Windows 10: Don't know what's in a new update? You will now, says Microsoft

[Bombastinator]

7 minutes ago, MageTank said:

You were safe to assume I was talking about Windows 10... in a thread with Windows 10 in the title.

 

I will say, it's bold of you to assume I am too young to have used Windows 98 and it's successors, I grew up in a Windows 95 household myself and still have my old collection of MS DOS games that still see their fair share of play every now and then (mostly thanks to their re-release on GOG), I am well aware of how Windows used to be. However, it's extremely ignorant to make blanket statements based on past statistics when referencing modern operating systems. 

 

That's not how this works. You can't deduce that a modern product is bad because decade old products from the same company were not to your standards. It's already a stretch to use that logic in slower development fields, but it's silly to have that mindset in the field of technology where things advance as quickly as they do.

 

That's just as silly as refusing to buy a modern electric Chevy vehicle because their early 90's vehicles had poor gas mileage and invest your entire reasoning into "Well they were bad back then". 

Accepting this concept and judging only more current actions of win10 against the competitors it dominates, namely MacOS and the various hundreds or thousands of distributions of Linux, win10 does not look wonderful.  Linux is losing its ability to support older hardware well, though it’s still a bit better than windows, but while uneducated usability has improved it remains behind windows in that regard.  Apple remains ahead, but hardware is very limited in choice and cheap systems simply aren’t sold.

[Radium_Angel]

13 minutes ago, MageTank said:

I am well aware of how Windows used to be.

Fair enough. I see Windows *still* being a shitshow, but your experience is still valid.

13 minutes ago, MageTank said:

refusing to buy a modern electric Chevy vehicle because their early 90's vehicles had poor gas mileage

Can I refuse to buy a Chevy because they have terrible build quality across the board? 

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, TVwazhere said:

I dont like this.

 

If they do it, I'll have no reason to read @GoodBytes's tech news articles!  

Oh don't worry, I have been secretly injecting special code in the forum in the past ~7 years, as I planned for this eventuality... Those who don't read my Tech News about the coming up Windows 10 releases within a time window of 3 to 11 days after release (selected at random on per user account) will get auto-banned. MWHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAaaa!!!!

 

What are going to do to stop me? BAN ME?! Oh right that is a thing....

 

Fine...

In other news! Your fellow friendly GoodBytes is applying to be a candidate for taking the role of Supreme Leader of the World. Elect him and swift actions will be taken:

• Intel high pricing their CPUs? Life in jail!
• Covid? Life in jail! No more Covid!
• Biker in the middle of the road and not moving as you are right behind him/her while driving blocking your way, causing you to road rage because you have 0 patience in life... Life in jail to that biker!
• That person that bug you this morning (beside me)? Life in jail!
• People not reading GoodBytes Tech news article on new Windows 10 version release? Life in jail!

No more kidding around. Elect GoodBytes as your supreme leader and you'll enjoy a better world!

[Bombastinator]

4 minutes ago, Radium_Angel said:

Fair enough. I see Windows *still* being a shitshow, but your experience is still valid.

Can I refuse to buy a Chevy because they have terrible build quality across the board? 

Not and maintain the “old stuff is old” stance.  All the American manufacturers dramatically improved build quality after the big LART of Detroit basically cracking up.   From what I have seen American manufacturer build quality today in general meets comparable international quality. In specific they may have an awful current model or two.  I don’t know.

[Donut417]

10 minutes ago, Radium_Angel said:

still* being a shitshow

That’s why I bought a Mac and only use my PC for gaming. Not saying Microsoft isn’t trying to improve the experience. At least admitting they have issues is the first step. 
 

I think the issue really is they need to slow down on innovation and work more on quality. Why do we need 2 feature updates a year? Instead do 1 feature up date and one major update with bug fixes. And put more effort in to in house testing, maybe extend the amount of time updates are in the insider program before being released. 

[MageTank]

14 minutes ago, Radium_Angel said:

Fair enough. I see Windows *still* being a shitshow, but your experience is still valid.

Can I refuse to buy a Chevy because they have terrible build quality across the board? 

My old 99 suburban lasted me forever until 300k+ miles and electrical issues took it down. That being said, my 2004 Colorado had the exact same electrical issues with the headlights/turn signals (left turn signal wouldn't work if headlights were on, bad ground). Just bought a new 2020 Silverado in the hopes that it has no issues, but if it does, then I'll definitely question their build quality, lol.

 

My only gripe with Chevy at the moment is their warranties and how little they actually cover. If someone opens their door against my truck and scratches it, that's covered, but if a rock flies off a semi and scrapes my hood, that isn't covered. 

 

Remember kids: If a rock hits your hood, what really happened is a lifted jeep owner that double parked sideways opened their door against your hood.

