This is NOT going Well… Linux Gaming Challenge Pt.2

[Sho2048]

23 minutes ago, creesch said:

 

Interesting point by which you very much narrow the scope of Linux to a degree that by your definition it even shouldn't work. This simply due to the enormous amounts of work done by volunteers to get things supported in the kernel even though the manufacture doesn't officially support it. 

 

But regardless of that, it is indeed pretty much what the series is about. What someone who currently has a perfectly working windows PC can expect if they want to try out Linux in combination with gaming and by extension what the state of Linux as a desktop operating system is for a more general audience.

 

So it seems really odd to me that you are so fully in agreement with the other person above you while your comment is in complete contradiction of what they said as they don't consider any of it advanced knowledge. 

 

To me it seems that you are confusing people discussing the experience of using Linux (so what can people reasonably expect when they want to try out Linux with their current hardware) with an attack on Linux in general? Otherwise I am not sure what your general point is or where your stand. 

 

If you don't mind, read the first comment I wrote in this thread (actual read it, not just skim and then respond to highlights without context) and let me know if you really disagree with anything in there? 

 

 

 

 

Your first comment has like nothing to do with this post and you seem to not be understanding what I wrote.

 

You should expect stuff that that is not supported to not be supported, aka not work, at all. Some stuff is supported (a lot of Intel and AMD stuff is) by manufacturers. A lot is not. And this is not like, advanced knowledge. People understand that apps for iPhone don't work on Android and vice versa, this is not rocket science. There is literally a sticker from Microsoft that advertises if something is for Windows. You see people routinely ask if this or that Bluetooth keyboard even work for Mac at all since some manufacturers such as Logitech love to make "Mac" versions that are basically just a different paint job. People understand that PS5 games do not work on Xbox. They even learnt that PS3 games don't work on PS4 at some point.

 

Why would it be different for Linux? 

 

I know the reason: you take for granted that people is dumb and does not understand that Linux is not Windows. And you seem to ignore the fact that most communities who try to help out people even when manufacturers won't always advice that "not everything might work, your mileage may vary, no warranty, you might break your stuff, do it at your own peril". It's basically a given to write it on homebrew stuff. To the point that some teams jokingly write stuff like "your soul belongs to us now" to make fun of EULAs.

 

I am in no way contradicting fffs. You should not expect stuff to work if it's not supported. Don't stick your "not made for oven" pans in the oven. Don't stick "unsafe for microwave" plates in your microwave. 

[finest feck fips]

23 minutes ago, creesch said:

But regardless of that, it is indeed pretty much what the series is about. What someone who currently has a perfectly working windows PC can expect if they want to try out Linux in combination with gaming and by extension what the state of Linux as a desktop operating system is for a more general audience.

Yeah, it's totally fine for Linus to showcase that some hardware has compatibility issues with Linux, especially if that hardware is popular or uniquely compelling for its use case. GoXLR seems important within its niche, so that makes sense. (Linus actually does a pretty good job of putting the blame for many of these compatibility woes squarely on the shoulders of hardware vendors.)
 

23 minutes ago, creesch said:

So it seems really odd to me that you are so fully in agreement with the other person above you while your comment is in complete contradiction of what they said as they don't consider any of it advanced knowledge.

I don't think how to download and run scripts is super advanced Linux knowledge or really difficult to access. But it is specialized in the sense that it's particular to Linux (or to Unix-like operating systems more broadly), and Windows users may not have had to do anything quite like it before. (And it can be daunting at first, too.)
 

23 minutes ago, creesch said:

To me it seems that you are confusing people discussing the experience of using Linux (so what can people reasonably expect when they want to try out Linux with their current hardware) with an attack on Linux in general? Otherwise I am not sure what your general point is or where your stand. 

I don't think so in this case, although that's a common pattern of bias or emotional reaction that I am probably also subject to, like many Linux users.

What I would prefer in this case would be for Linus (1) to be more careful about what he says the issues are, (2) to be more consistent about whether he is modeling an ‘average user’, and (3) to treat Linux like a separate platform in the way reviewers typically do when they review macOS. To simply say

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It was hugely disappointing to me to learn that my GoXLR lacks manufacturer support for Linux. While some determined hackers have developed a partial workaround, a non-technical or time-pressed user would be more likely to conclude that switching to Linux would mean changing their workflow, or changing to hardware that was designed to support Linux or open standards.

Click here to see the spin-off video where I suffer through trying to make those hacks work even though I don't quite know what I'm doing. But the bottom line is that my GoXLR did not support Linux, and that sucked.

 

He could even include a section on the total cost of replacing peripherals, or the cost and difficulty of planning a Linux-compatible build, including peripherals. And that would be fair even if it ended up showing that for most users, switching to an all-compatible setup would be very costly. But as it is now, the video confounds two distinct issues (hardware compatibility and ‘requiring the terminal’/‘requiring running scripts’ in general).

[creesch]

12 minutes ago, Sho2048 said:

Your first comment has like nothing to do with this post and you seem to not be understanding what I wrote.

 

You should expect stuff that that is not supported to not be supported, aka not work, at all. Some stuff is supported (a lot of Intel and AMD stuff is) by manufacturers. A lot is not. And this is not like, advanced knowledge. People understand that apps for iPhone don't work on Android and vice versa, this is not rocket science. There is literally a sticker from Microsoft that advertises if something is for Windows. You see people routinely ask if this or that Bluetooth keyboard even work for Mac at all since some manufacturers such as Logitech love to make "Mac" versions that are basically just a different paint job. People understand that PS5 games do not work on Xbox. They even learnt that PS3 games don't work on PS4 at some point.

 

Why would it be different for Linux? 

 

I know the reason: you take for granted that people is dumb and does not understand that Linux is not Windows. And you seem to ignore the fact that most communities who try to help out people even when manufacturers won't always advice that "not everything might work, your mileage may vary, no warranty, you might break your stuff, do it at your own peril". It's basically a given to write it on homebrew stuff. To the point that some stuff jokingly write stuff like "your soul belongs to us now" to make fun of EULAs.

