So Nvidia ...

[oldSock]

Good day everyone,

 

Be warned many of you may not like what i am about to write below.

 

Well If you got this far remember the above before moving forward.

 

Well if you still reading this thank you for keeping an open mind

 

So we are looking at 8k gaming and GPU's that are both power-hungry and powerful at the same time.

 

Now disclaimer I buy second-hand stuff. It is cost effective and really most of the stuff works just fine and yes i got a few DOA parts as well.

 

The thing is NVIDIA is a massive company and they make really good components. Seriously most of their cards last long, does a good job and age reasonably well. As a second hand user i will never deny this. 

 

But what we are essentially seeing is the death of the enthusiast market. Very soon many if not all of us will be getting use to GPU farm subscriptions and hope our ISP providers brought their "A" game to the table.

 

Why so oldSock? Surly if you can afford it just buy the hardware and stop your crying.

 

Look i am ALL for OWNING a nice powerful computer, i am all for keeping my data local and out of the hands of AI algorithms. I am all for privacy. But the cost of ownership when it comes to really powerful hardware is at a point now that a monthly subscription just seems better.

 

Why? Well there is the cost of constant upgrading, basic maintenance, power draw and insurance. It is not just the hardware anymore. These systems really do demand that we put down a fat stack of cash almost every month. If you are in a country with power scarcity, or unreliable power distribution you would know that a UPS is absolutely essential but even then it doesn't solve the problem. Why? Simply put powerful hardware is very susceptible to unstable "dirty" power.

 

So what am i on about?

 

Simple, see NVIDIA builds cards that will draw massive amounts of power and demands high end hardware along side their own products. This means we as users must now seriously consider having proper insurance for something that depreciate in value almost immediately after buying it. We need 1Killowatt+ PSUs to run the hardware and really stable "clean" power to keep it all alive for as long as humanly possible. Now if you add all of this up, why do you want to own this? It literally is a money pit. 

 

So why not rather pay for a service that give you access to above hardware all the time? Let someone else worry about security, insurance, data consumption, power bill, upgrading and maintaining. i as a end user, just want something that works. So if i can fork out some cash to access a desktop that is essentially more powerful than anything i realistically can own and i don't have to pay for all the other stuff, then this becomes a very realistic solution. This means i can have a nice second hand affordable solution and still enjoy "the same if not better" performance then most enthusiasts.

 

So essentially NVIDIA is moving towards this future. Despite the price drop their biggest clients will always be corporate/industrial and we will eventually end up buying access rather then owning. I mean look how easily and effortlessly they tanked their own older generation cards. Now consider how many users really are upset because they spend real bloody money on their rigs. i personally are considering subscription services. i am not their yet but the fact that i as a budget user are looking into it is telling.

 

 

 

 

 

   

[Moonzy]

So basically the higher power draw is concerning?

 

Lower the power limit of the card or buy lower tier card

 

I lowered my 2070S power limit to 70% and see close to no performance impact, below that and it starts dropping real fast though

[oldSock]

3 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

So basically the higher power draw is concerning?

 

Lower the power limit of the card or buy lower tier card

 

I lowered my 2070S power limit to 70% and see close to no performance impact, below that and it starts dropping real fast though

No it is one of my concerns insurance is another along with security and all that stupid stuff. I honestly don't mean to be nasty i really don't. I just want to point out that ownership is getting expensive that is all.

[Moonzy]

3 minutes ago, oldSock said:

I just want to point out that ownership is getting expensive that is all.

It is, I won't deny that

The power draw jump is only this generation though. Really hope it's not a trend to going to need more and more wattages.

[Mateyyy]

On 9/24/2020 at 10:22 AM, oldSock said:

We need 1Killowatt+ PSUs to run the hardware

No..?

If you do, you're running HEDT - and in that case, purchasing beefy PSUs and paying the power bill isn't a problem in the first place, I would imagine.

 

A lot of people seem to have a false idea of how much power the 3080/3090 pull, or at least that's what it looks like to me.

A 3080 pulls ~100W more than a 2080 at stock speeds (FE vs FE) - 550W was plenty for a gaming build with a 2080, but now suddenly people think that you need upwards of 800W if you replace that 2080 with a 3080. How does that work?

