X-Com successor Phoenix Point pulls out of GOG/Steam due to Epic payday

[D13H4RD]

[xAcid9]

4 minutes ago, D13H4RD said:

-snip-

The dev actually approached Epic and instead of asking to have their new game to be available on Epic store they instead choose to take the incentive of being exclusive to Epic store. 

 

They basically use the Kickstarter money to make the game complete enough to get big publisher attention and then give middle finger to those that pledged. They don't even care if 100% of Kickstarter pledgers request a refund. 

[D13H4RD]

18 minutes ago, Suika said:

Wait, so did Epic Games legitimately spend over $2,000,000 to make this exclusive to their launcher?

 

With that kind of money, they probably could have hired capable developers to make a more compelling platform instead.

Ah, but you see, that would make way too much sense and would require more effort.

 

Why do that when you can spend the same amount to have a game as an exclusive on your platform?

[Hellion]

This is why you never pre order kids. That includes crowd backing/go fund me, etc.

 

But at the end of the day it doesn't really matter because a good portion of you are supporting this by playing trash like fortnite...

[D13H4RD]

3 minutes ago, xAcid9 said:

The dev actually approached Epic and instead of asking to have their new game to be available on Epic store they instead choose to take the incentive of being exclusive to Epic store. 

 

They basically use the Kickstarter money to make the game complete enough to get big publisher attention and then give middle finger to those that pledged. They don't even care if 100% of Kickstarter pledgers request a refund. 

And that's the real scum in this.

 

It's not the exclusivity deal itself. It's the way this was done. Get Kickstarter money and pre-orders. Then go to Epic and gain exclusivity rights in exchange for a lot of money while also shamelessly claiming that even if the game flopped, they wouldn't be in financial trouble anyhow due to said deal.

 

Developers like this are not worth anyone's time. The game may very well be good, but this tactic is beyond scummy. And the really sad part is that you can't really vote with your wallet, because they'd still be fine anyhow financially even if the game fails to sell well due to Epic's revenue guarantees. That said, who knows how long that will last given that Fortnite is waning in popularity.

[Humbug]

2 hours ago, Bcat00 said:

I actually don't get why people would be annoyed. The game is still coming regardless of the platform.

All they need to do is download the Epic game store, how hard is that?

PC gaming should not go in a direction where stores are bribing 3rd party devs to keep a game off other stores. It's already a toxic practice in the console world.

 

It degenerates into a store arms race with bad consequences. It's the same principle of paid exclusivity contracts that has made some devs unable to release their game on PC because they signed with some console company, or we have seen some devs not be able to release on Linux due to being disallowed from using stores which support Linux like GOG and steam.

 

We should not create silos in the industry. It's healthier if developers retain their rights to sell their game anywhere they want. That includes the right to wake up one day and decide, "let me launch on xyz store this week, maybe we can sell another thousand copies".

 

So if Epic was competing honestly they would promote the lower cut to devs and devs would gradually come onboard. Some would be on other stores too, some may be epic exclusive. But that exclusivity would not be mandated by a contract, it would be the devs decision at any time to stick only to this platform or to sell elsewhere too. 

[Jito463]

11 hours ago, mr moose said:

Personally I'd like to see precedent set that what ever was promised at the time of funding must be honored unless both parties agree to an alternative.

I'm not sure that's such a good idea.  I've crowd funded many projects, and as much as I'd like to see every project delivered as promised, sometimes the creator needs to modify things in order to make it actually happen.  A ruling like that could stifle and potentially kill crowd funding.  If you have even just a small handful of backers who decide to press the issue, it could tie up the project in the courts and then everyone loses.

[Anomnomnomaly]

This is classic... first Epic piss of people with spyware that steals peoples steam info even if they didn't buy the game on steam... Now they steal another game from steam/gog users (and backers) and piss of even more people.

 

Are they trying to out do EA and take the top spot of most hated game publisher?

 

I've not bought an EA game in more than a decade because they're not fit to earn my money (I may play them via any other means I see fit to take advantage of though).. and now Epic is on the same list.

 

 

[Suika]

9 hours ago, Humbug said:

So if Epic was competing honestly they would promote the lower cut to devs and devs would gradually come onboard. Some would be on other stores too, some may be epic exclusive. But that exclusivity would not be mandated by a contract, it would be the devs decision at any time to stick only to this platform or to sell elsewhere too. 

At the risk of sounding like I support Epic Games here, to be fair to them, Steam has a massive stranglehold on the market, and the Epic Games launcher in its current state offers absolutely nothing against Steam (as far as features and titles). Buying major exclusive titles would help them build up the user base to give developers an actual incentive, because let's be fair, even if Epic Games offers a better cut than Steam, what's that better cut going to matter if absolutely nobody is going to buy the version that pays out better?

 

If the Epic Games client was actually competitive with Steam in feature set and didn't have developers pull these bait and switches, I wouldn't object to Epic Games purchasing exclusives titles, but the way they've decided to go about their business doing so has made me object to the platform as a whole until it ceases.

