU libc, which the heart of every GNU system. It doesn't have GNU coreutils or GNU bash, either, or GNU grep or GNU sed or GNU find. You will be hard pressed to find any GNU utilities on Android that a GNU/Linux user would recognize from their own system.

 

This is common knowledge, and RMS himself explained this clearly and concisely in an editorial for the Guardian ten years ago:

Quote

People who erroneously think "Linux" refers to the entire GNU/Linux combination get tied in knots by these facts, and make paradoxical statements such as "Android contains Linux, but it isn't Linux". If we avoid starting from the confusion, the situation is simple: Android contains Linux, but not GNU; thus, Android and GNU/Linux are mostly different.

The current account in the GNU project's formal statement on the matter, from the official GNU website, is much the same:

Quote

Android is very different from the GNU/Linux operating system because it contains very little of GNU.

The notion that Android is GNU/Linux in the way that Fedora is GNU/Linux is simply not credible.

[Sho2048]

55 minutes ago, creesch said:

Holy shit, do I really need to explain to you how big of a logical fallacy you are committing there? No single project on github is the same and they all do things differently so your dismissive conclusion would only hold up if that family member managed to do it under similar circumstances from the same github repository. 

 

 

Not really, unless they land on a repository of a project that has gone out of their way to document stuff and properly makes use of the releases page to also attach the files needed for a specific releases. And again I have to point out that I already addressed this argument before you made it and that this was included as a quote in the comment you decided to reply to. Which really makes me wonder once more if you are waging a vendetta against everyone critical of some aspects of Linux or if you are actually open for a discussion about the subject? 

 

So is Windows for developers since I used to download Power Toys from Github? 

Is it for developers since I download a custom layout for the keyboard from Github?

 

Is the Switch for developers because to install Android I have to run a bunch of scripts from Github?

Is the Mac for developers because to make work some goddamn VPN today that works bad in Windows I spent hours installing random JDK versions, homebrew clients and Python stuff that only works on 2.7 because Apple broke the certificates for 3.6? 

 

Is Windows for developers since I have to go to the registry to fix my login issues?

 

 

 

Or is it that when something is only supported by FOSS developers you have to go on Github, else you'd have to accept that stuff that is developed for Windows just simply will not work and you should accept it? Exactly like I have to install the WSL on Windows, or run Vagrant on my Macbook since it seems that 32 bit apps are just dead on OS X, just to use this freaking java applet that somehow still works in Chrome for Windows. And I'm pissed today because I have to deal with 32 bit software and VPNs that still rely on the Java plugin in fucking almost 2022.

 

No, Linux is not for developers because it does not require Github. Stuff not made for Linux requires Github because companies won't do shit about it.

 

Ah yea. Also my Vita and my 3DS are for developers, first one to handle microSDs, and the second one to backup the games and saves to my PC. Even Nintendo requires you to go to Github!

 

And before someone says "the GoXLR is made for PCs so it should work" also the MicroSD from the 3DS fits in a big bunch of devices, it doesn't mean that 3DS games and stuff should work everywhere without me having to do some strange vodoo shit (but completely legal).

[creesch]

Just now, Sho2048 said:

stuff

 

Three things: 

 

1. Instead of quickly replying to a fraction of what I said your point would be stronger if I had the idea that you had read what I said.
2. As it stands now your response is actually an excellent example of the sort of thing I addressed in my previous comments. 
3. Do I really need to point out to you that everything you list counts as advanced use of windows and none of it is needed to get your windows to a basic working state?

 

[Sho2048]

Just now, creesch said:

 

Three things: 

 

1. Instead of quickly replying to a fraction of what I said your point would be stronger if I had the idea that you had read what I said.
2. As it stands now your response is actually an excellent example of the sort of thing I addressed in my previous comments. 
3. Do I really need to point out to you that everything you list counts as advanced use of windows and none of it is needed to get your windows to a basic working state?

 

Is GoXLR support a "basic working state"? Yes or no?
 

I'd be really happy to have an open discussion, but if we take Linus' opinions as gospel it's no use.

[finest feck fips]

1 hour ago, Linux-Is-Best said:

Linus acting as if downloading off of Github is some mysterious, magical, complicated voodoo is many things, least of it accurate.

