Nvidia Sold $175 Million Worth of GeForce RTX 30 GPUs To Crypto Miners

[Bombastinator]

6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Or you could watch Gamers Nexus and get far more accurate costs and factory tours, what things cost is well known already. What is not known as it changes all the time is what AMD and Nvidia actually charge for the GPU packages and memory. So if you want to know the real cost of different GPU coolers and board designs watch Gamers Nexus, if you want unsubstantiated rumors and wild asses guess watch the many various YouTube channels that peddle nonsense.

I do. BOM sometimes doesn’t even include parts like that for that reason.  I don’t recall GN stating a BOM for any of the recent AMD cards.  The did talk about a BOM for amphere, and they think that because of it partner cards are going to be quite a bit higher than NVIDIA’s MSRP.  If GN produced a BOM price for any big Navi cards it would be interesting to hear.

[Blademaster91]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Or you could watch Gamers Nexus and get far more accurate costs and factory tours, what things cost is well known already. What is not known as it changes all the time is what AMD and Nvidia actually charge for the GPU packages and memory. So if you want to know the real cost of different GPU coolers and board designs watch Gamers Nexus, if you want unsubstantiated rumors and wild ass guesses watch the many various YouTube channels that peddle nonsense.

Tech youtubers only report on what gets confirmed by a source or the company themselves, I really doubt Nvidia would admit they're selling chips to miners, or AMD say they're pissed the AIBs are selling their cards for $150-200 over the base $649 MSRP. Some of the gossip stuff could be true, but who knows how much as you say its wild guesses, I don't bother with the rumor mill channels myself.

[Master Disaster]

11 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

That applies to “source” stuff though.  This is why BOM is different. It doesn’t require “sourcing”. you look at the board, you get the code numbers and manufacturer of the chips you look up the cost of said chips in lots of X, and you do the math.  Compared to most gossip column stuff ridiculously cut and dried.  So hard a number such a thing might have been done as background work just to check the veracity and accuracy of sources. The problem is inventory. Those costs change over time, and an AIB will have inventory of other parts. 

I remember a few years back now one of the Techtubers? (possible I'm misremembering as my memory is fuzzy on the specifics) did a component level cost breakdown for some new hardware that had just launched and it caused a bit of internet drama.

 

It was very quickly debunked since the numbers he produced only took into account the base cost of manufacturing the thing. It was pointed out that businesses also have operating costs (rent, electricity, gas, air, water etc), business tax, employee wages, RnD costs, marketing costs, transport costs, storage cost and other things that its simply impossible to know the specifics details of without working for the company.

 

Profit margin on an item is more than MSRP - manufacturing cost = profit.

 

Edit - I think it might have been an iPhone cost breakdown?

[leadeater]

9 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

I do. BOM sometimes doesn’t even include parts like that for that reason.  I don’t recall GN stating a BOM for any of the recent AMD cards.  The did talk about a BOM for amphere, and they think that because of it partner cards are going to be quite a bit higher than NVIDIA’s MSRP.  If GN produced a BOM price for any big Navi cards it would be interesting to hear.

They don't need to, the cost of coolers and board designs don't change generation to generation. For example the STRIX cooler costs the same on the 6800 XT as it does on the 5700 XT, even when there are design changes. The costs do not change much. What does change is the cost of the GPU package and AIB are not told the cost of these until after the official public launch, yes this is true.

 

Like I said we know the cost of everything already except for the cost of the GPU package and memory and we will never know as that information is not, and will never be, allowed to be disclosed. AIB have commented that due to not being told the MSRP until after official launch there have been times where the margin has been so bad there was a potential for a loss on the product, hence cards not selling at or near MSRP.

 

As is the case with the reference 6800 series, those are actually made by contract by AMD, the AIB are just putting stickers on them, so the fact that they are selling at or very near MSRP is meaningless in regards to AIB custom design cards because the costing and supply contract is completely different.