[CarlBar]

45 minutes ago, Suika said:

If the Epic Games client was actually competitive with Steam in feature set and didn't have developers pull these bait and switches, I wouldn't object to Epic Games purchasing exclusives titles, but the way they've decided to go about their business doing so has made me object to the platform as a whole until it ceases.

 

Honestly if what Epic had done was approach a bunch of games companies and asked what they could invest in in terms of upcoming unannounced projects, and then agreed to invest in select titles in exchange for the exclusivity i wouldn't be so annoyed, it's the bait and switch they're pulling by poaching titles allready announced on other platforms.

[Delicieuxz]

Below are a couple of on-point quotes about the situation that are featured in this video. And I think that these quotes outline a basis for potential legal action against Pheonix Point.

 

 

Quote

As a company you shouldn't take people's money by making certain alluring promises, spend that money, and then when things are going well for you back-track on promises before giving the money back when customers' money and satisfaction is no longer as pivotal for your long-term success and survival. Customers aren't there to act as temporary interest-free loan services, they are there to back projects so they can support the fulfillment of certain promises.

 

And as far as games go, ensuring they release on stipulated platforms is an important part of that. Add on as many platforms as you want, but do not take away any of them, especially if it means breaking your word after you have people's money and done what you need with it. It will only make backers feel like they have been used and exploited, rather than valued as huge contributors to getting the crowd-funded game off the ground.

 

Quote

"I think what makes this particularly galling is how they basically used us backers as an interest-free loan. They took our money, developed to the point where it was mature enough to attract external investors, then totally changed the game plan and fully expect us to withdraw our cash, since they're now out of the high-risk phase of the project.

 

The conned us into lending them the money, and manoeuvered it so we'd be sitting on the bill if the development project failed. For a game that sold itself based on community involvement, with backer builds and all, this is just awful."

[D13H4RD]

10 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

snip

All of this is why I never do Kickstarters and also why I really hope this all blows up in their faces.

 

But given the attitude of the devs in how they claim that the additional funding by Epic basically gave them a huge safety net by keeping the dev's financials in the black even if the game is counted as a total failure...

[Jito463]

31 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

 

Honestly if what Epic had done was approach a bunch of games companies and asked what they could invest in in terms of upcoming unannounced projects, and then agreed to invest in select titles in exchange for the exclusivity i wouldn't be so annoyed, it's the bait and switch they're pulling by poaching titles allready announced on other platforms.

Discord (?) basically did that, and they didn't have anywhere near the backlash that Epic is getting.  I'm still not a fan of exclusivity, but at least by investing in the development process, they're not just taking a near sure thing and coming in at the last minute to say "It's mine, mine, mine!".  Investing in the development process is at least shouldering some of the risk involved, which I can respect.

[The Benjamins]

12 hours ago, Hellion said:

This is why you never pre order kids. That includes crowd backing/go fund me, etc.

 

But at the end of the day it doesn't really matter because a good portion of you are supporting this by playing trash like fortnite...

anyone that thinks a crowd backing campaign is a pre order should never back anything.

 

Backing products/idea is fine if they understand what they are doing.

[Delicieuxz]

I love a good crowd-funded campaign for a game, and I think that PC gaming today would suck a lot more if KickStarter hadn't become a thing.

 

The resurgence of the isometric PCRPG genre is squarely due to KickStarter campaigns. So is Double Fine's stability which, whatever you think of Broken Age, a Psychonauts 2 is a product of - and likely so also is Ron Gilbert's Thimbleweed Park.

 

And all the KS projects I backed other than Star Citizen (which is partly released and still coming) have released and been worth backing, to me:

 

Pillars of Eternity

Wasteland 2

Broken Age

Toejam & Earl Back in the Groove

Divinity: Original Sin

Kona

Torment: Tides of Numenera

The Banner Saga

 

[Humbug]

3 hours ago, Suika said:

At the risk of sounding like I support Epic Games here, to be fair to them, Steam has a massive stranglehold on the market, and the Epic Games launcher in its current state offers absolutely nothing against Steam (as far as features and titles). Buying major exclusive titles would help them build up the user base to give developers an actual incentive, because let's be fair, even if Epic Games offers a better cut than Steam, what's that better cut going to matter if absolutely nobody is going to buy the version that pays out better?

The way you do it as a new store is that you approach lots of devs. You pitch to them

-we plan to be a major competitor to steam

-we bundle unreal engine for free

-we have a fair user base already thanks to our first party games like Fortnite

-you will get greater visibility on our store compared to steam where you are drowned out by thousands of other games

-You have nothing to lose by selling your game on one more store, in fact you can only gain from this since you get a larger piece of the pie

 

^^This is how you pitch to devs, you get them to come onboard with you. It's not a difficult pitch since you are not asking them to remove the game from other stores. Plenty of devs will come onboard because they want to support another player. Then you build up like that over the years by continuously getting more devs and improving your store. If you do it right you could even come to the point some day where your market share is big enough that some devs don't bother with steam anymore.

