[OLD] PSU Tier List 3.0 (Legacy)

[jrivers010]

Hi guys. sorry but im new here, have been a lurker though, especially for the PSU list.

 

quick question, am i going crazy, or was there an updated 2019 september list? this one required drop downs though.

but now i cant find it. am i missing something here?

[LukeSavenije]

10 minutes ago, jrivers010 said:

quick question, am i going crazy, or was there an updated 2019 september list?

you're not going crazy

 

it's that advanced one in my signature, but it needs some... maturity

[jrivers010]

2 minutes ago, LukeSavenije said:

you're not going crazy

 

it's that advanced one in my signature, but it needs some... maturity

Awesome great!

 

that new updated list shook me. almost all my goto PSUs is now in D tier. specifically looking at seasonic focus and focus plus series, EVGA g3, and seaonic S12ii/M12ii.

 

Did the manufacturer change the quality of the PSU? are they completely different inside now?

 

looks like my new budget goto PSU is Corsair CX grey label...

[LukeSavenije]

1 minute ago, jrivers010 said:

specifically looking at seasonic focus and focus plus series,

showed 268mV of ripple when overloaded in the last revision, the older one would shut down early on higher end gpus like the vega 64, 1080 ti, 2080 ti and 970 strix

 

2 minutes ago, jrivers010 said:

EVGA g3,

partly melted and one unit dead in aris's testing because the protections are set too high

 

3 minutes ago, jrivers010 said:

seaonic S12ii/M12ii

doesn't meet c6/c7, lacks undervoltage protection and can be brought out of spec if you load it a certain way

[jrivers010]

1 minute ago, LukeSavenije said:

showed 268mV of ripple when overloaded in the last revision, the older one would shut down early on higher end gpus like the vega 64, 1080 ti, 2080 ti and 970 strix

 

partly melted and one unit dead in aris's testing because the protections are set too high

 

doesn't meet c6/c7, lacks undervoltage protection and can be brought out of spec if you load it a certain way

Was something changed in the design/manufacturing side? or has it always been this bad and just never caught/seen until now? or simply only caught because it cant handle modern high end GPUs?

[LukeSavenije]

Just now, jrivers010 said:

Was something changed in the design/manufacturing side? or has it always been this bad and just never caught/seen until now?

the focus changed in 2018 with a second revision to solve those shutdown problems, by upping the overpower protection, which the psu simply couldn't handle

 

the other two are already known, but tiered harsher on

[jrivers010]

hmm wow... i need to pay more attention to PSU changes now.

 

thanks again for the info

[LukeSavenije]

3 minutes ago, jrivers010 said:

hmm wow... i need to pay more attention to PSU changes now.

yeah... it can quickly go downhill for some

 

focus should be fixed with the new gx, px and gm. but since no-one has overloaded yet, we can't make it sure

 

s12iii with uvp, c6/c7 certification and individual regulation (unfortunately double mag, not dcdc) is out as well, but i wouldn't really consider it except if it's at 25 dollars or so.

 

evga is releasing some new ones with fsp, but we know little about them currently

[LukeSavenije]

22 hours ago, trevb0t said:

the EVGA Supernova GM (SFX12V) in the same class as the rest of the G series stuff?

i personally haven't looked too deep into it yet

[FALC0N]

 

On 9/23/2019 at 10:42 PM, LukeSavenije said:

(Seasonic Focus) - showed 268mV of ripple when overloaded in the last revision, the older one would shut down early on higher end gpus like the vega 64, 1080 ti, 2080 ti and 970 strix

 

(EVGA G3)  - partly melted and one unit dead in aris's testing because the protections are set too high

 

(S12II) - doesn't meet c6/c7, lacks undervoltage protection and can be brought out of spec if you load it a certain way

 

On 9/23/2019 at 10:38 PM, jrivers010 said:

 

that new updated list shook me. almost all my goto PSUs is now in D tier. specifically looking at seasonic focus and focus plus series, EVGA g3, and seaonic S12ii/M12ii.

 

Did the manufacturer change the quality of the PSU? are they completely different inside now?

 

looks like my new budget goto PSU is Corsair CX grey label...