[Bombastinator]

3 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

I remember a few years back now one of the Techtubers? (possible I'm misremembering as my memory is fuzzy on the specifics) did a component level cost breakdown for some new hardware that had just launched and it caused a bit of internet drama.

 

It was very quickly debunked since the numbers he produced only took into account the base cost of manufacturing the thing. It was pointed out that businesses also have operating costs (rent, electricity, gas, air, water etc), business tax, employee wages, RnD costs, marketing costs, transport costs, storage cost and other things that its simply impossible to know the specifics details of without working for the company.

 

Profit margin on an item is more than MSRP - manufacturing cost = profit.

Which is why BOM is only a partial cost factor.  There is more than one company though.  For both AMD and NVIDIA to radically miscalculate MSRP they would have to both be either completely ignorant of this or just not care.  This could explain why NVIDIA is making more competitive cards. If they can make a card that much cheaper than a partner while accruing the same costs why even have them?

[Master Disaster]

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

Which is why BOM is only a partial cost factor.  There is more than one company though.  For both AMD and NVIDIA to radically miscalculate MSRP they would have to both be either completely ignorant of this or just not care.  This could explain why NVIDIA is making more competitive cards. If they can make a card that much cheaper than a partner while accruing the same costs why even have them?

I cannot answer that. My best guess would be manufacturing capacity but I don't work in the industry so anything I say would be pure speculation.

[leadeater]

18 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

or AMD say they're pissed the AIBs are selling their cards for $150-200 over the base $649 MSRP.

No the reverse is the case, AIB are pissed at AMD for pricing the GPU packages at an impossible cost to get anywhere near the MSRP. Higher end cards are not supposed to be, and never have been, at the reference MSRP but even the cheaper ones that are supposed to be MSRP equivalent cannot be so due to AMD charging more than which is possible to do so without making a loss.

 

If AMD wants to see the prices come down THEY have to lower THEIR supply cost to AIBs. AIBs will not sell at a loss. If you want a STRIX level card there is a bare minimum this can cost you and right now as it is the price is high because of AMD not the AIBs. The STRIX cooler didn't suddenly get more expensive, neither did the board design, and they aren't intentionally charging the wholesale supply channel more either. AIBs have already off the record directly pointed the blame for pricing at AMD, ball is in AMD's court right now.

[Bombastinator]

9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

They don't need to, the cost of coolers and board designs don't change generation to generation. For example the STRIX cooler costs the same on the 6800 XT as it does on the 5700 XT, even when there are design changes. The costs do not change much. What does change is the cost of the GPU package and AIB are not told the cost of these until after the official public launch, yes this is true.

 

Like I said we know the cost of everything already except for the cost of the GPU package and memory and we will never know as that information is not, and will never be, allowed to be disclosed. AIB have commented that due to not being told the MSRP until after official launch there have been times where the margin has been so bad there was a potential for a loss on the product, hence cards not selling at or near MSRP.

 

As is the case with the reference 6800 series, those are actually made by contract by AMD, the AIB are just putting stickers on them, so the fact that they are selling at or very near MSRP is meaningless in regards to AIB custom design cards because the costing and supply contract is completely different.

Yes the cost of everything but the stuff supplied by AMD/Nvidia would be the BOM, with speculation of cost of the AMD/Nvidia parts added.  which doesn’t apply to reference cards except that BOM can be roughly calculated by looking at them. AMD and Nvidia both have to pay the costs for those reference cards though, so unless they’re deliberately selling reference cards to the AIBs at a loss and running as loss leaders which strikes me as unlikely, they would have to have those costs worked out.

[Bombastinator]

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

No the reverse is the case, AIB are pissed at AMD for pricing the GPU packages at an impossible cost to get anywhere near the MSRP. Higher end cards are not supposed to be, and never have been, at the reference MSRP but even the cheaper ones that are supposed to be MSRP equivalent cannot be so due to AMD charging more than which is possible to do so without making a loss.