[Humbug]

3 hours ago, Suika said:

If the Epic Games client was actually competitive with Steam in feature set and didn't have developers pull these bait and switches, I wouldn't object to Epic Games purchasing exclusives titles, but the way they've decided to go about their business doing so has made me object to the platform as a whole until it ceases.

I know that some people do think along these lines. They know that exclusivity bribes are evil but they think sometimes the ends justify the means. With the end in this case being more competition to steam. I strongly disagree. I think that people only say this because they have not thought it through.

 

Imagine in the year 2025 a world where the Epic Store has become the dominant PC games store. Paying money to 3rd party devs for exclusivity contracts will then be the norm in pc gaming. Then if another small PC games store pops up the developers will not have the freedom to support that store with day one releases unless they break their contracts with Epic. It will be a different world from today where an independent dev is free to launch simultaneously on Steam/GOG/Orgin etc. Is that the future we want for PC gaming?

 

Let's take another example. Click on the below link to see the current best selling games on GOG

https://www.gog.com/games?page=1&sort=popularity

90% of these games are also available on steam. Now let's say Valve decides to throw their billions of dollars around, they could approach all these devs and ask them to sign exclusivity contracts with steam. GOG will have to close down!

 

If we allow paid exclusivity then this is what pc gaming will become.

[IceCold008]

Looking forward to playing this when its released. I love the X-COM series. 

[CarlBar]

3 hours ago, Jito463 said:

Discord (?) basically did that, and they didn't have anywhere near the backlash that Epic is getting.  I'm still not a fan of exclusivity, but at least by investing in the development process, they're not just taking a near sure thing and coming in at the last minute to say "It's mine, mine, mine!".  Investing in the development process is at least shouldering some of the risk involved, which I can respect.

 

[CarlBar]

57 minutes ago, Humbug said:

I know that some people do think along these lines. They know that exclusivity bribes are evil but they think sometimes the ends justify the means. With the end in this case being more competition to steam. I strongly disagree. I think that people only say this because they have not thought it through.

 

Imagine in the year 2025 a world where the Epic Store has become the dominant PC games store. Paying money to 3rd party devs for exclusivity contracts will then be the norm in pc gaming. Then if another small PC games store pops up the developers will not have the freedom to support that store with day one releases unless they break their contracts with Epic. It will be a different world from today where an independent dev is free to launch simultaneously on Steam/GOG/Orgin etc. Is that the future we want for PC gaming?

 

Let's take another example. Click on the below link to see the current best selling games on GOG

https://www.gog.com/games?page=1&sort=popularity

90% of these games are also available on steam. Now let's say Valve decides to throw their billions of dollars around, they could approach all these devs and ask them to sign exclusivity contracts with steam. GOG will have to close down!

 

If we allow paid exclusivity then this is what pc gaming will become.

 

If they keep going for exclusives after they get traction then it's a different matter, but that has a cost as a business attached to it allowing others to undercut them.

[jagdtigger]

On 3/16/2019 at 1:44 PM, WereCatf said:

hey, we are changing the deal and there's nothing you can do about it

[Humbug]

On 3/18/2019 at 2:41 AM, CarlBar said:

 

If they keep going for exclusives after they get traction then it's a different matter, but that has a cost as a business attached to it allowing others to undercut them.

Clearly 'paid exclusivity deals' are their way of dealing with competitors. If they are willing to do it now you can be sure they will do it in the future when another competitor threatens them. Even if they stop inbetween. 

[Jito463]

You know what would be funny, if Valve took all the millions they're raking in and bought out an exclusivity deal with Epic, just to tell the publisher they can launch on any stores they like (so long as it's also on Steam, of course).  That would be a real slap in the face to Epic.  Heck, I'd chip in a few bucks just to see that happen.

[CarlBar]

2 hours ago, Humbug said:

Clearly 'paid exclusivity deals' are there way of dealing with competitors. If they are willing to do it now you can be sure they will do it in the future when another competitor threatens them. Even if they stop inbetween. 

 

Sure but once again it has a cost to it, you can outcompete them if they're doing that. Buying exclusivity isn't free at the end of the day.

[Anomnomnomaly]

Paid exclusives automatically lose my money... I'm not buying a specific system or using a specific store just because it has a specific game on it. A fool and their money are soon parted and all that.

 

There are dozens of great games out there... I can happily play all of those in the time before any 'exclusive' deals run out... and by that time I'll probably be able to pick up the game on sale for 80% less with all DLC included.

 

I've got more than 200 games on steam, another 30 or so on Uplay and a dozen on GOG... I refuse to use origin because I will never buy an EA game ever, and after being a former support of Epic... they've burnt that bridge now with attempts to bribe people onto their stores with paid exclusives and spyware.

 

I'm not saying I'll never buy another Epic released game ever again... just that I'll never buy from their store.