Agreed. The specific thing that he tried to download made it trickier than it is for many projects— at the time, the instructions only mentioned grabbing a single file, and there was no releases page. The loved one you describe may likely have had some difficulty with that particular project, in the state that Linus found it, as would some others.

But his characterization of GitHub overall as inaccessible or difficult to download from is misleading and inaccurate.

[creesch]

Just now, Sho2048 said:

Is GoXLR support a "basic working state"? Yes or no?

Having peripherals work is something I would consider a basic working state yes. But let me stop you here before you reply further, we (as in other users and I) have been over this multiple times in this thread. So far you haven't responded to what was actually written and this is again just a comment where you try to make a quick point without actually discussing the subject. Let's not lawyer about what exactly constitutes a base working state of an operating system as regardless what that state is none of the things on your list are related to that as they are advanced use cases. 

[finest feck fips]

5 minutes ago, Sho2048 said:

Is GoXLR support a "basic working state"? Yes or no?

Quote

Is GoXLR support hacking third-party hardware for the advanced, specialized use case of live streaming with multiple audio streams over high-end digital microphones to make it work in an unsupported way a "basic working state"? Yes or no?

FTFY

I can't believe how patient you've been with this dude

[Sho2048]

3 minutes ago, creesch said:

Having peripherals work is something I would consider a basic working state yes. But let me stop you here before you reply further, we (as in other users and I) have been over this multiple times in this thread. So far you haven't responded to what was actually written and this is again just a comment where you try to make a quick point without actually discussing the subject. Let's not lawyer about what exactly constitutes a base working state of an operating system as regardless what that state is none of the things on your list are related to that as they are advanced use cases. 

Then you're wrong.

 

And now excuse me but now I'll play the acclaimed MMORPG for developers Final Fantasy 14 for a bit. It requires me to go to Github to download a tool to play with my MIDI peripheral, too. Goddamn it, such an elitist community!

 

Have fun moving that goal post.

 

3 minutes ago, finest feck fips said:

ftfy

I can't believe how patient you've been with this dude

I mean, such an elitist dude I am. I can't deal with myself.

 

[finest feck fips]

10 minutes ago, creesch said:

Having peripherals work is something I would consider a basic working state yes

I can't get my Apple Pencil to work on Windows without Parallels

Why doesn't Microsoft support getting my hardware into a basic working state without a bunch of hassle

[Sho2048]

1 minute ago, finest feck fips said:

I can't get my Apple Pencil to work on Windows without running a virtual machine.

Why doesn't Microsoft support getting my hardware into a basic working state

To not have MacOS force mouse acceleration on me I have to gasp input a command in the command line, and I think that does not work anymore either.  Just a checkmark on both Windows and most Linux distros. The nerve.

[finest feck fips]

5 minutes ago, Sho2048 said:

To not have MacOS force mouse acceleration on me I have to gasp input a command in the command line, and I think that does not work anymore either.

This is actually super fucking annoying to me too lol. The only way to fully disable mouse acceleration on macOS nowadays is to use a very clever hack by a Japanese developer which is some kind of alternative mouse driver that emulates a different kind of input device.

Even then, you lose the ability to adjust speed, as manually setting the cursor speed, even with acceleration nominally disabled, will allow acceleration to creep back in, although you probably won't notice it except with high sensitivity on high-resolution mice.

[Sho2048]

1 minute ago, finest feck fips said:

This is actually super fucking annoying to me too lol. The only way to fully disable mouse acceleration on macOS emulation nowadays is to use a very clever hack by a Japanese developer which is some kind of alternative mouse driver that emulates a different kind of input device.

Even then, you lose the ability to adjust speed, as manually setting the cursor speed, even with acceleration nominally disabled, will allow acceleration to creep back in, although you probably won't notice it except with high sensitivity on high-resolution mice.

This used to work until Monterey

 

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/amazing-tool-to-disable-os-x-mouse-accel.1894812/ 

 

now it doesn't seem to do anything.

[creesch]

  

2 minutes ago, finest feck fips said:

FTFY

I can't believe how patient you've been with this dude

lol, all peripherals are in fact third party hardware. In fact most hardware out there as far as desktop computers are concerned is third party hardware. We are talking about an audio interface here which is in effect nothing more than a USB soundcard which in this case has some extra features. It doesn't really matter how many buttons it has, fact of the matter is that this peripheral has no Linux support from the manufacturer. You making it seem that this is some exotic edge case doesn't make that the truth, many less exotic peripherals are also not supported and that is the reality anyone who wants to switch to Linux will need to deal with. 