 

If AMD wants to see the prices come down THEY have to lower THEIR supply cost to AIBs. AIBs will not sell at a loss. If you want a STRIX level card there is a bare minimum this can cost you and right now as it is the price is high because of AMD not the AIBs. The STRIX cooler didn't suddenly get more expensive, neither did the board design, and they aren't intentionally charging the wholesale supply channel more either. AIBs have already off the record directly pointed the blame for pricing at AMD, ball is in AMD's court right now.

So are they selling a full reference card for AIBs to put a sticker on or are they just selling parts?

[leadeater]

7 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Yes the cost of everything but the stuff supplied by AMD/Nvidia would be the BOM, with speculation of cost of the AMD/Nvidia parts added.  which doesn’t apply to reference cards except that BOM can be roughly calculated by looking at them. AMD and Nvidia both have to pay the costs for those reference cards though, so unless they’re deliberately selling reference cards to the AIBs at a loss and running as loss leaders which strikes me as unlikely, they would have to have those costs worked out.

I think you misunderstand the situation. The reference design cards sold under than AIB brand names are selling at MSRP, the only time this is not the case is a retailer or wholesaler markup but largely that isn't happening and reference cards are selling at MSRP.

 

The issue at hand right now that reviewers have complained about is when they got their AIB custom cards to review they were not told the MSRP of these until after they reviewed the card, or were only told after persistent badgering to get the price. Upon being told the pricing it was then learned that custom AIB cards were going to be nowhere near the MSRP of the reference cards, not the typical amount more that is normal and not unexpected but so much more it is on the level of an entire GPU product class up. We don't generally expect to be given a reference design MSRP then be paying the cost of the next level of card up reference design cost for the lesser card AIB custom design, no you'd be stupid to do so and just buy the actually higher tier card even though it would be a reference design.

 

The pricing issue is nothing to do with the reference cards.

[Bombastinator]

8 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I think you misunderstand the situation. The reference design cards sold under than AIB brand names are selling at MSRP, the only time this is not the case is a retailer or wholesaler markup but largely that isn't happening and reference cards are selling at MSRP.

 

The issue at hand right now that reviewers have complained about is when they got their AIB custom cards to review they were not told the MSRP of these until after they reviewed the card, or were only told after persistent badgering to get the price. Upon being told the pricing it was then learned that custom AIB cards were going to be nowhere near the MSRP of the reference cards, not the typical amount more that is normal and not unexpected but so much more it is on the level of an entire GPU product class up. We don't generally expect to be given a reference design MSRP then be paying the cost of the next level of card up reference design cost for the lesser card AIB custom design, no you'd be stupid to do so and just buy the actually higher tier card even though it would be a reference design.

 

The pricing issue is nothing to do with the reference cards.

Are you referring to this?  It dropped as far as I can tell about 2 hours ago. Didn’t notice.  I was busy typing here. I only just saw it. 

They are talking about blaming AMD, but the issue is apparently the AIBs are only releasing premium canes and not base model cards. Which means it would t be an AMD issue but an AIB issue. 
 

im forgetting what the original thing was even about here.  I defended MLIB I believe. The original thing was crypto miners, and how affecting $175 million of sales to crypto miners affected availability of cards. 

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

So are they selling a full reference card for AIBs to put a sticker on or are they just selling parts?

That situation wasn't made entirely clear but I would imagine the AIBs are assembling the cards on behalf of AMD. The contract relationship for the reference cards are completely different to the custom design cards, it's more a case of AMD paying for a service offered by the AIBs, assembly + packaging and distribution. So the only cost the AIB is really incurring is cost to put the cards together and distribute them, they have no part in the design of the cards or the cost of the parts so when it comes to getting down to the final MSRP of the cards that's on AMD as the AIB will be setting a price that AMD has to agree to for that assembly service so if the quoted cost by the AIB is higher than AMD wants they either have to negotiate a lower price somehow, find a way to lower the cost of the parts on their end, or raise the MSRP.