 

jrivers010, I think the problem is the tier list, not you.  One reason I tell people to ignore tier list and do their own research is that such lists tend to be compromised in a number of ways, particularly personal bias. Case in point are these three units. I have SERIOUS issues with the way things are assessed by LukeSavenije and a few others on this forum.  Their conclusions are not necessarily shared by the greater enthusiast community.  Lets have a look, shall we:

 

 

1)   The Seasonic Focus issue with shutting down with big time GPU's was a real issue that did occur, but it was infrequent, limited to a few GPU's, and has been corrected in more recent iterations., The alleged "ripple" issue he referenced occurred during an overload test of a 750w Focus near the 900 watt mark.  In fact, the issue only occurred right before shutdown.  At 888 watts, the ripple was 50mv.  It then shut down at 900 watts. Any load that high would trip the OPP before the ripple could manifest itself. So its a complete non-issue. 

 

2)   The EVGA G3 had a couple of hard shutdowns during an overload tests.  While that was not a pleasing outcome at all, sticking it in tier D based on that is nonsense. It has excellent overall performance

 

3)   The Seasonic S12II and M12II still have a strong case for being the best best budget PSU's out there.  Seasonic hasn't dumbed it down at all.  It's still just as rugged and reliable as ever. Now it does have some impressive competition, particularly from the Corsair CX and BitFenix, and many now take the view that independently regulated units are always better options. But tier D, with about 18 group regulated units in Tier C?  That is absolutely ridiculous. The S12II is probably the best group regulated unit ever made.    

 

Just as a case in point, the FSP Raider (the original version) is listed as tier C.  The S12II beats it up, take its lunch money, and steal its girlfriend, and it does it in almost EVERY CATEGORY.  But somehow he thinks the Raider is Tier C while the S12II, Focus, and G3 are tier D.  If the S12II can do that to the Raider, imagine what the G3 and Focus would do to it.  And this is FAR from a comprehensive list of problems with the tier list. 

 

 

 

 

[GoldenLag]

3 hours ago, FALC0N said:

Any load that high would trip the OPP before the ripple could manifest itself. So its a complete non-issue. 

except it didnt trip on the Focus....... the OPP is supposed to trip before the PSU reaches something that is unsafe and that the PSU cant hold without creating a potencial issue. 

3 hours ago, FALC0N said:

The EVGA G3 had a couple of hard shutdowns during an overload tests.  While that was not a pleasing outcome at all, sticking it in tier D based on that is nonsense. It has excellent overall performance

PSU dies when testing OPP........... yeah thats not a great thing. lets stick it where it would have been in a alternate universe where that didnt happen. 

3 hours ago, FALC0N said:

The S12II is probably the best group regulated unit ever made.    

um, yeah. no

Aurum, Power Zone, or VS are better contenders for that spot from what i can gather

 

the S12III is interesting for office PCs as its dirt cheap. not a whole lot more. 

 

3 hours ago, FALC0N said:

Just as a case in point, the FSP Raider (the original version) is listed as tier C.  The S12II beats it up, take its lunch money, and steal its girlfriend, and it does it in almost EVERY CATEGORY.

i mean he would love for you to site some sources and list the lacking protections or present protections of both. and why the S12II is so much better when pointing to graphs. 

 

 

moving the Focus to tier D might be a tad harsh together with the G3, but it is supposed to be harsh. 

[5x5]

3 hours ago, FALC0N said:

 

 

 

jrivers010, I think the problem is the tier list, not you.  One reason I tell people to ignore tier list and do their own research is that such lists tend to be compromised in a number of ways, particularly personal bias. Case in point are these three units. I have SERIOUS issues with the way things are assessed by LukeSavenije and a few others on this forum.  Their conclusions are not necessarily shared by the greater enthusiast community.  Lets have a look, shall we:

 

 

1)   The Seasonic Focus issue with shutting down with big time GPU's was a real issue that did occur, but it was infrequent, limited to a few GPU's, and has been corrected in more recent iterations., The alleged "ripple" issue he referenced occurred during an overload test of a 750w Focus near the 900 watt mark.  In fact, the issue only occurred right before shutdown.  At 888 watts, the ripple was 50mv.  It then shut down at 900 watts. Any load that high would trip the OPP before the ripple could manifest itself. So its a complete non-issue. 

