This is NOT going Well… Linux Gaming Challenge Pt.2

[Guest Linux-Is-Best]

4 minutes ago, HSF3232 said:

If you expect them to be 100% perfect, then you're too much of a Windows user

Windows and perfect? lmao.

 

The blue sceen of death has entered the chat.

 

(I couldn't help myself)

[gudvinr]

3 minutes ago, finest feck fips said:

This is perhaps another instance of Windows users being surprised to learn that nobody except their OS takes file extensions seriously. Browsers and web servers certainly don't; the URL to those pages is determined by the filename, extension and all. When the browser offers to save the file as `install.sh`, it's offering you the file with the same name that it found on it.

That would be legit surprising to most Windows users who haven't browsed sites which do that and noticed it, of course

I don't see anything wrong here. If I see .sh file on the disk I certainly wouldn't assume that it's anything but script.

When downloading file dialog mentions that it is, in fact, HTML document. But I also don't see that as unreasonable to forget checking it.

Right now I only did that because I wanted to see if I can somehow see that I am downloading HTML page and not an actual file.

 

User, as a person, could only rely on their eyes and should not give any fucks about executable bits, permissions, mime data and stuff like that.

These things matter to software but person who wants to save file doesn't need to be aware at all times that when you download stuff out of site where files are listed you won't get a file that you tried to save.

 

Again, this looks funny if you do know how github works, but this isn't unreasonable although not Linux-specific issue.

[n0stalghia]

Props to Linus for sticking with this from the "I'm a user, not a software developer" angle.

 

Shell warnings, github "downloads", script setups, all this is everyday business to me as a software dev and I actually believe Linus knows how to do this as well, but he's keeping the "how does Linux look from the eyes of a mostly tech illiterate person who just wants to boot the PC and launch Valorant" perspective.

 

This is probably going to become better with SteamOS since you'll have a company maintaining the product for once (then again, whom am I fooling, Valve can't maintain their shit even on Windows - Windows 11 is still unsupported as of now by SteamVR), but only for pure gamers. They'll support video and audio on certain specific hardware, and games on Arch, and that'll be it. The desktop/standalone version of SteamOS will have all the problems of other Arch distros when it comes to running on something that is not one specific configuration of hardware that one company released their OS for.

 

I believe this is the reason why Steam Machines died, btw - Valve couldn't support the entirety of hardware so they instead just developed their own. But since the PC market is so full of hardware manufacturers they had to carve out a niche for themselves to survive.

[Dandellion]

It's interesting that "well supported" means such a different thing to different users.

Having vendor apps available is the windows way. Having a standardized interface is the Linux way.

 

If you want to rebind your keys, you do it through Xorg.

Want a stream from your camera? Hopefully someone made a v4l2 driver for it in the kernel.

Getting battery status of your peripherals? Definitely something that should be exposed in some standard way, then handled by your DE. (And likely is)

I guess some more advanced products might require more specific settings, and then vendor apps are definitely needed, but proper linux support means having good kernel drivers exposing the standard interfaces, and/or hooking into the right userspace functionality - like for example dbus, and then writing your "gui app" based on those. This is a pretty stark difference to what "proper support" means on Windows, namely a wild west. Though if you don't have a choice the wild west is better than nothing...

The Linux community is surprisingly good at reverse engineering and building alternative apps with these aforementioned techniques. One should definitely look into using one of those before passing things through to a VM (though I know this wasn't possible in the case for the GoXLR). Many of them will be a better experience than what the vendor likely would have put out.

Generally if it's reverse engineered and in the kernel the experience is great and plug-and-play, but for other things it can be really hit and miss. What people choose to reverse-engineer isn't always going to overlap with what you have. That's how it is without proper Linux support from vendors unfortunately.
 

The GoXLR thing honestly sucks yeah. Not everything you buy will work on Linux. But I think it's worth mentioning that there are standards for these things, and other manufacturers do follow them. If you're not "porting" your sound setup over from one platform to the other, there are many great solutions you might not even be aware is possible in the Windows world. Pipewire/jack + carla/some other DAW can be incredibly powerful even without much fancy hardware. The audio subsystems on Linux are in general extremely flexible and powerful.

