(16core added)AMD 3000 specs! 4.7 GHZ, R9 3950x, R7 3700x, 3800x.

[thorhammerz]

27 minutes ago, mr moose said:

The difference between a 400W system and a 500W system only becomes big enough if you calculate the savings over a year,

Dependent on local electricity rates.

 

For many North Americans, 100W of power is about <$35 per year ($0.12 USD / KwH average in America, somewhere around $0.10 CAD / KwH average for Canada, assuming 8 hour operation per day, 365 days per year).

 

Spoiler

Data on American rates in 2019.

Data on Canadian rates, compiled in 2018. 

 

Power consumption is notably a larger concern in states like California or the northern New England region, but such is the result of environmental & energy-production government policies.

 

 

[Humbug]

23 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

I find it amusing that we are getting to a point where people are starting to debate the virtues of improvements so small that you need measurement software/test gear to see it.    The difference between a 400W system and a 500W system only becomes big enough if you calculate the savings over a year,  the extra 5-10% you get in raw processing power is only measurable between benchmarks. 

 

Some times I feel like just saying buy the second best CPU turn the damn FPS counter off and enjoy the game with some extra cash in your pocket. 

ya I also find it surprising when people with AMD R7 2700x or Intel i7 8700K CPUs say they are looking forward to switching to a Ryzen 3800x. We see it in the GPU front as well with people switching cards for just 20% more performance...

 

And here I am still using my Sapphire R9 290 Vapor-x after 5 years since it's still very good at 1080p and I don't feel the GPU price/performance has moved forward enough since then.

[mr moose]

Just now, thorhammerz said:

That depends on local electricity rates.

 

For many North Americans, 100W of power is about <$35 per year ($0.12 USD / KwH average in America, somewhere around $0.10 CAD / KwH average for Canada, assuming 8 hour operation per day, 365 days per year).

 

  Hide contents

Data on American rates in 2019.

Data on Canadian rates compiles in 2018. 

 

 

I was using an exaggerated wattage as the discussion was about ram and CPU refinements. But all the same, at that 100watts, is $35 over a year enough savings to justify an upgrade?  

 

Again, my point is some of these improvements that are so small you have to measure them, meaning they would not be immediately apparent to the end user if they didn't know.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Humbug said:

ya I also find it surprising when people with AMD R7 2700x or Intel i7 8700K CPUs say they are looking forward to switching to a Ryzen 3800x. We see it in the GPU front as well with people switching cards for just 20% more performance...

 

And here I am still using my Sapphire R9 290 Vapor-x after 5 years since it's still very good at 1080p and I don't feel the GPU price/performance has moved forward enough since then.

 

Even if price was not a major concern but all they wanted was bleeding edge,  using arguments like "it's 10% more efficient" seems to me to be people trying to give legitimacy to their desires rather than just accepting they are happy to pay more for more.   Or worse they are trying to convince everyone there is merit to their opinions beyond their personal desires.

 

[Humbug]

7 minutes ago, thorhammerz said:

Dependent on local electricity rates.

For many North Americans, 100W of power is about <$35 per year ($0.12 USD / KwH average in America, somewhere around $0.10 CAD / KwH average for Canada, assuming 8 hour operation per day, 365 days per year).

To even generate that much savings per day it would have to be 8 hours under load per day such as gaming!!! And people with jobs like most of us just don't have the time to play games anywhere close to that much. The rest of the time when your PC is just doing mundane tasks or idling there is no difference between a GTX 1050ti or a Vega 64 in terms of power consumption.

 

Power bills are more of a concern for continuous loads, like miners.

[Humbug]

6 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

Even if price was not a major concern but all they wanted was bleeding edge,  using arguments like "it's 10% more efficient" seems to me to be people trying to give legitimacy to their desires rather than just accepting they are happy to pay more for more.   Or worse they are trying to convince everyone there is merit to their opinions beyond their personal desires.

 

ya exactly. It's much better to just say "I want the newest and shiniest thing because I like tech and can afford it, it gives me satisfaction".  

[GoldenLag]

4 minutes ago, Humbug said:

Power bills are more of a concern for continuous loads, like miners.

or servers. but even in servers, density can be a higher concern than just powerdraw. its why dual cards exist, simply because of the unchallanged density. 