 

2)   The EVGA G3 had a couple of hard shutdowns during an overload tests.  While that was not a pleasing outcome at all, sticking it in tier D based on that is nonsense. It has excellent overall performance

 

3)   The Seasonic S12II and M12II still have a strong case for being the best best budget PSU's out there.  Seasonic hasn't dumbed it down at all.  It's still just as rugged and reliable as ever. Now it does have some impressive competition, particularly from the Corsair CX and BitFenix, and many now take the view that independently regulated units are always better options. But tier D, with about 18 group regulated units in Tier C?  That is absolutely ridiculous. The S12II is probably the best group regulated unit ever made.    

 

Just as a case in point, the FSP Raider (the original version) is listed as tier C.  The S12II beats it up, take its lunch money, and steal its girlfriend, and it does it in almost EVERY CATEGORY.  But somehow he thinks the Raider is Tier C while the S12II, Focus, and G3 are tier D.  If the S12II can do that to the Raider, imagine what the G3 and Focus would do to it.  And this is FAR from a comprehensive list of problems with the tier list. 

 

 

 

 

Dude, you're so wrong and so worked up it's actually hilarious.  I get you like SeaSonic but you gotta accept reality and that no company or entity is infallible. Stop the random baseless hate and chill

[TJ Bronson]

Quick question

 

Is the Tier B

Quote

Cooler Master - MWE Bronze =>600w

The same as the

MWE 650 BRONZE - V2

Just wanna make sure before buying.

Thanks
 

[Spotty]

Just now, TJ Bronson said:

Quick question

 

Is the Tier B

Quote

Cooler Master - MWE Bronze =>600w

The same as the

MWE 650 BRONZE - V2

Just wanna make sure before buying.

Thanks

 

The new MWE V2 units are different and haven't been ranked on the Tier List yet. They'd probably end up in Tier B anyway though.

[dahyippur]

What's with the * asterisks on a few of the corsairs?

[LukeSavenije]

3 hours ago, dahyippur said:

What's with the * asterisks on a few of the corsairs?

to go to the notes, how to see the difference between the 2012 and 2015/2017's

[FALC0N]

On 9/25/2019 at 5:53 AM, GoldenLag said:

except it didnt trip on the Focus....... the OPP is supposed to trip before the PSU reaches something that is unsafe and that the PSU cant hold without creating a potencial issue. 

 

No.  It's supposed to trip before a hazardous electrical fault occurs.  Exceeding the ATX ripple spec for less than 10w at a 150w overdraw is not a hazardous electrical fault.  This unit performed perfectly fine.

 

Quote

 

PSU dies when testing OPP........... yeah thats not a great thing. lets stick it where it would have been in a alternate universe where that didnt happen. 

um, yeah. no

 

 

Be honest, I don't feel super good about that one either, but it's not enough to justify not ever using it.  This is tier list, not a personal preference list.  I don't buy EVGA at all.  I have my issues with them and this type of quality control is one of those issues.  That said, its still a 1 in 10,000 issue and the G3 is still one of the best units out there.

 

 

 

Quote

Aurum, Power Zone, or VS are better contenders for that spot from what i can gather

 

the S12III is interesting for office PCs as its dirt cheap. not a whole lot more. 

 

i mean he would love for you to site some sources and list the lacking protections or present protections of both. and why the S12II is so much better when pointing to graphs. 

 

 

Of course I can prove it.   Like I said, it's competitive with the low end DC to DC designs, like the Pure Power 11, and System Power 9.  And they win one category by default.   What chance do think a unit without that advantage is going to have?  I haven't done it to date because I don't think you guys really want to know.  I mean how have you guys gone 2+ years believing this nonsense?   At some point, someone should have asked themselves how Seasonic developed their amazing reputation when their best selling unit was over the past 15 years is supposedly an "office grade" unit.  You should have asked yourselves why Antec, XFX, Corsair, and PCP&C, all had such great reputations when using it.   Not to mention the excellent pro reviews.  Something should have clicked, but it didn't because you really didn't want to know.

 

BUT......if you are genuinely open to the idea that you might have been wrong all this time.....I will make the case.  But the idea that you were misled for 2 years isn't an easy pill to swallow.  Trust me.  I have been there.

 

 

[FALC0N]

On 9/25/2019 at 6:07 AM, 5x5 said:

Dude, you're so wrong and so worked up it's actually hilarious.  I get you like SeaSonic but you gotta accept reality and that no company or entity is infallible. Stop the random baseless hate and chill

 

Except I'm not wrong.  And I glad you mentioned this because there is a REASON I object to this nonsense.