[gudvinr]

18 minutes ago, finest feck fips said:

There's a huge difference between some non-profit foundation being able to fund a little internship here and there and having even one developer paid to work on a project full time

That is not a point though. Person I replied to said about people not getting paid as the reason FOSS isn't way to go.

Which isn't true. There are people who paid for working FOSS. Not every project are getting money and not many projects get enough of funding though. That's true.

 

If goxlr would release documentation for their device, there would be decent 3rd party support for it. They don't even need to develop drivers by themselves. People who own the thing will happily write drivers if there's no need to reverse engineer weird protocols.

And that is the reason why sometimes experience is unpleasant. You don't even need cash flow for that.

 

[finest feck fips]

5 minutes ago, HSF3232 said:

If you expect them to be 100% perfect, then you're too much of a Windows user.

This. To extend it slightly, if:

• you want to use ‘advanced’ tricks without knowing what they are/do/mean, or
• you want to be able to use known-incompatible hardware without issue, or
• you want to instantly be able to follow instructions without first learning any new vocabulary

your approach to computing is so helpless that you probably shouldn't try anything that doesn't come shrinkwrapped in a box (to use an aging metaphor). You're not a user, you're a consumer. The only Linux suitable for you is the kind that gets completely locked down to the point that whatever device it's on is largely unrecognizable as a personal computer, like Android or the form of SteamOS which will come installed on the Steam Deck.

It's fine to be that kind of consumer, of course. But that kind of consumer is not a reasonable target audience for a video series exploring the possibility of switching to desktop Linux.

 

[finest feck fips]

7 minutes ago, gudvinr said:

If goxlr would release documentation for their device, there would be decent 3rd party support for it. They don't even need to develop drivers by themselves. People who own the thing will happily write drivers if there's no need to reverse engineer weird protocols.

That's true. A lot of hardware compatibility pain points with Linux are more the result of active hostility toward standardization, public documentation, or compatibility than mere lack of support

[fUnDaMeNtAl_knobhead]

Why does linus not git clone or click the file and select raw and download it?

[fUnDaMeNtAl_knobhead]

3 minutes ago, HSF3232 said:

Git clone would need some command line kung fu. I'm going to be a little be lax on this one, some of my class mates has trouble with it, so I just opted to update the git repos for them. Though, I agree. Honestly, even a normal user would figure it out after a while. Or they could take the easy route, download the entire repo, and then pull the one file they need. Space-hogging, but eh, close enough.

But a 'contributor' helped him surely he would be able to tell him the simpler way instead of download the file copy the intestins and paste it into to kate and make a new file.

 

 

 

TLDR my main point is that a contributor helped him

[Olgyd]

3 hours ago, Linux-Is-Best said:

Linus, are you trolling?

 

Visit any Github, and there is a nice, big, green button. It's the only green button on the whole site. You can see it in your video too. Guess what that button does? DOWNLOAD. You can also visit the release page on nearly any development and DOWNLOAD from there too. Even Windows users know this. How do you not?

 

Yet, you're trying to argue that you right-click, save as an HTML, then paste it into an editor, and save it properly? Dude, who are you fooling?

 

2 hours ago, CCWong said:

Cringed pretty hard at Linus downloading a webpage and wondering why it wasn't a shell script.

 

Edit: Not that he should be ashamed or anything, he is just ignorant of how that functionality works in browsers, which is obv ok because we're all ignorant of tons and tons of tech shit.

 

2 hours ago, finest feck fips said:

  Yeah, that cracked me up

GitHub is not a Dropbox clone. Linus had no reason to expect it to behave like one

 

2 hours ago, Ashley MLP Fangirl said:

hold judgement? i'd forgive my grandma who knows nothing about computers for making that mistake, but Linus? it's not like GitHub is Linux only, i refuse to believe that he's never downloaded software from there before. 

 

Right clicking on a link to download files dates back to text-only Internet and FTP servers. It was the norm before CSS gave us websites with fancy download "buttons" that are actually HTML scripts.

 

Edit: Okay, so after some further research the issue is that the links on Github look like direct links to the files due to the file extensions when they're not.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Olgyd

[fUnDaMeNtAl_knobhead]

3 minutes ago, Olgyd said:

 

 

 

Right clicking on a link to download files dates back to text-only Internet and FTP servers. It was the norm before CSS gave us websites with fancy download "buttons" that are actually HTML scripts.