 

I am in no way contradicting fffs. You should not expect stuff to work if it's not supported. Don't stick your "not made for oven" pans in the oven. Don't stick "unsafe for microwave" plates in your microwave. 

I don't think people are dumb and don't know the difference. Not by a long shot. However due to the nature of Linux it is in a different category than say macOS vs Windows has both have a very clearly defined eco system with supported hardware support. Linux on the other hand is a different story where even where a manufacture says they support Linux it might not even be the case at all or just in a very limited fashion. Case and point Nvidia GPUs, Nvidia makes drivers available so clearly their products are supported by your logic but we know it isn't as simple as that. So even if you did your homework and selected all hardware that technically should be supported you still might encounter a bunch of challenges. 

Then there is the added factor that it isn't as simple as you make it out to be. Work is constantly being done on the kernel and the included drivers so even if some hardware is never officially supported by the manufacture at some point it might actually work perfectly fine in Linux due to that. This effectively means that it isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be. In fact with the current state of Linux with most desktop computers people can expect their hardware to work to some degree, it just might not always be clear to what degree. 

 

Which makes me believe that you haven't actually taken the time to understand what this video series is about and also by extension what my initial comment in this post was about. The video series explores what people might encounter if they attempt to switch to Linux with the added goal of gaming as that is one of the areas where a bunch of developers and companies like Valve have been trying to improve things. Where the conclusion so far is that yes indeed it isn't working as smoothly yet as you might hope (although it is much better than a few years ago even) but for a lot of things it still requires you to either already have a lot of pre-existing knowledge to be able to deal with the areas where support is lack luster or to have a lot of time and patience to figure it all out. Nothing more, nothing less. Yet somehow people like you seem to get offended by that very notion, which is puzzling to me. 

[finest feck fips]

On 11/24/2021 at 4:00 AM, creesch said:

The amount of people that clearly are not aware of their own knowledge level compared to that of people starting out on Linux with a blank slate is interesting to say the least. Someone in the youtube comments who was actually rather self aware put it rather aptly 

 

 

All the stuff you do in Linux has been something you at some point had to learn and what many people in this threat consider "basic" knowledge is often already a step above what you can reasonable expect from someone to have. Not to mention that a lot of people also fail to factor in their existing knowledge they had as a starting Linux user. Yes of course things are slightly easier if you already were a developer so know your way around git(hub) and where a bash script is just something in a different language but something you can figure out. That doesn't mean it is the same for everyone who starts using Linux. 

 

To stick to the discussion about github. Well yes, there technically is a download button for repositories but that downloads the entire repository as that is how it is intended to be used. You can also go to a file and then click "raw" which gets you the actual file you can download (I believe you can also right click the raw button and right click from there). But knowing those steps actually does require pre-existing knowledge about how GitHub works and what git in general is. If you are not a developer you will not have that knowledge. 

 

People can argue that there should be a more straightforward download button on GitHub for individual files but that completely ignores the larger issue at play. 

Which is that user scripts hosted on github that require you to fetch those scripts without further instructions aren't the sort of scripts you should want to use in the first place. 

 

I know many people turn there in desperation for stuff like the goXLR and while that isn't unreasonable the sort of scripts like the one Linus came across really are nothing more than a solution hacked together by a developer who decided to share their work with other technically inclined people. If you are lucky that is, often enough they are a mess of hacked together snippets. 

 

These scripts haven't been vetted by any repository maintainer, don't have a large user base who went over them, maybe don't have an update mechanism build in and often don't really get updated at all. The latter two meaning that any user who has no idea what they are doing doesn't have a straightforward way of updating to newer versions of the script (run it again? Might work, might break stuff as the previous version isn't properly cleaned), doesn't get notified about possible updates and when stuff eventually breaks down due to a dependency changing through a distro update they might find that there isn't even an updated solution available. 

 

People often blindly refer these scripts to new users who rightfully (like Linus) get confused but that is really because they should not be used by new users as you should be able to at least look into them and verify what they do. I know many "advanced" linux users who rarely do that either but frankly those are also the sort of people I see distro hopping a ton and barely ever having a stable desktop environment for more than a few months.

Frankly put, even though he benefitted from the user script being made Linus is not the user group that user script was likely targeted at. Which basically means that Linus has a point. If the script is actually be intended to be used by a wider audience it still very much proofs the point as it very much is failing to do so. 

Incidentally the instructions for the installation have since been updated to wget the script from the command line to avoid the issue Linus had. Ironically the script doesn't check for the presence of git which is required as the install script clones the repo. 

 

And once again, people shouldn't need to resort to using random shell scripts from the internet to get their basic stuff working. The people who I see ranting about random executables that can't be vetted are largely missing the point. The point being that to get Windows in a state where you can use it in a stable manner and game on it with the use of all your peripherals doesn't require you to do so for the most case. Yes you might need to download the software from the manufacture of some peripherals but that is not in the same ballpark as downloading a sketchy exe from a random website.  

 

Frankly the only scenario where I think it is acceptable for new users to run shell scripts in is if it is a script that sets up a PPA (assuming a ubuntu based distro) and install through there or if they set up a product that can self update. And even that I would consider edge cases that shouldn't be needed for a good base experience. 

 

If you want a stable experience and to run Linux on more than basic hardware and do more than some browsing and light office work Linux really for a large part is only for developers or the more technically inclined people. That or (like Linus also pointed out) you need to be willing to dive into the technical details, learn about it and accept that initially you might need to reinstall from time to time. Because the Pop!_OS experience Linus had isn't unique either, when you first start out with Linux it is very easy to break things without knowing what it is you did exactly and how to revert it. Certainly with the amount of mixed information out there (another can of worms). Which is why I am also willing to bet that the majority user groups of Linux are basically developers (or something in a related area) or relatively young enthusiasts like students with a lot of time on their hands to mess with their OS and figure it out (who might be developers later on).