 

I was actually surprised to see that Nvidia hasn't set the usual 250W limit for the 3080 - after all that would've potentially made for a bigger performance gap between the 3080 and 3090.

And after all, undervolting and power limits are still a thing. People seem to forget about that also.

[WereCatf]

10 minutes ago, oldSock said:

I just want to point out that ownership is getting expensive that is all

No, it's not. No one is forcing you to keep buying the top-end stuff. It's perfectly feasible to spend a lot less money and still get something quite reasonable and it's equally feasible to keep power-draw down. You are choosing to spend all that money on expensive and/or power-hungry components, it's your choice.

[Moonzy]

9 minutes ago, Mateyyy said:

Nvidia hasn't set the usual 250W limit for the 3080

someone in the zotac card thread posted this

this is my response after you made me realise something

 

after the AIB 3080 failing fiasco, I speculate manufacturer will either lower the power draw, or lower the clock speed with new vbios.

 

honestly this is some shady business, since end user cant measure things accurately.

[Roswell]

There are so many competitive PC genres that require no latency input that I doubt cloud gaming on PC will ever replace local hardware.

[Fatih19]

As if buying a 3080 is a must. Go buy a 3060 or something if you don't like the power draw, no one's forcing you to buy top-end cards that takes up a lot of power. Not to mention efficiencies always increases every generation. This thread smells of tinfoil hat IMO.

43 minutes ago, oldSock said:

i personally are considering subscription services.   

If you mean cloud gaming, no. They have their own niche but running your stuff locally will always have its own advantage.

[Morrie Sells Wigs]

1 hour ago, oldSock said:

Good day everyone,

 

Be warned many of you may not like what i am about to write below.

 

Well If you got this far remember the above before moving forward.

 

Well if you still reading this thank you for keeping an open mind

 

So we are looking at 8k gaming and GPU's that are both power-hungry and powerful at the same time.

 

Now disclaimer I buy second-hand stuff. It is cost effective and really most of the stuff works just fine and yes i got a few DOA parts as well.

 

The thing is NVIDIA is a massive company and they make really good components. Seriously most of their cards last long, does a good job and age reasonably well. As a second hand user i will never deny this. 

 

But what we are essentially seeing is the death of the enthusiast market. Very soon many if not all of us will be getting use to GPU farm subscriptions and hope our ISP providers brought their "A" game to the table.

 

Why so oldSock? Surly if you can afford it just buy the hardware and stop your crying.

 

Look i am ALL for OWNING a nice powerful computer, i am all for keeping my data local and out of the hands of AI algorithms. I am all for privacy. But the cost of ownership when it comes to really powerful hardware is at a point now that a monthly subscription just seems better.

 

Why? Well there is the cost of constant upgrading, basic maintenance, power draw and insurance. It is not just the hardware anymore. These systems really do demand that we put down a fat stack of cash almost every month. If you are in a country with power scarcity, or unreliable power distribution you would know that a UPS is absolutely essential but even then it doesn't solve the problem. Why? Simply put powerful hardware is very susceptible to unstable "dirty" power.

 

So what am i on about?

 

Simple, see NVIDIA builds cards that will draw massive amounts of power and demands high end hardware along side their own products. This means we as users must now seriously consider having proper insurance for something that depreciate in value almost immediately after buying it. We need 1Killowatt+ PSUs to run the hardware and really stable "clean" power to keep it all alive for as long as humanly possible. Now if you add all of this up, why do you want to own this? It literally is a money pit. 

 

So why not rather pay for a service that give you access to above hardware all the time? Let someone else worry about security, insurance, data consumption, power bill, upgrading and maintaining. i as a end user, just want something that works. So if i can fork out some cash to access a desktop that is essentially more powerful than anything i realistically can own and i don't have to pay for all the other stuff, then this becomes a very realistic solution. This means i can have a nice second hand affordable solution and still enjoy "the same if not better" performance then most enthusiasts.

 

So essentially NVIDIA is moving towards this future. Despite the price drop their biggest clients will always be corporate/industrial and we will eventually end up buying access rather then owning. I mean look how easily and effortlessly they tanked their own older generation cards. Now consider how many users really are upset because they spend real bloody money on their rigs. i personally are considering subscription services. i am not their yet but the fact that i as a budget user are looking into it is telling.