[Bombastinator]

The problem as I see it is that as OSes get more complex more and more effort needs to be taken to make sure it works well.  What made *nixs so rock solid stable was that they got majority bug removal and security stuff for like a decade before they became something that could even be run on a desktop.  Once an OS is functioning well at a consumer level cleanup of imperfections becomes more important than new features and every time a new feature is added new imperfections will crop up.

[Bombastinator]

3 minutes ago, MageTank said:

My old 99 suburban lasted me forever until 300k+ miles and electrical issues took it down. That being said, my 2004 Colorado had the exact same electrical issues with the headlights/turn signals (left turn signal wouldn't work if headlights were on, bad ground). Just bought a new 2020 Silverado in the hopes that it has no issues, but if it does, then I'll definitely question their build quality, lol.

 

My only gripe with Chevy at the moment is their warranties and how little they actually cover. If someone opens their door against my truck and scratches it, that's covered, but if a rock flies off a semi and scrapes my hood, that isn't covered. 

 

Remember kids: If a rock hits your hood, what really happened is a lifted jeep owner that double parked sideways opened their door against your hood.

The very concept of any kind of paint scratch being covered at all I find bizarre.  It arguably could be considered a mechanics fault of sorts with a door scratch because it means the bumper strip designed to protect against such things wasn’t placed correctly (though how does one really control that) I suspect paint scratches caused other vehicles at all only exists for doors because of the bumper strip thing.  The whole “double lift SUV” thing strikes me as an attempt to defraud.  Even th paint scratches on doors is pretty marginal.  Paint scratches on cars would be part of some kinds of probably quite comprehensive insurance.

[jagdtigger]

1 hour ago, Kilrah said:

They used to put. 

Updates wiping whole folders or partitions..........   Yeah they are still pretty bad.

[Radium_Angel]

7 minutes ago, MageTank said:

build quality,

This is getting radically off topic, but I used to drive, exclusively, Italian sports cars, with a preference for Alfas. I'm not stranger to "issues", but Alfa never marked their vehicles as "reliable", only "fun"

Having said that, my Alfa GTV6 went 250k miles before I sold it, with "only" a head gasket replacement as the major work done to it.

[Bombastinator]

1 minute ago, Radium_Angel said:

This is getting radically off topic, but I used to drive, exclusively, Italian sports cars, with a preference for Alfas. I'm not stranger to "issues", but Alfa never marked their vehicles as "reliable", only "fun"

Having said that, my Alfa GTV6 went 250k miles before I sold it, with "only" a head gasket replacement as the major work done to it.

I agree about the radically off topic though the reliability of your gtv6 impresses me. 
 

Actual topic appears to be windows new description of changes feature.

[Kilrah]

7 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Updates wiping whole folders or partitions..........   Yeah they are still pretty bad.

So are the other options. Things always go wrong in tech. It's only if they consistently go whong more than average that it becomes abnormal.

[steelo]

3 hours ago, mbntr said:

Or we won't even have the time to open a browser because windows is an unstable piece of shit

I'd go as far as to say 95% of Windows users don't have this problem. Sounds like perhaps you have other issues.

[jagdtigger]

1 minute ago, Kilrah said:

So are the other options.

IDK about that, i have a few VM's, RPI's, and a few PC that runs linux(debian and pop_os mainly) to auto update but so far none of them had any issues like what windows had...... So yeah, its pretty abnormal already lol.

[Kilrah]

I had an Ubuntu system completely crap itself on the last major update.

A friend and collegue of mine lost 3 years of emails on his mac when the Catalina update broke things.

 

Same same. 

[MageTank]

14 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

The very concept of any kind of paint scratch being covered at all I find bizarre.  It arguably could be considered a mechanics fault of sorts with a door scratch because it means the bumper strip designed to protect against such things wasn’t placed correctly (though how does one really control that) I suspect paint scratches caused other vehicles at all only exists for doors because of the bumper strip thing.  The whole “double lift SUV” thing strikes me as an attempt to defraud.  Even th paint scratches on doors is pretty marginal.  Paint scratches on cars would be part of some kinds of probably quite comprehensive insurance.

The funny part is, I am telling you what the dealership told me, lol. They even told me "If you get a flat in a privately owned lot and GM asks you where you got the flat, tell them it happened on the highway". Apparently GM doesn't cover tire damage if it occurs on any private property (including parking lots) but will cover it if you get a flat on public roadways. I just found it humorous that the dealership gave me that advice.

 

Though my warranty isn't through my local dealership, but rather GM themselves, so I can get it serviced anywhere.