 

Which I think is very much a reasonable thing to conclude. Which is why I don't think it is reasonable that many Linux enthousiasts are getting dismissive and overly aggressive when this is pointed out as at the very least it is just a tone deaf reaction to a real situation and at worse is just detrimental to the adoption of Linux in general. Because it frankly puts off people that might be willing to try Linux and actually could have a good experience given the right support. And honestly, saying that Linux is mostly for developers (or people with similar technical backgrounds or interests) isn't a judgement on the amount of amazing work that already has been put into Linux on the desktop. It simply is a reflection on the current state of some aspects of that experience. If most users are technically inclined then naturally you do get documentation more geared towards those users and experiences geared towards those users. If then the goal is to make Linux appeal to a broader audience it is actually productive to be aware of that bias as a pain point in that regard. 

 

And to be fair, there are many many people within the Linux community who are aware of these biases and do amazing work in support roles and making the software experience better in general. So obviously my rambling above isn't aimed at those people

 

 

 

I think most of all this ↑ is uncontroversial and I just don't have much to say about it

 

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People often blindly refer these scripts to new users who rightfully (like Linus) get confused but that is really because they should not be used by new users as you should be able to at least look into them and verify what they do. I know many "advanced" linux users who rarely do that either but frankly those are also the sort of people I see distro hopping a ton and barely ever having a stable desktop environment for more than a few months.

Frankly put, even though he benefitted from the user script being made Linus is not the user group that user script was likely targeted at. Which basically means that Linus has a point. If the script is actually be intended to be used by a wider audience it still very much proofs the point as it very much is failing to do so.

I think maybe this is the best point, and it's something that Linus should be clearer about: it is very much possible that when you bring random hardware to Linux which wasn't purchased with Linux compatibility in mind, you may discover that the manufacturer's position is ‘lol sucks to be you’ and that reverse-engineered, community support is still in the early stages. And when reverse-engineered support is in early stages, using it is often painful, partial, and only suitable for semi-experienced users, not ‘I've literally been using Linux for 10 days’ ultranoobs.

[Sho2048]

16 minutes ago, creesch said:

I don't think people are dumb and don't know the difference. Not by a long shot. However due to the nature of Linux it is in a different category than say macOS vs Windows has both have a very clearly defined eco system with supported hardware support. Linux on the other hand is a different story where even where a manufacture says they support Linux it might not even be the case at all or just in a very limited fashion. Case and point Nvidia GPUs, Nvidia makes drivers available so clearly their products are supported by your logic but we know it isn't as simple as that. So even if you did your homework and selected all hardware that technically should be supported you still might encounter a bunch of challenges. 

Then there is the added factor that it isn't as simple as you make it out to be. Work is constantly being done on the kernel and the included drivers so even if some hardware is never officially supported by the manufacture at some point it might actually work perfectly fine in Linux due to that. This effectively means that it isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be. In fact with the current state of Linux with most desktop computers people can expect their hardware to work to some degree, it just might not always be clear to what degree. 

 

Which makes me believe that you haven't actually taken the time to understand what this video series is about and also by extension what my initial comment in this post was about. The video series explores what people might encounter if they attempt to switch to Linux with the added goal of gaming as that is one of the areas where a bunch of developers and companies like Valve have been trying to improve things. Where the conclusion so far is that yes indeed it isn't working as smoothly yet as you might hope (although it is much better than a few years ago even) but for a lot of things it still requires you to either already have a lot of pre-existing knowledge to be able to deal with the areas where support is lack luster or to have a lot of time and patience to figure it all out. Nothing more, nothing less. Yet somehow people like you seem to get offended by that very notion, which is puzzling to me. 

But it is a clear cut, because what's in the kernel is not official support. Your mileage might vary even if there is a module written for your hardware. Unless specifically said by a manufacturer, you cannot trust it. And honestly, while I'm out of the Linux game for a bit now, I never had issues with Nvidia on Debian/Ubuntu and even Arch/Manjaro. I had some issues with X like in 2008, sure, but driver was working fine.

 

I get the point of the series. I don't agree with the argument that it is the fault of Linux if manufacturers make non standard hardware and then not support it, and I don't agree that Linux is not "user friendly" because of that. First, because Linux is not this distro or that distro or that desktop or another desktop; you can get a laptop with Ubuntu from Dell and it will work just fine, and GNOME is very friendly. Second, because Linux cannot magically support everything, there is simply no logical way in which Linux could support every single thing from Windows, and yes, deal with it, just like when third party controllers stop working correctly because Sony or Nintendo updated their firmwares.

 

Linux requires you nothing more than Windows as Windows doesn't have some specialized software that Linux has (there is a serious number of stuff like package managers and layers for Windows to use Linux stuff), or when the Mac forces you to resort to hacks to make the mouse work the way you want and not the way Jobs want.

 

If Linus didn't equate Linux to Github or blamed it for manufacturers' fault (just like Luke did not), we would have a lot less to discuss. We'd simply have a discussion about what hardware does work and what is non standard (and I honestly hate when other developers go the non standard way).

[creesch]

5 minutes ago, finest feck fips said:

Yeah, it's totally fine for Linus to showcase that some hardware has compatibility issues with Linux, especially if that hardware is popular or uniquely compelling for its use case. GoXLR seems important within its niche, so that makes sense. (Linus actually does a pretty good job of putting the blame for many of these compatibility woes squarely on the shoulders of hardware vendors.)

 

I agree there, I even think he could have leaned on hardware manufactures a bit harder if I am being honest. 

 

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I don't think how to download and run scripts is super advanced Linux knowledge or really difficult to access. But it is specialized in the sense that it's particular to Linux (or to Unix-like operating systems more broadly), and Windows users may not have had to do anything quite like it before. (And it can be daunting at first, too.)

It is a bit more advanced than you give it credit for. If you have very vanilla hardware and don't need to game it is possible to use linux without ever really needing to execute scripts from the commandline. Granted that will be rare but many distros try to actually make that the reality for the most part as part of the user experience. But if you encounter it early on it still does require you to know several things like the fact that your script needs to executable permissions to name an obvious one. It isn't complex but there is a few new concepts involved if you do it for the first time. Not to mention that the context also hugely matters as I have explained elsewhere. 

 

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I don't think so in this case, although that's a common pattern of bias or emotional reaction that I am probably also subject to, like many Linux users.