 

 

 

 

 

   

Great post.

 

 

[oldSock]

1 hour ago, Mateyyy said:

No..?

If you do, you're on HEDT - and if you're on HEDT, purchasing beefy PSUs and paying the power bill isn't a problem in the first place, I would imagine.

 

A lot of people seem to have a false idea of how much power the 3080/3090 pull, or at least that's what it looks like to me.

A 3080 pulls ~100W more than a 2080 at stock speeds (FE vs FE) - 550W was plenty for a gaming build with a 2080, but now suddenly people think that you need upwards of 800W if you replace that 2080 with a 3080. How does that work?

 

I was actually surprised to see that Nvidia hasn't set the usual 250W limit for the 3080 - after all that would've potentially made for a bigger performance gap between the 3080 and 3090.

And after all, undervolting and power limits are still a thing. People seem to forget about that also.

At this point in time i actually blame YouTube. Many builders use massive overly powerful PSUs for their rigs. At some point i personally am guilty of assuming that this is what we need. As far as research goes, i do run a second hand system on a 500Watt PSU it is more then enough for me and it works well. The situation however is "requirements" i for example need a GPU that is reasonable, i need a hard drive that is fast and i actually use  90% of my ram and 70% of my GPU. So for me it is a "must have" hence why i buy second hand.  

 

Why am i looking into a service that can provide a desktop experience? Simply put when my work demands a upgrade i have to consider running cost and other hidden costs along side the upgrade. So for me at some point "in the future" i think it will simply be more cost effective to change over to a subscription base. That is why i am investigating the technology and so on. 

 

i do agree with you 100% i do not need a massive power supply. But there are still other aspects that do contribute and i am just looking at what is available and cost effective. My goal here was actually to explore options and debate ownership a little. Because as you clearly pointed out there is a lot i can do to help my situation. Really enjoy the feedback thank you.   

[Blademaster91]

Cloud gaming isn't really viable unless you have a decent ISP with low latency, and then you have to pay for subscriptions, you also don't own the games either which is what I would dislike with cloud gaming.

I get what you mean with the power draw, everyone like to bash on AMD for having power hungry cards, but Nvidia? Oh no it's fine just undervolt your $700 gpu and lose performance you paid for.

As much as I like tinkering with hardware and being able to turn up graphics settings, prices are definitely going up because Nvidia has no competition, looking back at the GTX 10 series you could get the x80 card for $599, now it's more like $800 for a RTX 3080 if you want something besides the FE card.

Increasingly expensive hardware isn't going to ruin the enthusiast market, people buying up $1,200 2080Ti's was great evidence the market will pay whatever they feel something is worth. But I think more people will move to the PS5 and Xbox series X because you can get a 4K gaming system for less than a GPU good enough to run AAA titles at 4K.

[Moonzy]

3 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

I get what you mean with the power draw, everyone like to bash on AMD for having power hungry cards, but Nvidia?

GTX480 #neverforget

 

3 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Oh no it's fine just undervolt your $700 gpu and lose performance you paid for.

majority of the time (out of all 4 Nvidia GPU i own)

limiting the power limit to 80% doesnt see a nick of difference, you can do 80% power limit and still +100/+500 on core/mem clock

they clock their cards pretty aggressively out of the factory.

 

AMD doesnt undervolt as gracefully, from what i heard at least.

 

5 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

As much as I like tinkering with hardware and being able to turn up graphics settings, prices are definitely going up because Nvidia has no competition, looking back at the GTX 10 series you could get the x80 card for $599, now it's more like $800 if you want something besides the FE card.

agreed

[Blademaster91]

9 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

GTX480 #neverforget

Yeah kinda reminds me of Fermi in a way, not nearly as bad but 320w at stock is still a lot.

9 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

majority of the time (out of all 4 Nvidia GPU i own)

limiting the power limit to 80% doesnt see a nick of difference, you can do 80% power limit and still +100/+500 on core/mem clock

they clock their cards pretty aggressively out of the factory.

 

AMD doesnt undervolt as gracefully, from what i heard at least.