 

  

2 minutes ago, finest feck fips said:

I can't get my Apple Pencil to work on Windows without running a virtual machine.

Why doesn't Microsoft support getting my hardware into a basic working state without a bunch of hassle

 

I am sorry, I didn't realize we were doing tiktok memes "Show me you haven't actually read a single word of what I said without telling me you haven't actually read a single word of what I said" right?  

What even is your point here? That Linux users should have no expectations of computer hardware working? 

 

 

  

5 minutes ago, Sho2048 said:

Then you're wrong.

 

And now excuse me but now I'll play the acclaimed MMORPG for developers Final Fantasy 14 for a bit. It requires me to go to Github to download a tool to play with my MIDI peripheral, too. Goddamn it, such an elitist community!

 

Have fun moving that goal post.

 

I mean, such an elitist dude I am. I can't deal with myself.

 

 

I just want to thank you for taking up the role of the advanced user who doesn't actually realize they are an advanced user with such enthusiasm. I couldn't have provided a better example myself  Yes you would do fine in Linux, no you are also not your average beginner. 

[Sho2048]

16 minutes ago, creesch said:

  

lol, all peripherals are in fact third party hardware. In fact most hardware out there as far as desktop computers are concerned is third party hardware. We are talking about an audio interface here which is in effect nothing more than a USB soundcard which in this case has some extra features. It doesn't really matter how many buttons it has, fact of the matter is that this peripheral has no Linux support from the manufacturer. You making it seem that this is some exotic edge case doesn't make that the truth, many less exotic peripherals are also not supported and that is the reality anyone who wants to switch to Linux will need to deal with. 

 

  

 

I am sorry, I didn't realize we were doing tiktok memes "Show me you haven't actually read a single word of what I said without telling me you haven't actually read a single word of what I said" right?  

What even is your point here? That Linux users should have no expectations of computer hardware working? 

 

 

  

 

I just want to thank you for taking up the role of the advanced user who doesn't actually realize they are an advanced user with such enthusiasm. I couldn't have provided a better example myself  Yes you would do fine in Linux, no you are also not your average beginner. 

Yeah, average beginners use GoXLR, not FFXIV.

 

  

16 minutes ago, creesch said:

What even is your point here? That Linux users should have no expectations of computer hardware working? 

 

 

But yea my dude, you should have literally zero expectations of hardware or software working on stuff that it is not built for. This is literally a fight I have to do every single time clients ask me for Internet Explorer or old ass iPads' Safari. This is why stuff comes with "NO WARRANTY" written all over it, because you have to pay me to support your stuff.

 

Btw I am not sure why you think I don't think I'm an advanced user?! I am a developer, my guy XD

[finest feck fips]

2 minutes ago, creesch said:

What even is your point here? That Linux users should have no expectations of computer hardware working?

Users should expect their hardware to be compatible with the operating systems for which the manufacturer advertises compatibility. And they should expect doing unsupported stuff to require some specialized knowledge. (They might feel fortunate when something has compatibility which is not advertised.)

[creesch]

1 minute ago, finest feck fips said:

Users should expect their hardware to be compatible with the operating systems for which the manufacturer advertises compatibility. And they should expect doing unsupported stuff to require some specialized knowledge. (They might feel fortunate when something has compatibility which is not advertised.)

 

Interesting point by which you very much narrow the scope of Linux to a degree that by your definition it even shouldn't work. This simply due to the enormous amounts of work done by volunteers to get things supported in the kernel even though the manufacture doesn't officially support it. 

 

But regardless of that, it is indeed pretty much what the series is about. What someone who currently has a perfectly working windows PC can expect if they want to try out Linux in combination with gaming and by extension what the state of Linux as a desktop operating system is for a more general audience.

 

So it seems really odd to me that you are so fully in agreement with the other person above you while your comment is in complete contradiction of what they said as they don't consider any of it advanced knowledge. 

 

To me it seems that you are confusing people discussing the experience of using Linux (so what can people reasonably expect when they want to try out Linux with their current hardware) with an attack on Linux in general? Otherwise I am not sure what your general point is or where your stand. 

 

If you don't mind, read the first comment I wrote in this thread (actual read it, not just skim and then respond to highlights without context) and let me know if you really disagree with anything in there?