 

If you don't believe me, go to Steam's website and try to get their client. Right click on their big blue download button, hit "Save Link As".

 

Though interestingly, it appears Github has actually fixed that so now trying to download a shell file the Linus way (read: the traditional way) preserves the file extension.

I am not saying that linus did the wrong thing but the 'alleged contributor didn't tell him the best or the official way to do it is outrageous

[fUnDaMeNtAl_knobhead]

2 minutes ago, HSF3232 said:

That, and uh... the github repo added a "Linus-proof" messure. https://github.com/GoXLR-on-Linux/goxlr-on-linux/commit/45fbb38c2b18e2c0f9f99ce4d47ecfebcb7d562a#diff-b335630551682c19a781afebcf4d07bf978fb1f8ac04c6bf87428ed5106870f5

How the _____ are they using wget when there is GIT CLONE it says it right in the name

[Olgyd]

1 hour ago, gudvinr said:

Not "in browser" but on github specifically. There are sites that allow you to download files when you use "save link as". It's not entirely unreasonable thing to do. Especially when file saved as "install.sh".

It was weird, yes. But if you never had to get individual files from github you go there, you see file list and unless you click on that link you'll never know that this link leads to webpage that make this file look fancy. There's no download button near file. No indication that it leads to other webpage.

 

Looks like it's been fixed. Now right clicking and hitting "Save Link As" on Github preserves file extension.

 

 

 

_{Like it should...}

[fUnDaMeNtAl_knobhead]

2 minutes ago, linux fanboy said:

How the _____ are they using wget when there is GIT CLONE it says it right in the name

I gotta make a commit to that repo

[Gork]

Just 6 minuts in and Linus's  short fuse, and attention are out in the open. Did he even read the manjaro website? The mans my-way-or-the-highway mentality shows. He's complaining that manjaro uses pacman. sure does! because it's in the arch family.  Short list of things that are just wrong:

• Github is not exculsive to developers. Apps, and fixes land their a lot. and it's not that  a big thing to  use it.  
• He thought apt-get would work on manjaro? oO did he read the arch wiki's or even just look at the manjaro forum. I bet someones problem, apps, or whatever eventually say: type pacman -Syu (something here). 
• a lot hardware doesn't work all that well in windows. 
• android plays better with linux sometimes.
• And huh? just because an apps fix got to github before the main website doesn't meen  it's developers only. It just meens it got their first and git --install or  run (script here) is a thing Bashing linux just because of having a short attention span is a turn off. Besides Zsh: bashlike with command completion? yes please
• Their's a linux razer chroma controll the macros don't work on razer keyboards (yet). It's partially because of a fundimental different in how extended (macro) keys work. I have no idea if anyone has or can fix it.

I have a fealing Linus doesn't have the attention span for Linux. Or is trolling for youtube money. I hope someone wouldn't just go: oh gee a whole variety of the same OS, sure lets just haphazzardly smash commands. Infact right here:

https://manjaro.org/support/commonproblems/howtoinstallsoftware/  it says rightoff: you will be using pacman. Though personally I suggest a AUR helper: yay is good, trizen isn't halfbad either. not in linux at the moment of them color coded things so that neon red would show where problems or total breakage is:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/AUR_helpers#Comparison_tables

*fwaps linus with a manual* Linus: if your handlers  can shove a tecspecs, and a script in your face, they need shove a manual in it as well.

[fUnDaMeNtAl_knobhead]

1 minute ago, HSF3232 said:

Okay, well. Imagine if you're a new user. What would you prefer? 186 lines of confusing jargon. Or just 3 lines that seems simple enough. The install.sh script makes things easier for the common user to install the utilty. you COULD git clone it and follow the install.sh script, but only power users would know how to do that.

You could actually git clone a specific file

[Olgyd]

7 minutes ago, linux fanboy said:

I am not saying that linus did the wrong thing but the 'alleged contributor didn't tell him the best or the official way to do it is outrageous

 

I'm more annoyed so many seem to think "you can't right click to Download something". Though perhaps I should blame web devs who have moved from direct links to Javscript.