[thorhammerz]

6 minutes ago, Humbug said:

To even generate that much savings per day it would have to be 8 hours under load per day such as gaming!!! And people with jobs like most of us just don't have the time to play games anywhere close to that much.

Which is specifically why the phrase "100w of power" was used - it means quite literally, 100w of power use (along with the aforementioned stipulations on time duration and rates).

[GoldenLag]

1 minute ago, thorhammerz said:

Which is specifically why the phrase "100w of power" was used - it means quite literally, 100w of power use (along with the aforementioned stipulations on time duration and rates).

you can also turn that into 100 watts of heating you didnt need to spend in the winter. 

 

yes that is niche, but people generally dont care about powerdraw. they care about the sideffects like noise. 

[Humbug]

15 minutes ago, thorhammerz said:

Which is specifically why the phrase "100w of power" was used - it means quite literally, 100w of power use (along with the aforementioned stipulations on time duration and rates).

Ya, I was pointing out that even for two PC systems with a load power difference of 100W it would be very difficult to generate any savings if you are gamer.

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, PianoPlayer88Key said:

I wonder if AMD possibly could, if they wanted, bring something like this out for Ryzen 4000 series?

Would probably not be able to due to the interposer/package and the traces required for each die, no actual idea but my gut feel is too little space.

 

2 hours ago, PianoPlayer88Key said:

16 core APU (with the 3rd chiplet being a Navi die)?

I'd rather see that, along with die stacking with HBM. That kind of dream really is not free though lol.

 

2 hours ago, PianoPlayer88Key said:

Hey if with the next generation they coud shrink the I/O die to 7nm lithography, might it be possible to make the I/O die small enough to fit a 4th chiplet?  Or if those were down to 5 nm .....  

The functions of that die are better suited to 14nm which is why 7nm is not being used. Not everything responds well or even positively to node shrinks. 12nm (14nm+) is an option I believe though.

[GoldenLag]

11 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I'd rather see that, along with die stacking with HBM. That kind of dream really is not free though lol.

a 4 die config with HBM, IO die, CPU and Navi is only really possible in mobile, where not having to buy an mx250 makes it a way better choice for ultrabooks. 

 

the only issue is VRM, because damn Vega has a lot of VRM sections. Buildzoid mentioned this when a viewer asked if he could do a breakdown of the Vega 2 duo. 

 

edit:

 

Spoiler

 

from a Asus board design, but as you can tell, its more than the usual GPU due to HBM being present. (i dont know if its Vega or HBM, im just guessing its due to HBM)

[leadeater]

56 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

or servers. but even in servers, density can be a higher concern than just powerdraw. its why dual cards exist, simply because of the unchallanged density. 

Even in servers dual (or quad) GPUs lost favor, heat and power density (cabling) is a bit of a problem. We have quad GPU cards for VDI, Nvidia Tesla M10, but I don't think there are new generation cards like these. Now they use single powerful GPUs and share it between VMs using special drivers or in AMD's case SR-IOV.

 

Power density per server can be a bit of a problem too, if you are still running an older facility without power to the racks designed for it. For example one of our DC's has dual single phase feeds to each cabinet, each feed is 32A that go in to top of rack PDUs with 3 16A feeds off those to rail outlets down the side of the cabinet. Because it's a redundant A + B power configuration the max power draw per cabinet is 28A because you need a little bit of head room for spikes etc.

 

This is or should I say was a very common setup 15 years ago, buildings don't change quickly especially if there is no need. Now to illustrate the problem very quick lets look at Nvidia's 16 V100 DGX server, that is rated for a sustained 10kwh. Lets jump back to that 28A figure, 28 * 230 = 6440W. Can't even put a single Nvidia DGX in a cabinet at all, LOL!

 

Density sucks big time if you aren't prepared for it. Our example is a little less extreme than the above, just threw that one in because it's amusing. We moved from HPE DL360 servers to multi-node servers, 2U 4 dual socket nodes. That's double the power density. We have 48U racks with 36U usable physically however due to these multi-node servers we can in fact only use 12U before we exceed power in the cabinet at this facility.

[GoldenLag]

27 minutes ago, leadeater said:

12nm (14nm+) is an option I believe though.

are you reffering to density increase with the 12nm or just what they did with 12nm Ryzen, which was the same size (die) just with the better node. 