In the context of the discussion we had before this comment certainly given the context of the other user it gave that impression to me. Hence why I found the response odd to place. To be clear, I no longer have that idea given your comments since then. 

 

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What I would prefer in this case would be for Linus (1) to be more careful about what he says the issues are, (2) to be more consistent about whether he is modeling an ‘average user’, and (3) to treat Linux like a separate platform in the way reviewers typically do when they review macOS. To simply say

I get what you are saying here certainly with your first point The second point is a bit of a tricky one, Linus seems to me like your average user who is just experienced enough to cause some extra issues. Others pointed out that he is more of a hardware focussed person and while he is around a lot of specialized software and even Linux it often has been as an end-user where others had set up things for him. It might have created a bit of an odd mix of what he does and doesn't know. I know Luke has used Linux on his desktop in the past, which might also be why Luke has had less issues overal. It also highlights to me that the issues Linus encounters aren't that far fetched as many new users will not be people with over a decade of experience in the tech space but more often than not are teenagers or students with much less experience. 

 

As far as your third point goes, I guess but at the same time it was never marketed as a review either. To me it is very clearly just Linus and Luke trying out Linux for gaming on their personal rigs and documenting their experiences along the way. This also might have been more obvious to me as they talked about it a bunch on the WAN show as well, in fact it is on the WAN show they thought up the idea. 

 

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He could even include a section on the total cost of replacing peripherals, or the cost and difficulty of planning a Linux-compatible build, including peripherals. And that would be fair even if it ended up showing that for most users, switching to an all-compatible setup would be very costly. But as it is now, the video confounds two distinct issues (hardware compatibility and ‘requiring the terminal’/‘requiring running scripts’ in general).

 

That would be interesting to see as well. Although that could be a video series in itself and once again wouldn't really be what most users who want to try out Linux would do as most people likely start out on the hardware they already have. 

 

I do appreciate you coming back and discussing this in earnest

[creesch]

4 minutes ago, Sho2048 said:

I don't agree with the argument that it is the fault of Linux if manufacturers make non standard hardware and then not support it

Linus isn't saying that, I haven't said that. In fact I multiple times have pointed out that I figured you were responding from this position. 

 

If you want a stable experience and to run Linux on more than basic hardware and do more than some browsing and light office work Linux really for a large part is only for developers or the more technically inclined people. That or (like Linus also pointed out) you need to be willing to dive into the technical details, learn about it and accept that initially you might need to reinstall from time to time.  This is not saying that Linux is at fault it simply is an observation about the current state of affairs. Yes you can figure out what hardware is exactly supported and specifically build a PC that will run the hardware almost perfectly. That also means that at that time you already have invested a considerable amount of time in figuring this all out, diving into the details, etc. 

 

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 Second, because Linux cannot magically support everything, there is simply no logical way in which Linux could support every single thing from Windows, and yes, deal with it

I agree, people will need to deal with those issues on Linux and many people do. It also means that for many things that are a bit more advanced than just internet browsing and some office work you will need to be willing to dive into some more technical details. 

 

Again, this is not me saying Linux is bad. I love Linux and have used it for many years over the past uhm... Holy shit 20 years already. See, here is me being all proud of my desktop 7 years ago That doesn't mean that I think Linux is perfect for everyone, because it isn't and that is absolutely fine. It's all really not as binary as you make it out to be, it really isn't. It is a complex world

[Sho2048]

34 minutes ago, creesch said:

Linus isn't saying that, I haven't said that. In fact I multiple times have pointed out that I figured you were responding from this position. 

Except you do?

34 minutes ago, creesch said:

If you want a stable experience and to run Linux on more than basic hardware and do more than some browsing and light office work Linux really for a large part is only for developers or the more technically inclined people. That or (like Linus also pointed out) you need to be willing to dive into the technical details, learn about it and accept that initially you might need to reinstall from time to time.  This is not saying that Linux is at fault it simply is an observation about the current state of affairs. Yes you can figure out what hardware is exactly supported and specifically build a PC that will run the hardware almost perfectly. That also means that at that time you already have invested a considerable amount of time in figuring this all out, diving into the details, etc. 

See, you're arguing that "Linux is for developers" because of something that is not intrinsic of Linux. If you take Linux by itself, there is no reason to call it "for developers". Basically no desktop environment and no distro is intended "for developers", or for "technically inclined people". You're turning Linus's expectations and requirements into a generalization of what Linux is supposed to be, but Linux was not made for his hardware and specific needs. And in the phrase "Linux is for developers" you're literally assuming that the intent behind Linux is to make things hard if you take it at the words. It's a bad shortcut for a lot of problems that are related to a lack of funding, a lack of support and sure, even boycott for a time. 

 

Gentoo is for technically inclined people. Linux is not Gentoo.

 

Even more aggravating, Linus says that "Linux is for developers because I have to go to Github" because he literally has hardware that is not supported and he's trying to make it work like a developer would instead of stopping and understanding that no, PS5 games do not work on Xbox and if there will ever be a hack to make them work, it's gonna be on Github. What he should have said is "if you have hardware that is not supported, give up or get technical, that's not the fault of Linux but the fault of companies not supporting it". 

 

But I know, "Linux is for developers" is a four word phrase that sounds condescending and a surefire way to push users to agree with him, get revenge for all those "Windows has virus and Linux has not" and sound like a smartass.

 

There is no "manufacturers" in "Linux is for developers". There is only Linux and developers. That's all. 

34 minutes ago, creesch said:

I agree, people will need to deal with those issues on Linux and many people do. It also means that for many things that are a bit more advanced than just internet browsing and some office work you will need to be willing to dive into some more technical details. 

Dude, the web is already the most popular app platform in the world. Native on the desktop is slowly becoming less and less popular and the most popular software is already just "browser apps in containers". Even most Microsoft stuff is either React Native, or React on Microsoft's forked Electron, and that stuff runs in the browser too.

 

Either way, advanced needs require advanced support.