I've only seen one vid of 3080 undervolting so far, 100w less afterwards but you still lose a few frames, it's a fine tradeoff for much less heat,but I guess i'm more disappointed at how power use went up compared to the 2080Ti. And the 30 series getting clocked so hard from the factory the AIB's have no room for the OC, that sort of takes away the fun of being able to tinker with core clocks.

I have no idea with AMD besides the 5700XT, those pretty much have to be undervolted on a blower or low end AIB card.

 

[Moonzy]

10 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Yeah kinda reminds me of Fermi in a way, not nearly as bad but 320w at stock is still a lot.

yea, but they're using open air coolers now so temps isnt much of an issue

 

AMD on the other hand stuck a blower on their 50th anniversary hair dryer, the CEO's signature is on it, and runs at 95c.

you'd think they made sure their 50th anniversary product would be good.

[Fatih19]

11 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

AMD on the other hand stuck a blower on their 50th anniversary hair dryer, the CEO's signature is on it, and runs at 95c.

you'd think they made sure their 50th anniversary product would be good.

They do that because their cards blow.

[Morrie Sells Wigs]

1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

Cloud gaming isn't really viable unless you have a decent ISP with low latency, and then you have to pay for subscriptions, you also don't own the games either which is what I would dislike with cloud gaming.

I get what you mean with the power draw, everyone like to bash on AMD for having power hungry cards, but Nvidia? Oh no it's fine just undervolt your $700 gpu and lose performance you paid for.

As much as I like tinkering with hardware and being able to turn up graphics settings, prices are definitely going up because Nvidia has no competition, looking back at the GTX 10 series you could get the x80 card for $599, now it's more like $800 for a RTX 3080 if you want something besides the FE card.

Increasingly expensive hardware isn't going to ruin the enthusiast market, people buying up $1,200 2080Ti's was great evidence the market will pay whatever they feel something is worth. But I think more people will move to the PS5 and Xbox series X because you can get a 4K gaming system for less than a GPU good enough to run AAA titles at 4K.

Would you say cloud gaming is still years away from being a genuine option for a lot of customers?

 

Personally, I think it could be a long as 5 years, maybe more, before enough people have the internet to play in such a way, and the companies and their offerings, be it Stadia or whomever, have refined their product to the point it is as user friendly and competitive as anything in the Sony or Microsoft, or Steam, eco system.

 

10 years might be more realistic, and even then would cloud gaming be ubiquitous?

 

It takes a long time for technology to trickle down to everyone in society, doesn't it?

 

(Certainly, those with high speed internet and no data allowance, and with the resources to accept the pricing model, are ready now...even if the product isn't, wouldn't you say?)

 

 

[Stahlmann]

Complete desktop streaming is far off from where we are with local PC's right now. I'd not want to leave out 144Hz and higher fps support, which is basically what happens when you're PC is virtualized in a server. You just lose so much flexibility and are completely dependant on a stable and fast internet connection that it's just not realistic at this time and age. Also, the PC itself is only half the equasion. You still need all the peripherals. So for my case with very nice peripherals i'd only save ~50% when not having to buy a PC and would still have to pay monthly to have access to it. Not to mention latency, which will never be as good as a local machine, no matter what the marketing departments are promising.

 

Game streaming or even desktop streaming is an option if you can't afford to build a full PC. But if you have the money, a local PC will in every case give you a better experience, even if not running on the latest and fastest hardware. What do you gain from running a virtual machine off a server with a RTX 3090 and some chopped off EPYC cores, if your stream is limited to 1080p or 4K 60Hz output. Nothing.

[Stahlmann]

3 hours ago, DutchGuyTom said:

So if other far more obscure hobbies with no economical value can continue to thrive than so can ours.

Exactly. Every hobby can be very expensive if you're enthusiastic about it. Take golf, tennis, cars, etc...

[Stahlmann]

1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

And the 30 series getting clocked so hard from the factory the AIB's have no room for the OC, that sort of takes away the fun of being able to tinker with core clocks.

It's a good thing to clock as high as possible from the factory imo. Because the reality is, a lot of people don't get into manually overclocking and thus never get this extra performance that now comes from the factory.

[Mihle]

I neither pay for insurance nor security for my computer's.