 

A couple weeks back a guy with an S12II 620 came here looking for advice on a new GPU.  He wanted to know if his PSU could handle it.  This was NOT a new build.  He was just upgrading the GPU, which was fine with his setup.  He was immediately descended upon by posters trying to convince him that his system was going to blow up and he should buy a System Power 9 or Pure Power 11.  

 

It's one thing to argue that the System Power 9 is better for a NEW build, but this guy already had a perfectly good PSU in the same class.  You guys were trying to convince him to basically waste $60-80 based on a completely nonsensical narrative.  Being that far off the mark when its just a theoretical exercise is one thing.   Convincing people to waste their hard earned money is something else.  Sixty to eighty bucks is a lot of money for some people. That's not cool.

[5x5]

4 hours ago, FALC0N said:

 

Except I'm not wrong.  And I glad you mentioned this because there is a REASON I object to this nonsense.

 

A couple weeks back a guy with an S12II 620 came here looking for advice on a new GPU.  He wanted to know if his PSU could handle it.  This was NOT a new build.  He was just upgrading the GPU, which was fine with his setup.  He was immediately descended upon by posters trying to convince him that his system was going to blow up and he should buy a System Power 9 or Pure Power 11.  

 

It's one thing to argue that the System Power 9 is better for a NEW build, but this guy already had a perfectly good PSU in the same class.  You guys were trying to convince him to basically waste $60-80 based on a completely nonsensical narrative.  Being that far off the mark when its just a theoretical exercise is one thing.   Convincing people to waste their hard earned money is something else.  Sixty to eighty bucks is a lot of money for some people. That's not cool.

The S12II isn't good though. It's meh/mediocre/lacking. And even a CX550, which runs for 40-50$, not 60-80, is a massive upgrade in 2019. Stop trying to skew the narrative because you like SeaSonic. O also like them. I have an S12G but they're slipping and if we don't hold them accountable as users and critics, well end up with more degeneracy like CX Green

[Rexper]

On 9/24/2019 at 4:15 PM, LukeSavenije said:

focus should be fixed with the new gx, px and gm. but since no-one has overloaded yet, we can't make it sure

So a manufacturer that claims to fix a specific issue in the newer model is less reliable than power supplies without anyone testing them that far?

 

Seriously, that was very high overload ripple testing. Most power supplies on this list haven't been tested like that. Therefore all of them should also drop to tier D.

[LukeSavenije]

2 minutes ago, Rexper said:

So a manufacturer that claims to fix a specific issue in the newer model is less reliable than power supplies without anyone testing them that far?

well... from what i've heard is that they make changes, they never specifically pointed out that it's fixed

 

hence temporary position

[Blademaster91]

21 minutes ago, 5x5 said:

The S12II isn't good though. It's meh/mediocre/lacking. And even a CX550, which runs for 40-50$, not 60-80, is a massive upgrade in 2019. Stop trying to skew the narrative because you like SeaSonic. O also like them. I have an S12G but they're slipping and if we don't hold them accountable as users and critics, well end up with more degeneracy like CX Green

I don't see where they said the S12II was any better, but it's very misleading to convince someone to buy a new PSU when they aren't building a whole system,and their current unit works just fine. It's like people having a clear narrative against Seasonic because oh no it doesn't handle an overload that really no one is going to push on their PC with a single graphics card.

[LukeSavenije]

1 minute ago, Blademaster91 said:

I don't see where they said the S12II was any better, but it's very misleading to convince someone to buy a new PSU when they aren't building a whole system,and their current unit works just fine. It's like people having a clear narrative against Seasonic because oh no it doesn't handle an overload that really no one is going to push on their PC with a single graphics card.

i understand what you mean here, but you forget two things i've noted earlier about the s12ii/m12ii and many other older units

• a complete lack of undervoltage protection
• out of spec possible if you load the 12v too much while loading the 5v too little

 

the overloading issues are on the focus and focus+ line

[5x5]

25 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

I don't see where they said the S12II was any better, but it's very misleading to convince someone to buy a new PSU when they aren't building a whole system,and their current unit works just fine. It's like people having a clear narrative against Seasonic because oh no it doesn't handle an overload that really no one is going to push on their PC with a single graphics card.

S12II is a product of it's time. Was good in 2014, not so much in 2019

[Azims]

CX is better than CXM confirmed by JonnyGuru.
https://youtu.be/QJ_VV3UjEBY?t=1196