34 minutes ago, creesch said:

Again, this is not me saying Linux is bad. I love Linux and have used it for many years over the past uhm... Holy shit 20 years already. See, here is me being all proud of my desktop 7 years ago That doesn't mean that I think Linux is perfect for everyone, because it isn't and that is absolutely fine. It's all really not as binary as you make it out to be, it really isn't. It is a complex world

... but "Linux" does not really exist. Ubuntu is for everyone about as much as Windows is for everyone. You'll find people missing all sorts of things in Windows too - so much that Microsoft had to include the bash in it, and still there is no Sketch.app for Windows (better use Figma in the browser). And not everyone enjoys gaming on a PC either, it's not as simple as consoles.

[Uttamattamakin]

3 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

He also has to have the latest and greatest everything. 

I do think he's a good example of "Average gamer goes Linux" though. As much of a shit show as that series is, I still think it makes a good point. I ran Linux for a little while. I didn't have compatibility issues. I really like it. Games were the hard part for me. A lot of the games I play wouldn't run on Linux or on Wine/Proton. That was the only thing that put me back on Windows. As soon as there's more game compatibility, I'm back to Linux.

Traditionally the latest greatest not necessarily 100% standardized things do not run well in Linux.  Therefore, Linux is often used on workstations where everything is SUPER standard and super open.  (For a lot of reasons like being able to move to a new computer or run the same code/software on someone else's in a mission critical circumstance.) 

He is encountering why so many Linux users go with virtualization for gaming and such.  Where Linux is a host OS that allows one to backup an image of their Windows set up every day or every week if anything goes haywire they can recover quickly.   So many linux gamers try to have an Nvidia and and AMD GPU (or APU) then have the AMD GPU be the main display out with Nvidia being available for NVENC use or for pass through or CUDA or whatever.  (Makes me wonder how many of his issues would go away if he wasn't trying to rely on Nvidia hardware.  

It just requires ... rethinking ones computer requirements.   But then I find using a dual system setup to be best for me.  At least until I can get my hands on a professional Nvidia card. 

 

2 hours ago, LionSpeck said:

I would disagree with this, unless you have a spare current-gen flasghip burning out of your pocket. A used DSLR (that has a video out) is generally cheaper, even with a random lens, delivers much better quality and less latency imho

All the rest is on point

The trick to making this work is that you dont' have the current gen flagship devoted to being a camera at all times. You'd have to plug it in and set permissions etc each time.  It's a bit of a pain.  I also do not like that Droidcam breaks on each reboot and requires entering terminal commands to reinstall, and get high definition.  I have gone for a good Logitech 4k webcam  even though Zoom cannot do 4k having a good quality camera does make a difference.  (My main work task is to stream my classes for my students.). 

I hope he gives Linux another chance after a while but approaches it from a clean sheet.  Putting together a new daily driver computer, with linux friendly parts.  Given his ability to obtain hardware he should be able to do that.  

Indeed if @LinusTech really wants that current year user feeling.  Try doing it with the hardware availability that exist now.  (being forced to covet a mere Ryzen 7 5700g and a more basic setup might lead to him having a better Linux experience).  Call it Junk Yard wars post Pandemic Linux edition. Junk yard wars post apocalyptic mad max edition. 

[muizzsiddique]

4 hours ago, creesch said:

Sure the same would happen on windows. The thing is though that for windows to get your system including peripherals in a base state of working you don't need to venture to github to and fumble with a script that clearly has been put there with instructions intended for people with more base knowledge than an absolute beginner. 

 

See also my comment about this in general here and also this comment basically right above yours. So without trying to be antagonistic I do feel like you might have slightly missed the point of the message Linus was trying to convey.

From my understanding, however, someone who is inexperienced with tech or has basic tech literacy on Windows will still look for a Download button instead of abusing the Save Link As button found on browsers, as that was what the instructions Linus was following literally telling them to do. They still wouldn't have downloaded the file correctly but they would be more competent than Linus here.

 

And then there is the other thing where even Linus has said that when it comes to PC gaming you absolutely will need to tinker with certain things that a beginner user of Windows is not going to know how to do, which is why people buy Xboxes, PlayStations and the Switch.

[Arika]

Quote

Linux's Fundamental Problem With Linus, His Hardware.

 

Fixed.

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths people will go to make sure others know that linux isnt the problem. It's aways someone else's,  or something else's problem.

 

People seem to think that Linus and Luke are the only people who have had problems with linux.

 

 

3 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

 The other fundamental problem is he keeps choosing Linux distributions which are, to put it nicely, for people who want to tinker with Linux. 

Pop os is literally heralded as one of the best beginner distros......

[Spotty]

3 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

The other fundamental problem is he keeps choosing Linux distributions which are, to put it nicely, for people who want to tinker with Linux. 

I think his decision to go with POP! and later Manjaro was based on a poll he did asking people which linux distros would be best to use for the series. If they're bad choices blame the people who voted for them.

Choosing a distribution is actually the first challenge any new linux user is going to face. If you try searching for which Linux distro to use you're going to get a bunch of garbage articles that just list the most popular ones or a thousand different opinions from people in the linux community all cannibalising each other fighting over which is best. If you don't know anything about Linux it makes it very difficult when you can't even choose which distribution to use, and then no matter what you choose will end up being told "you shouldn't have picked xyz because it's not good at something, you should have picked this distribution that I like instead".

 

27 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

So many linux gamers try to have an Nvidia and and AMD GPU (or APU) then have the AMD GPU be the main display out with Nvidia being available for NVENC use or for pass through or CUDA or whatever.  (Makes me wonder how many of his issues would go away if he wasn't trying to rely on Nvidia hardware.  

It just requires ... rethinking ones computer requirements. 

The challenge is to see if regular gamers could switch over to Linux. According to the Steam Hardware Survey more than 75% of systems are using Nvidia GPUs. Using an Nvidia GPU is reasonable in the context of the challenge as it is representative of the experience most regular gamers would face. Most people aren't running a dual GPU system with an AMD and Nvidia graphics card, especially these days with GPU prices.

 

Remember that both Linus and Luke are using their personal systems for the challenge. Their systems work fine in Windows and if their experience is that when they try to switch over to Linux they face issues with their hardware then that's the experience they have and what they're going to share.