[Moonzy]

2 hours ago, RejZoR said:

That's the point of ecosystems, guaranteed loyal user base that sticks with you when performance crown is less than ideal.

idk how loyal are gamers

 

how many people jumped from intel bandwagon to AMD recently?

[leadeater]

10 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

They are talking about blaming AMD, but the issue is apparently the AIBs are only releasing premium canes and not base model cards. Which means it would t be an AMD issue but an AIB issue. 

Not just that video but also in the review videos of the cards. And obviously the AIBs are only releasing the higher end cards now, that's what the AIBs want to sell and that's what they compete on in the market. And it makes zero difference to the issue, like I said we know the cost of the boards and coolers so you can make a supposition about the cost of the unknown part which is the GPU package and it doesn't take much critical thinking to realize that based on the knowns the unknown thing has to cost more than which it is possible to sell these cards at a more regular ~$80-$100 more than the reference cards.

 

The other factor is the reference 6800 series cards are extremely good, both the cooler and the board design and component choice. The bar has been set very high so there is little reason to design and sell cheaper custom designs as the reference design is already that good and the parts costing simply does not allow for it anyway. Would you buy an actually worse card at the MSRP of the reference card or slightly more just because it's a "custom AIB design", I know I wouldn't.

 

Watch the reviews, see how little improvement there actually is even for these much higher end custom designs. AIBs are left with only one choice, these high end high cost cards to try and justify the increased price because it is AMD that is making it impossible for these to be any cheaper.

[Blademaster91]

31 minutes ago, leadeater said:

No the reverse is the case, AIB are pissed at AMD for pricing the GPU packages at an impossible cost to get anywhere near the MSRP. Higher end cards are not supposed to be, and never have been, at the reference MSRP but even the cheaper ones that are supposed to be MSRP equivalent cannot be so due to AMD charging more than which is possible to do so without making a loss.

So its a similar complaint to the AIBs essentially having no profit on Nvidia 30 series cards. Although I think there was some rumor on Nvidia giving their AIBs a discount on board cost, maybe how companies like Asus can make a card that has better cooling than the FE design at only slightly more than base MSRP.

32 minutes ago, leadeater said:

If AMD wants to see the prices come down THEY have to lower THEIR supply cost to AIBs. AIBs will not sell at a loss. If you want a STRIX level card there is a bare minimum this can cost you and right now as it is the price is high because of AMD not the AIBs. The STRIX cooler didn't suddenly get more expensive, neither did the board design, and they aren't intentionally charging the wholesale supply channel more either. AIBs have already off the record directly pointed the blame for pricing at AMD, ball is in AMD's court right now.

Supply cost could be related to low supplies, but doesn't cooler and board design get more costly as GPU's require more cooling,VRM's, and more board layers to handle faster VRAM? A card can suddenly get more expensive if it requires a 3 slot cooler, and more expensive MLCC caps. I would much rather the AIBs cut some of their cost by getting rid of the flashy gamer crap and RGB lights, but I guess gamers wouldn't buy it.

[Blademaster91]

12 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

idk how loyal are gamers

 

how many people jumped from intel bandwagon to AMD recently?

Gamers aren't loyal at all, with cpus anyway lol.

Although gamers will buy nvidia because of the name, AMD still has the reputation "bUt dRiVerS baD".

[leadeater]

25 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

but doesn't cooler and board design get more costly as GPU's require more cooling,VRM's, and more board layers to handle faster VRAM?

The coolers are the same, well other than the Nitro+, as previous generations and even when the designs change the cost of them doesn't. There's slight changes to the coolers designs each generation and when GN talks about the cooler cost this is included in it. The coolers have always been able to dissipate far more heat the the GPUs produce and even then the higher tier AIB cards have increased power limits and from memory I think, at least for Nvidia, the percentage they allow over the reference spec has been getting lower with each generation as the reference board power has been increasing, basically there isn't really that massive a difference in board power between 20 series and 30 series on the very high end cards and the solution to that is make a slightly taller fin stack on the cooler which costs basically next to nothing.