[StDragon]

50 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Well Microsoft already those release notes. They just release it several days after the update is released. All I see them doing, is no longer have to wait so long for this, and now make it some startup page with Edge after you update OR have a link in Windows Update  that says "What's new" or something, when a new version of Windows 10 is ready to install. That said, they never, not even if you are in the insider program shares all the bug fixes, known issues perform. Just some key points. I think that will remain. Then again, no one really cares about the inner details, and miss interpretation (by the editor(s) which aren't teh ones that worked on it, and while have technical background, aren't experts, and may miss understand a dev (who might have a communication problem due to English being a second language, laziness, or makes sense for him/her in their head but not to others)) can be an issue. 

 

I am interested in better error messages than "Something Happened". But, probably, if I ask, they'll change it to:  "Something Happened - A certain event has occurred which may or may not be expected that potentially did something. Contact your administrator for more information."

 

 

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/ (KB article number goes at the end)

 

https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.com/Home.aspx

 

But yeah, really wish MS would do better at publishing list of KBs (Knowledge Base) articles like they used to 20+ years ago.

[Bombastinator]

2 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

I had an Ubuntu system completely crap itself on the last major update.

A friend and collegue of mine lost 3 years of emails on his mac when the Catalina update broke things.

 

Same same. 

I recall the Apple email thing. Happened to my stepmother as well. Apple was very embarrased.  I recall it not being terribly well handled by Apple.  Private user mitigation and fixes came out before the Apple ones making it worse.  OS screw ups happen. It seems to be a function of frequency and severity rather that a yes/no thing.

[StDragon]

6 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

I had an Ubuntu system completely crap itself on the last major update.

A friend and collegue of mine lost 3 years of emails on his mac when the Catalina update broke things.

 

Same same. 

Catalina is awful.

 

It's the year 2020. Why is SMB access and performance BROKEN within OSX? Still an issue!

[Bombastinator]

5 minutes ago, MageTank said:

The funny part is, I am telling you what the dealership told me, lol. They even told me "If you get a flat in a privately owned lot and GM asks you where you got the flat, tell them it happened on the highway". Apparently GM doesn't cover tire damage if it occurs on any private property (including parking lots) but will cover it if you get a flat on public roadways. I just found it humorous that the dealership gave me that advice.

 

Though my warranty isn't through my local dealership, but rather GM themselves, so I can get it serviced anywhere.

Dealership is not GM.  They merely have a contract with them to sell and repair GM vehicles.  Frequently you’ll see dealerships with multiple contracts with competing companies.

[GoodBytes]

3 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

The problem as I see it is that as OSes get more complex more and more effort needs to be taken to make sure it works well.  What made *nixs so rock solid stable was that they got majority bug removal and security stuff for like a decade before they became something that could even be run on a desktop.  Once an OS is functioning well at a consumer level cleanup of imperfections becomes more important than new features and every time a new feature is added new imperfections will crop up.

True. However, also, a problem with Windows, is that it opens door for the user to do shit on their system, and complain about issues.

• Registry cleaners (it has happened, even the popular ones, screw up... issues you don't see until the next update)
• Breaks things to do things that the OS was not designed to do. Including but not limited to: system tweaks
• User cancels mid way a defrag process by restarting their system, or killing the process (or power loss) or just using a software with a bug, which doesn't/can't undo what it was doing when you abort the process, corrupting a file.
• Heck, on this very forum, someone just had fun changing the security permission of folders of the system folders, giving access to everything to all, because he/she wanted to write a file at a particular place where one should not write personal files. Never asking, the question on why I can't?
• People executing random scripts or command that they see online without actually understanding what they do. So many problems  I see online, with unrelated solutions, like asking people to run PowerShell scripts, which tend (depending on what they are) to break other stuff, making the person who has had an issue be at a worst state.
• No control on the user software (pirated software with malware... for example)

Same on Linux based OS, by the way. Many people, who don't know the OS, have difficulty understanding the OS documentation (not helped that people are unaware about it), randomly, execute command they see on the forum or site which might not even be actually related to their problem, causing more issues.

 

I have seen people learning Linux, who faces an issue, and breaks their OS that way. It is also not helped by many miss information going around, such as, one of the biggest one, in my opinion, "Linux doesn't need to restart to apply updates... any updates"... well that is not true. If you are doing a kernel updates or a major system file(s) are/is being updated, true the OS won't ask you to restart, but many times, the libraries that interact with what was updated isn't compatible as it needs to be updated as well, but wasn't. This can cause shit to hit the fan. A knowledgeable Linux users who know if a full restart is required or not, what to restart exactly to ensure proper system operations.