 

This is not a video series showing "The best Linux OS" or "how to build the best linux PC". This is two regular people switching over to Linux and sharing their experience along the way. If hardware support is an issue people new to linux are going to face - which is the point you are making by saying they're using the wrong hardware - then it's entirely fair and reasonable for Linus and Luke to share the experiences and issues they have with hardware support.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Spotty

[Bramimond]

5 hours ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

I don't remember ever needing to go to github to fix windows.

I've been using Linux for about 20 years now and I never had to go to github to fix anything. I installed Linux on my parent's computers, too, for about an equally long period of time and basically never have to deal with any tech problems, since things don't randomly break on their own.

 

The problem is trying to run Windows games on a platform they weren't intended for. This is by definition no-man's-land and there are going to be dragons there. Framing it like Windows games should just run without issues on a different platform is dishonest in my opinion. You want to play Playstation games, you get a Playstation. You want to play Windows games, you get Windows. I don't know why people would need the ability to play games from a different platform before even considering using Linux. For me not being spied on by my own operating system is enough of a reason to not use Windows. Or Chrome. Or Steam. Or Discord. Or Google. "But how can you deal with all these inconveniences? All you have to do is let yourself being spied on and everything will be much easier." To that, I truly do not know what to say.

[akio123008]

3 minutes ago, Arika S said:

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths people will go to make sure others know that linux isnt the problem.

Exactly.

 

Linux on desktop is a pain. Call me a Windows fanboy or whatever, but I ain't moving to Linux any time soon. I'd rather even use macos.

 

I am actually not unfamiliar with Linux, and I use it for servers/specific application machines all the time. But for my daily driver desktop machine, no thanks. 

 

To a lot of people here, a computer is like a hobby, and screwing around with it to get stuff to work isn't a big deal, (it used to be for me too) but to me now my daily driver computer is simply a tool that needs to work. I want to put as little time or effort into it as possible. I don't want to think about the computer, I want to think about what I use the computer for. 

 

 

[creesch]

5 minutes ago, Sho2048 said:

Except you do?

Except I really don't. At the very least I am not attempting to which I would hope would have been clear. So is it maybe possible to try and move past that and look at it from a different angle. Generally speaking that leads to more constructive discussions where people realize they might convey things in a different way and try to understand what the other means without going into circles. 

 

Quote

And in the phrase "Linux is for developers" you're literally assuming that the intent behind Linux is to make things hard if you take it at the words.

Again no, not at all. And please don't respond by echoing back that I am. What I am saying here is that this is not what is meant by saying Linux is for developers. I haven't talked about the intended use of Linux anywhere, at least not intentionally. What Linux means by that and certainly what I mean by that phrase is that state the linux eco system is in it is very likely that anyone who starts using a Linux distro will need to pick up more technical knowledge and skills than they otherwise would need to on other platforms in comparision. No, I am not saying that is intentional because that very much is not the case. It simply is an observation about the current state of the Linux eco system in regards of desktop environments. 

 

Quote

 a lot of problems that are related to a lack of funding, a lack of support and sure, even boycott for a time.

Yes, agreed those are all reasons behind and non of them have anything to do with intent which again I never mentioned anywhere. 

 

Quote

Gentoo is for technically inclined people. Linux is not Gentoo.

Yeah I know? I am not entirely sure what the point is you are trying to make here. 

 

Quote

Even more aggravating, Linus says that "Linux is for developers because I have to go to Github" because he literally has hardware that is not supported and he's trying to make it work like a developer would instead of stopping and understanding that no, PS5 games do not work on Xbox and if there will ever be a hack to make them work, it's gonna be on Github. What he should have said is "if you have hardware that is not supported, give up or get technical, that's not the fault of Linux but the fault of companies not supporting it".

 

To be honest, you are getting mad at the wrong people. Linus is not blaming Linux for all of this, he has been very clear in these videos that it is because the manufacture doesn't support it. He even states outright that he expected it not to work at all and have to find a different solution but then came across the github repo which he attempted to give a go. Which isn't unreasonable at all, anyone trying out Linux for the first time finding that their hardware isn't supported out of the box will first explore options to get it to work before throwing money at the issue by buying new hardware. It also means that once again you either need to research all your hardware before you but it and attempt to switch to linux or need to venture into technical territory in order to attempt to get hardware to work anyway. Like I said in my previous comment it means that regardless of the route a Linux user will need to invest more time and effort in order to get their system up and running. 

Now if you really want to dig your heels in you could now keep arguing that this still isn't really being a developer. And yeah, strictly speaking you are right but then you also made your entire point about someone using a slightly overexaggerated term. 

 

Quote

But I know, "Linux is for developers" is a four word phrase that sounds condescending and a surefire way to push users to agree with him, get revenge for all those "Windows has virus and Linux has not" and sound like a smartass.

With all due respect this is just you pulling something out of thin air. 

 

Quote

Dude, the web is already the most popular app platform in the world. Native on the desktop is slowly becoming less and less popular and the most popular software is already just "browser apps in containers". Even most Microsoft stuff is either React Native, or React on Microsoft's forked Electron, and that stuff runs in the browser too.

Can we not shift goalposts? This discussion is already going all over the place as it is. Again, technically you do have a point except that we just talked about hardware support which still can be a factor and that you are now completely ignoring the focus of this video series. The focus being the experience of gaming on Linux for Luke and Linus. Which Wine developers as well as Valve in the past few years (decades even) have put in a lot of money and effort so it isn't unreasonable to explore what those efforts have brought so far. I mean we can going back to "you can't reasonably expect to have windows things work on Linux" but let's be real, a lot of developers have been trying to do exactly that with Wine, CrossOver and more recently of course Proton. So again seeing what the state is of all the effort of these projects is a perfectly fine video subject. 

 

Quote

 but "Linux" does not really exist. Ubuntu is for everyone about as much as Windows is for everyone. You'll find people missing all sorts of things in Windows too - so much that Microsoft had to include the bash in it, and still there is no Sketch.app for Windows (better use Figma in the browser). And not everyone enjoys gaming on a PC either, it's not as simple as consoles.