 

Quote

Currently, NVIDIA’s goal to hit an MSRP of $250 to $300 is predicated on the usage of a GPU heatsink-fan that costs between $4 and $5. GN has received the exact pricing from partners, but in order to protect our sources, we’ve slightly obfuscated the range so that NVIDIA can’t pinpoint the leak by looking at exact dollars and cents values. For perspective, we’re told that a $4 to $5 cooler would get you an Intel stock-cooler style solution, commonly called a “flower cooler” by the supply factories we’ve toured in China, except applied to a GPU. We were told by partners that their high-end models, often just below the flagship, cost around $50 for the cooling solution. That includes the backplate, the shroud, the RGB LEDs, the thermal pads (this cost can be high if using good pads), the past, the metal finstack, any present vapor chambers, and the tooling.

https://www.gamersnexus.net/news-pc/3628-hw-news-nvidia-msrp-realism-debated-ryzen-5000-supply-pcie-6

 

But the long and the short of it the costs of the coolers between Nvidia cards and AMD cards are not any different, the same AIB complaints in the linked article apply.

[Bombastinator]

13 minutes ago, leadeater said:

The coolers are the same, well other than the Nitro+, as previous generations and even when the designs change the cost of them doesn't. There's slight changes to the coolers designs each generation and when GN talks about the cooler cost this is included in it. The coolers have always been able to dissipate far more heat the the GPUs produce and even then the higher tier AIB cards have increased power limits and from memory I think, at least for Nvidia, the percentage they allow over the reference spec has been getting lower with each generation as the reference board power has been increasing, basically there isn't really that massive a difference in board power between 20 series and 30 series on the very high end cards and the solution to that is make a slightly taller fin stack on the cooler which costs basically next to nothing.

 

https://www.gamersnexus.net/news-pc/3628-hw-news-nvidia-msrp-realism-debated-ryzen-5000-supply-pcie-6

 

But the long and the short of it the costs of the coolers between Nvidia cards and AMD cards are not any different, the same AIB complaints in the linked article apply.

There are some other interesting parts as well.  you’re also saying that the cooler cost is tiny compared to the rest of the card, and the Nvidia card BOM cost (i assume without gpu “kit”) is $100USD less than the AMD one.    This seems unlikely to me since the AMD one requires less voltage and whatnot but I suppose it might be the case.  The AMD “kit” would not include gddr6x memory for one. 

[Bombastinator]

39 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Gamers aren't loyal at all, with cpus anyway lol.

Although gamers will buy nvidia because of the name, AMD still has the reputation "bUt dRiVerS baD".

I also think brand loyalty is limited.  Sure there are people that will be especially because there are only two players.  A person who will “never buy an AMD or Nvidia card again” are by definition stuck with only one option.  This is one reason amongst many why duopoly doesn’t work well. 
Gamers who aren’t stuck care about if their games will run.  Nvidia seems to be working that angle hard by locking AMD out of heavily publicized titles like cyberpunk2077. AMD has to reply with pure muscle to get past without the optimization advantage NVIDIA is buying for itself. 

[Deli]

20 hours ago, Wheresmehammer said:

Completely agree, they spent their share to get the product.

After the launch event Jensen bragged about how great the "GAMING" performance of the new cards has. Then they sell all the cards to miners. Make sense.

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

That situation wasn't made entirely clear but I would imagine the AIBs are assembling the cards on behalf of AMD. The contract relationship for the reference cards are completely different to the custom design cards, it's more a case of AMD paying for a service offered by the AIBs, assembly + packaging and distribution. So the only cost the AIB is really incurring is cost to put the cards together and distribute them, they have no part in the design of the cards or the cost of the parts so when it comes to getting down to the final MSRP of the cards that's on AMD as the AIB will be setting a price that AMD has to agree to for that assembly service so if the quoted cost by the AIB is higher than AMD wants they either have to negotiate a lower price somehow, find a way to lower the cost of the parts on their end, or raise the MSRP.