[fUnDaMeNtAl_knobhead]

1 minute ago, Gork said:

Just 6 minuts in and Linus's  short fuse, and attention are out in the open. Did he even read the manjaro website? The mans my-way-or-the-highway mentality shows. He's complaining that manjaro uses pacman. sure does! because it's in the arch family.  Short list of things that are just wrong:

• Github is not exculsive to developers. Apps, and fixes land their a lot. and it's not that  a big thing to  use it.  
• He thought apt-get would work on manjaro? oO did he read the arch wiki's or even just look at the manjaro forum. I bet someones problem, apps, or whatever eventually say: type pacman -Syu (something here). 
• a lot hardware doesn't work all that well in windows. 
• android plays better with linux sometimes.
• And huh? just because an apps fix got to github before the main website doesn't meen  it's developers only. It just meens it got their first and git --install or  run (script here) is a thing Bashing linux just because of having a short attention span is a turn off. Besides Zsh: bashlike with command completion? yes please
• Their's a linux razer chroma controll the macros don't work on razer keyboards (yet). It's partially because of a fundimental different in how extended (macro) keys work. I have no idea if anyone has or can fix it.

I have a fealing Linus doesn't have the attention span for Linux. Or is trolling for youtube money. I hope someone wouldn't just go: oh gee a whole variety of the same OS, sure lets just haphazzardly smash commands. Infact right here:

https://manjaro.org/support/commonproblems/howtoinstallsoftware/  it says rightoff: you will be using pacman. Though personally I suggest a AUR helper: yay is good, trizen isn't halfbad either. not in linux at the moment of them color coded things so that neon red would show where problems or total breakage is:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/AUR_helpers#Comparison_tables

*fwaps linus with a manual* Linus: if your handlers  can shove a tecspecs, and a script in your face, they need shove a manual in it as well.

BTW you could actually install apt on arch by using the aur

[Gork]

1 hour ago, Ashley MLP Fangirl said:

hold judgement? i'd forgive my grandma who knows nothing about computers for making that mistake, but Linus? it's not like GitHub is Linux only, i refuse to believe that he's never downloaded software from there before. 

^^^ 

Or that he clearly knows waaaaaaaaaaaay more about Linux then he's trolling with for views now. Anyone else remember when he  set up a ryzen 6 or something back ina 2019 or 2020 video? he whiped out a very long command, just from memory. 

 

[Olgyd]

2 minutes ago, HSF3232 said:

Uhm... no it has not.
(See attached image)
SH scripts are not HTML.

 

I said "preserves FILE EXTENSION". I remember doing that when Linus first mentioned it on WAN; I got a file called install.txt (again, for emphasis: TXT, not SH).

[Gork]

1 minute ago, linux fanboy said:

BTW you could actually install apt on arch by using the aur

I did not  know that! does it work well? ^_^  before yay I used srcpac, wich is long gone. I wonder when he's going to try zsh. someone keep him from ksh though.

[fUnDaMeNtAl_knobhead]

1 minute ago, HSF3232 said:

Since when did they add that, and how would you do it?

you put in the normal clone script ex git clone  https://github.com/GoXLR-on-Linux/goxlr-on-linux and than put in the additional directories if needed to the file and put in the file's name in this case the final script will be this git clone https://github.com/GoXLR-on-Linux/goxlr-on-linux/install.sh

[fUnDaMeNtAl_knobhead]

3 minutes ago, Gork said:

I did not  know that! does it work well? ^_^  before yay I used srcpac, wich is long gone. I wonder when he's going to try zsh. someone keep him from ksh though.

IDK it just exists

[Gork]

4 minutes ago, Olgyd said:

 

I'm more annoyed so many seem to think "you can't right click to Download something". Though perhaps I should blame web devs who have moved from direct links to Javscript.

OMFG!!! I F'N HATE THAT. I don't like javascript and will not, and do not hide that, for a lot of reasons. A rediculously unprofessional squable with one of the JS devs at Mozilla (I was super young and an ass then) and also because its not a gd programing language, gone are simple, will labled, well tooled links that are direct and archive-able. and also enable users to, as you say, right click and save.

[Ultraforce]

20 minutes ago, linux fanboy said:

But a 'contributor' helped him surely he would be able to tell him the simpler way instead of download the file copy the intestins and paste it into to kate and make a new file.

 

 

 

TLDR my main point is that a contributor helped him

Pretty sure by contributor helped him he meant the person that replied to the .sh question on stackoverflow and while there's mention of github in the question there's not actual mentioning cloning of a git. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/13805295/whats-a-sh-file