 

What really are you trying to say with this? It feels like arguing for the sake of arguing. 

 

If after this you still are under the impression that I am blaming Linux (or any distro specifically) for anything then I'll just have to ask you to go back and actually read what I said. I think I have made myself clear enough in this entire conversation and it isn't as binary as you make it out to be. As I feel like I am just repeating myself at this point I am just going to step out of this specific discussion and wish you a good day regardless

 

 

15 minutes ago, muizzsiddique said:

From my understanding, however, someone who is inexperienced with tech or has basic tech literacy on Windows will still look for a Download button instead of abusing the Save Link As button found on browsers, as that was what the instructions Linus was following literally telling them to do. They still wouldn't have downloaded the file correctly but they would be more competent than Linus here.

 

And then there is the other thing where even Linus has said that when it comes to PC gaming you absolutely will need to tinker with certain things that a beginner user of Windows is not going to know how to do, which is why people buy Xboxes, PlayStations and the Switch.

Saving right click save on a download link isn't actually not that incompetent even more so in the context of someone who has been on the internet for decades. If you see the file being displayed as link in front of you and you hover over it and it displays an url ending with the exact filename then it isn't unreasonable to expect that link will get you the file. Right clicking "save as" for many people simply means that instead of going to the download folder this is a means to download the file to a location where you have control over it. 

It is more or less with the modern internet that you can't always reliable trust that to be the case but historically it was simply servers serving a file. So I'd argue that Linux wasn't actually be less competent than other people but actually a bit too competent for his own good here. Or less charitable, competent in an outdated practice possibly. 

 

That doesn't mean you don't have a point, yes to handle Windows properly you also need a certain level of competence and there are plenty of people who don't manage that either. Although I don't agree that for PC gaming it requires much tinkering these days. I recently bought a lenovo legion laptop for a familymember and was pleasantly suprised by the lack of bloat and the fact that they include fairly decent software to provide the Lenovo specific drivers. We only had to install steam to get it ready to game. Which is basically part of the point, for windows you can buy completely assembled hardware which you know will work and is capable of running games. For Linux distros that is much less so the case. Although if gaming is not your goal there are pretty decent laptops and prebuild desktops out there these day with a fully supported Linux distro on it. 

 

As I tried to tell the other person above it isn't binary and very complex. Some of it in regards to gaming and hardware support just happens to be more complex on Linux for now. 

[finest feck fips]

16 minutes ago, Bramimond said:

I don't know why people would need the ability to play games from a different platform before even considering using Linux. For me not being spied on by my own operating system is enough of a reason to not use Windows.

I basically agree, but the thing is essentially just that network effects are real and powerful. For many gamers, it's the same reason why people have trouble ditching Facebook: sometimes a nasty piece of software becomes a requirement for an important aspect of one's social life.

When playing $TRENDY_RANDOM_PC_GAME as soon as it comes out is a part of your social life, it's hard to leave Windows behind entirely, and if you think of yourself as somewhat technically inclined, it's tempting to try anyway.

You're right that it's pretty wild and wonderful that non-native games can run on Linux at all, and an outright expectation that this should be possible would be deeply misplaced. But it's easy to understand why people might want to get away from Windows but might still feel ‘stuck’ if ditching it completely would impact whether and how they get to spend time with their friends.

If you can stomach Steam, though, there are a ton of titles available that work without any fuss at all. One common (in the Linux gaming community) pairing that would be interesting to see addressed by LTT is a Linux gaming PC + any major console, which gives you really good overall coverage for just being able to play recent games (depending on your genre needs; hardcore multiplayer FPS or RTS gamers won't love that solution)

[Kilrah]

You must have missed that at the exception of his GoXLR one of the big points was precisely that his hardware surprisingly did NOT cause issues, even those he expected...

[Sho2048]

1 hour ago, creesch said:

Except I really don't. At the very least I am not attempting to which I would hope would have been clear. So is it maybe possible to try and move past that and look at it from a different angle. Generally speaking that leads to more constructive discussions where people realize they might convey things in a different way and try to understand what the other means without going into circles. 

 

Again no, not at all. And please don't respond by echoing back that I am. What I am saying here is that this is not what is meant by saying Linux is for developers. I haven't talked about the intended use of Linux anywhere, at least not intentionally. What Linux means by that and certainly what I mean by that phrase is that state the linux eco system is in it is very likely that anyone who starts using a Linux distro will need to pick up more technical knowledge and skills than they otherwise would need to on other platforms in comparision. No, I am not saying that is intentional because that very much is not the case. It simply is an observation about the current state of the Linux eco system in regards of desktop environments. 

 

Yes, agreed those are all reasons behind and non of them have anything to do with intent which again I never mentioned anywhere. 

 

Yeah I know? I am not entirely sure what the point is you are trying to make here. 

 

 

To be honest, you are getting mad at the wrong people. Linus is not blaming Linux for all of this, he has been very clear in these videos that it is because the manufacture doesn't support it. He even states outright that he expected it not to work at all and have to find a different solution but then came across the github repo which he attempted to give a go. Which isn't unreasonable at all, anyone trying out Linux for the first time finding that their hardware isn't supported out of the box will first explore options to get it to work before throwing money at the issue by buying new hardware. It also means that once again you either need to research all your hardware before you but it and attempt to switch to linux or need to venture into technical territory in order to attempt to get hardware to work anyway. Like I said in my previous comment it means that regardless of the route a Linux user will need to invest more time and effort in order to get their system up and running. 

Now if you really want to dig your heels in you could now keep arguing that this still isn't really being a developer. And yeah, strictly speaking you are right but then you also made your entire point about someone using a slightly overexaggerated term. 

 

With all due respect this is just you pulling something out of thin air. 

 

Can we not shift goalposts? This discussion is already going all over the place as it is. Again, technically you do have a point except that we just talked about hardware support which still can be a factor and that you are now completely ignoring the focus of this video series. The focus being the experience of gaming on Linux for Luke and Linus. Which Wine developers as well as Valve in the past few years (decades even) have put in a lot of money and effort so it isn't unreasonable to explore what those efforts have brought so far. I mean we can going back to "you can't reasonably expect to have windows things work on Linux" but let's be real, a lot of developers have been trying to do exactly that with Wine, CrossOver and more recently of course Proton. So again seeing what the state is of all the effort of these projects is a perfectly fine video subject. 