But I thought you said the AIBs were buying the completed cards from the GPU manufacturer after the GPU manufacturer designed a card and paid a different company to make the reference cards for distribution.

[The Blackhat]

9 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

You can laugh all you want but it's true. AMD doesn't want to sell to miners, they want to sell to gamers.

 

AMD is pissed off that AIBs are selling AIB cards for substantially above MSRP because they want to sell gaming cards to gamers at MSRP.

Yes, I will laugh. I don't think you know how architectural performance works. You can't just turn a slider and have games, rendering, and other important compute work run amazing while crippling mining performance. Navi isn't bad at mining specifically to be bad at mining, it was never a good compute arch to begin with, that's why their folding performance sucks as well as mining. That's not an agenda, that's called product segmentation and CDNA. Not everything is a conspiracy.

[RejZoR]

2 hours ago, Moonzy said:

idk how loyal are gamers

 

how many people jumped from intel bandwagon to AMD recently?

What added value do processors have apart from just raw compute? None. It's not the same on graphic cards side and I know countless people who refuse to go with AMD (Radeon) because they need CUDA (which is ecosystem on its own and its widely popular in compute world, far more than whatever AMD offers or what OpenCL offers). Or they need NVENC. Or in my case I need Fast Sync because I'm not in the mood of buying new 500-800€ high refresh rate monitor just coz my current 144Hz only lacts G-Sync/FreeSync. Or people want RTX Voice for gaming comm. Or people just want playable 4K games with ray tracing thanks to RTX/DLSS combo. As much as we all hate this proprietary crap, it's the ecosystem NVIDIA created and hooked people on it. It may come to a point where Radeon will be faster than NVIDIA and people will still stay with NVIDIA because they need or want this stuff and can forgive few fps less. That's the "loyalty" that miners never have to GPU brands. It's funny you brought up the CPU scenario without thinking what added value CPU's have to user other than just raw performance... wait, there is, but rather niche. QuickSync on Intel CPU's for fast video encoding. That's one of things a lot of people considered as essential for their needs and wouldn't go with AMD no matter what as a result. It's only been recently where Ryzen has so much raw power it's not that important.

[Brooksie359]

10 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

The thing you were saying doesn’t happen. Electronic payments using real rather than crypto currency.

 

I dunno. Perhaps I made a mistake there.  Pretending not to understand is a standard debate tactic when one has been caught flat footed.  It forces the opponent to restate the case and expose the failure while giving the pretender a chance to regroup.  If the other party doesn’t do it perfectly the standard move is to attack that imperfection. I didn’t do that.  I just answered your question as if it was real.  It might have been.  

No I was genuinely confused as to what you were referring to. Normally you use "it" and other nondescript terms after you establish what "it" is. So you are saying electronic payments don't use real money? I am just trying to be clear on what you were saying and not misinterpret it. 

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, Brooksie359 said:

No I was genuinely confused as to what you were referring to. Normally you use "it" and other nondescript terms after you establish what "it" is. So you are saying electronic payments don't use real money? I am just trying to be clear on what you were saying and not misinterpret it. 

Those are called “pronouns”. They may have grown less popular for conversation.  I once had a GURPS barbarian character with the quirk “doesn’t use pronouns” because it sounded so silly to talk like that.  It was a riff on Arnold Schwarzenegger’s Conan character.  That character actually did us pronouns though. Had to stop using it.  Drove the other players nuts.  Bad quirk choice.

 Depends on the definition of “real”. Cash bills or coins? No.  One of the issues with fiat money (which is what I think everyone uses now) is that because it floats it can have near zero value.  West Germany used to imprint strips of metals into their bills to give them a minimum value in instances of hyper inflation.   Periodically the US has a problem where the metal value of their coinage exceeds the value of the coin.  People would create systems to separate out the more valuable coins.  They still pop up occasionally so they still exist.  Happened with silver dollars and quarters, then silver dimes, then nickels (which aren’t made of nickel anymore) then copper pennies.  Twice with those. 

Edited November 28, 2020 by Bombastinator