 

Linux isn't handholding the user. This is an issue for newcomer (but also the OS strength) especially with people who are used to Windows, where that OS handhold the user a lot. In Linux, if you do: sudi rem *  (typos on purpose. Those who know, know what I am actually saying), it WILL wipe the system. No: "You are about to do XYZ, do you really want to do it?", No "Are you sure?", It will do it! And there is no recycling bin to undo things. You are done for.

[GoodBytes]

3 hours ago, Donut417 said:

That’s why I bought a Mac and only use my PC for gaming. Not saying Microsoft isn’t trying to improve the experience. At least admitting they have issues is the first step. 
 

I think the issue really is they need to slow down on innovation and work more on quality. Why do we need 2 feature updates a year? Instead do 1 feature up date and one major update with bug fixes. And put more effort in to in house testing, maybe extend the amount of time updates are in the insider program before being released. 

Actually, that is exactly what they have been doing. And at every release of Windows, they see what failed and improve. This last update, they introduced a message that says when the next version of Windows is ready for your system or not. Sadly, some people still force things and they get what they get. That will always be an issue, especially when it comes to issues where there is a hardware compatibility issue, and the manufacture takes ages to fix their shit, making the end user impatience, and thinks Windows is wrong, and force things. I am not saying that it is the only reason for issues. Of course not. Just saying this a one of their latest user visible changes.

 

That said, yes I agree, they should spend more time on polish. As a developer, I do understand the struggle of just one day, having their QA team just disappear, and have to adapt at the last moment, and start developing QA skill and knowledge to test their own stuff, something that many aren't good at. That said, it has been a while now, since that was done. 

[Bombastinator]

15 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

True. However, also, a problem with Windows, is that it opens door for the user to do shit on their system, and complain about issues.

• Registry cleaners (it has happened, even the popular ones, screw up... issues you don't see until the next update)
• Breaks things to do things that the OS was not designed to do. Including but not limited to: system tweaks
• User cancels mid way a defrag process by restarting their system, or killing the process (or power loss) or just using a software with a bug, which doesn't/can't undo what it was doing when you abort the process, corrupting a file.
• Heck, on this very forum, someone just had fun changing the security permission of folders of the system folders, giving access to everything to all, because he/she wanted to write a file at a particular place where one should not write personal files. Never asking, the question on why I can't?
• People executing random scripts or command that they see online without actually understanding what they do. So many problems  I see online, with unrelated solutions, like asking people to run PowerShell scripts, which tend (depending on what they are) to break other stuff, making the person who has had an issue be at a worst state.
• No control on the user software (pirated software with malware... for example)

Same on Linux based OS, by the way. Many people, who don't know the OS, have difficulty understanding the OS documentation (not helped that people are unaware about it), randomly, execute command they see on the forum or site which might not even be actually related to their problem, causing more issues. I have seen people learning Linux, who faces an issue, and breaks their OS that way. It is also not helped by many miss information going around, such as, one of the biggest one, in my opinion, "Linux doesn't need to restart to apply updates... any updates"... well that is not true. If you are doing a kernel updates or a major system file(s) are/is being updated, true the OS won't ask you to restart, but many times, the libraries that interact with what was updated isn't compatible as it needs to be updated as well, but wasn't, can cause shit to hit the fan. A knowledgeable Linux users who know if a full restart is required or not, what to restart exactly to ensure proper system operations. This is an issue especially with people who are used to Windows who handhold the user a lot. Linux, if you do: sudi rem *  (typos on purpose, those who know, know what I am actually saying), it WILL wipe the system. No "You are about to do XYZ, do you really want to do it?", No "Are you sure?", It will do it, and there is no recycling bin. You are done for. This is such an issue that they are sites that actually about commands to watch out and never run.

The other direction is the Apple stance which is to allow outside entities to do very little in which case an entirely different set of complaints is leveraged.  Strikes me as a cant-win-for-losing scenario.  More availability of modification more user screw ups.  Less availability, less screw ups but more feature availability complaints.   It seems one picks ones poison and there are currently 3 levels which work better or worse for a given individual depending on how prone to computer screw ups one is and how badly one needs a specific feature.  There may be four.  I don’t count chrome though.  I know little about it other than google has massive data collection issues that for me make it an unacceptable product independent of feature/bug issues 

[rcmaehl]

4 hours ago, mbntr said:

ah youg one, you haven't yet experienced the absolute beauty of windows update crapping all over the system, completely random driver issues or just the OS wanting to commit suicide after 10 months (bit rot)

*Early Windows 10 flashbacks intensify*

 

I remember having to reset Windows 10 every update because everything built in Metro (e.g. Settings, Phot viewer, Windows 10 store) would break every single time

[jagdtigger]

52 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

I had an Ubuntu system completely crap itself on the last major update.

Well thats odd, i usually do this via the old fashioned way (just replacing the name of the release in sources.list) but so far it did no bork any of the systems....