 

 

What really are you trying to say with this? It feels like arguing for the sake of arguing. 

 

If after this you still are under the impression that I am blaming Linux (or any distro specifically) for anything then I'll just have to ask you to go back and actually read what I said. I think I have made myself clear enough in this entire conversation and it isn't as binary as you make it out to be. As I feel like I am just repeating myself at this point I am just going to step out of this specific discussion and wish you a good day regardless

 

If you do not recognize that those words have a very different meaning than you're implying, there is really no point in arguing, just like there is no point in arguing when you're convinced that some non standard stuff should be "basic computer functionality" while it's basically written to only work for Windows. You're literally setting the goal post in the sky so that you can argue that Linux is not user friendly because it doesn't resolve around Linus's exotic hardware.

 

What you comunicate by "if you have to go to a tool for developers to use Linux then Linux is for developers" is perfectly clear, even if you don't mean it. Take responsability of the words instead of trying to turn them into something they are not. And whenever he says "Linux does not support this" it adds to the misunderstanding that it is the fault of Linux that it does not work, or the fault of the community.

 

I think he also said that the Pop store tried to brick his install, which is factually wrong, and could've been avoided by just running the updates instead of going straight for the nuclear option of hacks. Just like he goes straight for apt in Manjaro. He simply is biased that Linux is a thing for nerds.

[InstantNewt]

 

1 hour ago, Arika S said:

 

Fixed.

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths people will go to make sure others know that linux isnt the problem. It's aways someone else's,  or something else's problem.

Yup. Linux users will blame literally everything except the OS. It’s ridiculous to assume the hardware is the problem.

[IkeaGnome]

1 minute ago, InstantNewt said:

 

Yup. Linux users will blame literally everything except the OS. It’s ridiculous to assume the hardware is the problem.

Yes and no. If the Magic Mouse doesn't work with Windows, is that a Windows problem, or a hardware problem? Or is that just a device not being designed with Windows in mind? With how small the market share of OS that Linux has, it's not surprising that niche things like the GoXLR aren't designed with Linux in mind. It's designed as a Windows macro keyboard. Neither is the problem there. 

If my 10mm socket doesn't fit right on a 1/2 bolt, which is to blame? (besides us for not being on Metric)

[Sho2048]

1 hour ago, Arika S said:

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths people will go to make sure others know that linux isnt the problem. It's aways someone else's,  or something else's problem.

 

I suppose Linux's kernel should be magic and include drivers and support for anything mankind has ever created, in the past, present and future. There should be some magic sofftware inside that automagically "gets it" without the company who makes the hardware does anything, including coding any driver, publishing any spec or anything else. Yes. It entirely lies on Linux. Linux is the problem whenever manufacturers don't make drivers for Linux.

 

I am done trying to discuss this by the way. You're not gonna turn reality upside down.

 

[Arika]

1 minute ago, Sho2048 said:

I suppose Linux's kernel should be magic and include drivers and support for anything mankind has ever created, in the past, present and future. There should be some magic sofftware inside that automagically "gets it"

The Windows and MacOS generic drivers seem to work pretty damn well with random hardware as soon as it's connected before any actual dedicated drivers or software are downloaded

 

So with how much people drool over how good linux is and how it's going to kill window, yeah i would expect that it would have better functionality than it actually does.

Anything more specialized than a mouse and keyboard i guess is considered "exotic" hardware and should just be thrown up in the air and written off as "well you can't expect everything to just work".

 

Hell i can't even expect basic things to work on Linux with the amount of issues i've had with it.

 

 

[Sho2048]

Just now, Arika S said:

The Windows and MacOS generic drivers seem to work pretty damn well with random hardware as soon as it's connected before any actual dedicated drivers or software are downloaded

 

They don't. Windows runs Windows Update in the background and only drives the peripheral until then with the basic drivers, the sort of generic drivers that you can find in Linux too. For example, a display is ran with the VESA drivers in Linux and Basic Display Adaptor in Windows. Keyboards, midi controllers, mouses, some printers, some network cards, some audio interfaces, they simply follow a standard that works without needing specialized drivers, on all platforms. The problem comes with stuff like special features like RGB and shit. And the problem is that there is no driver for Linux because the manufacturer can't be bothered.

2 minutes ago, Arika S said:

So with how much people drool over how good linux is and how it's going to kill window, yeah i would expect that it would have better functionality than it actually does.

 

You should not be influenced by some random fanboy on the internet to judge something for what it is.

3 minutes ago, Arika S said:

Anything more specialized than a mouse and keyboard i guess is considered "exotic" hardware and should just be thrown up in the air and written off as "well you can't expect everything to just work".

 

Yes. That is literally how it works. Linux has no fucking idea how to make those calls to the hardware. Try hooking up this stuff to Windows without an internet connection and most stuff will work exactly the same that it does on Linux.

4 minutes ago, Arika S said:

Hell i can't even expect basic things to work on Linux with the amount of issues i've had with it.

 

That's not an argument.

[Hachi_Roku256563]

1 minute ago, Sho2048 said:

ry hooking up this stuff to Windows without an internet connection

At least windows can talk to my network card to get its proper driver from the internet

Unlike linux which cant even load some basic driver so you have to use ANOTHER computer to try and get it working
(I never could find or make a driver work)

Furthermore Windows Is better with video cards

You have the Generic Drivers and the Specific ones

And that is it

Linux has Generic

and Then a confusing mess

 

[Sho2048]

Just now, Hachi_Roku256563 said:

At least windows can talk to my network card to get its proper driver from the internet

Unlike linux which cant even load some basic driver so you have to use ANOTHER computer to try and get it working
(I never could find or make a driver work)

Furthermore Windows Is better with video cards

You have the Generic Drivers and the Specific ones

And that is it

Linux has Generic

and Then a confusing mess

 

It's the same in Linux. You're just elevating your experience to the norm.