 

because idk if they can use that 12nm node at glofo to make a smaller IO die. 

[Chronified]

When are motherboards being released? I'm planning on upgrading from my FX 8350 but don't have a lot of $$ for a whole platform upgrade.

Needing to upgrade my motherboard, ram and CPU is going to set me back so I'll likely settle with a Ryzen 3 1200 and upgrade the CPU down the line to something 3rd gen, that being said I'm going to wait out to do my platform upgrade until 3rd gen compatible mobos come out. 

[Origami Cactus]

1 minute ago, Chronified said:

When are motherboards being released?  

Should come out a few days before july 7, or at the same time as the processors.

[GoldenLag]

1 minute ago, Chronified said:

When are motherboards being released? I'm planning on upgrading from my FX 8350 but don't have a lot of $$ for a whole platform upgrade.

Needing to upgrade my motherboard, ram and CPU is going to set me back so I'll likely settle with a Ryzen 3 1200 and upgrade the CPU down the line to something 3rd gen, that being said I'm going to wait out to do my platform upgrade until 3rd gen compatible mobos come out. 

you could allways just get a B450 board and the new CPU. then order a bootkit to update the BIOS. 

[leadeater]

6 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

are you reffering to density increase with the 12nm or just what they did with 12nm Ryzen, which was the same size (die) just with the better node. 

 

because idk if they can use that 12nm node at glofo to make a smaller IO die. 

More just a future option, unless what ever changed with 12nm makes it worse for the I/O die. It's only 10%, which doesn't mean physically 10% smaller either though.

[GoldenLag]

Just now, leadeater said:

More just a future option, unless what ever changed with 12nm makes it worse for the I/O die. It's only 10%, which doesn't mean physically 10% smaller either though.

Zen  and Zen +  had the same diesize. they literally copypasted Zen onto 12 nm with minor changes to memmory controller. 

 

 

though its true we dont know if a smaller node will help. at some point we might even have 150nm active substrates to do the things that smaller nodes suck at. (though i dont know what those would be sadly)

[Chronified]

3 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

you could allways just get a B450 board and the new CPU. then order a bootkit to update the BIOS. 

I'm want to pay a pretty penny for my motherboard for forwards compatibility (PCIe 4.0, 2+ M.2 slots, Thunderbolt), so I want to wait for new motherboards to drop, then I'll just upgrade my CPU down the line since I just have a GTX 1660ti which won't bottleneck under a Ryzen 3 1200 as it is. 

[GoldenLag]

1 minute ago, Chronified said:

I'm want to pay a pretty penny for my motherboard for forwards compatibility (PCIe 4.0, 2+ M.2 slots, Thunderbolt), so I want to wait for new motherboards to drop, then I'll just upgrade my CPU down the line since I just have a GTX 1660ti which won't bottleneck under a Ryzen 3 1200 as it is. 

well, dont expect x570 to be cheap like x470 has been. the chipset is apperantly rather expencive.

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, GoldenLag said:

Zen  and Zen +  had the same diesize. they literally copypasted Zen onto 12 nm with minor changes to memmory controller. 

Yea I know, I just mean a 10% logic shrink doesn't necessarily mean 10% physical die shrink. The x-ray shots or what ever they were did show a fair margin around the physical die though for Zen+.

[GoldenLag]

Just now, leadeater said:

Yea I know, I just mean a 10% logic shrink doesn't necessarily mean 10% physical die shrink. The x-ray shots or what ever they were did show a fair margin around the physical die though for Zen+.

oh, yeah that is true. zen+ could be an outlier for 12nm as AMD probably didnt want to spend any time on it since it was never intended to be much of an improvement. 

[Humbug]

14 minutes ago, Chronified said:

When are motherboards being released? I'm planning on upgrading from my FX 8350 but don't have a lot of $$ for a whole platform upgrade.

Needing to upgrade my motherboard, ram and CPU is going to set me back so I'll likely settle with a Ryzen 3 1200 and upgrade the CPU down the line to something 3rd gen, that being said I'm going to wait out to do my platform upgrade until 3rd gen compatible mobos come out. 

You can just purchase a B450 mothermoard already...

[Chronified]

1 minute ago, Humbug said:

You can just purchase a B450 mothermoard already...

Read later comments, I want PCIe 4.0, 2x m.2 and thunderbolt. That's why I'm waiting.