[Mateyyy]

4 hours ago, oldSock said:

At this point in time i actually blame YouTube. Many builders use massive overly powerful PSUs for their rigs. At some point i personally am guilty of assuming that this is what we need. As far as research goes, i do run a second hand system on a 500Watt PSU it is more then enough for me and it works well. The situation however is "requirements" i for example need a GPU that is reasonable, i need a hard drive that is fast and i actually use  90% of my ram and 70% of my GPU. So for me it is a "must have" hence why i buy second hand.  

 

Why am i looking into a service that can provide a desktop experience? Simply put when my work demands a upgrade i have to consider running cost and other hidden costs along side the upgrade. So for me at some point "in the future" i think it will simply be more cost effective to change over to a subscription base. That is why i am investigating the technology and so on. 

 

i do agree with you 100% i do not need a massive power supply. But there are still other aspects that do contribute and i am just looking at what is available and cost effective. My goal here was actually to explore options and debate ownership a little. Because as you clearly pointed out there is a lot i can do to help my situation. Really enjoy the feedback thank you.   

For many YouTubers it's either just not bothering to swap the PSU out (throw an AX1600i on a test bench and you don't have to worry about it not being enough for whatever you might want to test out), or sponsors (LTT for instance had several videos sponsored by Seasonic, where they'd use their top of the line 1200W+ unit in a system that wouldn't pull even a third of that).

 

I'm expecting something similar out of AMD with RDNA2, regarding power consumption - 300W+ on the high-end (whatever that might be for them this time around). Navi wasn't great efficiency-wise compared to the competition, and if Nvidia went out and made their high-end cards pull 320W and 350W respectively, that's pretty much a free pass for AMD to do the same.

They've usually been the ones known for having hotter running cards actually, as opposed to Nvidia (not to say that Nvidia hasn't had their fair share of heaters *cough* GTX 480 *cough*).

Images of AMD's new, thankfully not blower style cooler show card(s) with two 8-pins, so up to 375W of power. 

[gloop]

6 hours ago, Maury Sells Wigs said:

Great post.

 

 

Please -snip- posts. It’s a pain to scroll past on mobile b

[oldSock]

15 hours ago, Mateyyy said:

For many YouTubers it's either just not bothering to swap the PSU out (throw an AX1600i on a test bench and you don't have to worry about it not being enough for whatever you might want to test out), or sponsors (LTT for instance had several videos sponsored by Seasonic, where they'd use their top of the line 1200W+ unit in a system that wouldn't pull even a third of that).

 

I'm expecting something similar out of AMD with RDNA2, regarding power consumption - 300W+ on the high-end (whatever that might be for them this time around). Navi wasn't great efficiency-wise compared to the competition, and if Nvidia went out and made their high-end cards pull 320W and 350W respectively, that's pretty much a free pass for AMD to do the same.

They've usually been the ones known for having hotter running cards actually, as opposed to Nvidia (not to say that Nvidia hasn't had their fair share of heaters *cough* GTX 480 *cough*).

Images of AMD's new, thankfully not blower style cooler show card(s) with two 8-pins, so up to 375W of power. 

This is why i get confused. Making Nvidia’s CEO mad - RTX 3090 Review from Linus Tech Tips

 

Anyhow if the link doesn't work, on the video titled "Making Nvidia’s CEO mad - RTX 3090 Review" from LTT about 15:51 in, he spoke about PSU and the situations we can run into.

 

Again i run second hand parts, i am really good at keeping old systems running. i have 32bit laptops still running as new 10 years on. They are almost useless BUT they still work and i like old stuff so for me to keep them running is kinda cool. But yea i do get it why they would just install the biggest PSU they can find. Not having to swap it out on every video is a real thing. It is just i feel they really can add a few seconds explaining that "look you can also use this PSU size and that PSU size" You know recommend a little something to give us some idea on what to look for.

[oldSock]

15 hours ago, Mihle said:

I neither pay for insurance nor security for my computer's.

That is just the tip of all this really. Yes you can make due without insurance and security i guess. I personally will not recommend it as the value of modern systems are really high and not easy to replace unless you really can afford not to care about it. But that said if it is your livelihood and it is the case for me, then the above is a good idea.