Windows 10 Insider Topic

[GoodBytes]

44 minutes ago, gabrielcarvfer said:

Just morphed the thing into Mac OS lock screen.

It's kind of getting patetic at this point: why do they keep doing that kind of stuff instead of really fixing broken stuff on Windows?

Well, to be fair, Apple copied Microsoft a lot in GUI design and GUI experiences. And Apple copied a lot from Apple and Microsoft, and Linux based OS xWindows "platform" copies a lot from Microsoft and Apple. Everyone seeks the best visual experiences, and they take what works and not.

 

 

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Installers for example: Jesus Christ, just copy the damned .app thing from Apple and get rid of installers once and for all. Nobody likes installers, just syncing app folders between computers would make software deployment much easier. 

Installers is the core feature of the OS, that is like saying to to all Linux/Unix based OS "forget your repository, it sucks! Do like Apple or Microsoft"

The reality of things is that each has their strength and weaknesses.

 

Apple method doesn't give the user any explanation that you need to take some random icon and drop it in some folder icon... why do that? Why not just install directly? Why not "Are you sure?" Yes/No, pick Yes, done! And why can't you say where the program can be installed? I want to install my applications on specific locations including other drives. Same issue with Linux/GNU based OS, you just can't. And as much Linux loves to say "hey look! reusable libraries! No wasted space!", the reality of things is that you updates takes ages to install in comparison and it is really easy to get conflicts which are difficult to impossible to really solve, not to mention the inability to have the same app, installed twice, but not the same version (I mean you can, but not easy). And how about network deployment of programs? In a company, if you want to install Program A to a group of people specifically, or everyone, you can (assuming the setup support this (basically: An .msi (Microsoft Installer) and not some custom thing or an alternate installer that a developer uses, that may or may not support the system that msi support, which it can). Oh and why Apple installer system, doesn't allow custom program icon for the setup, and shows an drive icon instead (I mean I know why, as it is basically an ISO file which gets mounted and now you have a drive with the program icon.. but that is beside the point), and why does it need to verify the setup when you start the setup, just start the setup already!. And when you drag the icon and drop it on the Application folder, why do you need to his "Authenticate", and then enter your user name and password, and then it copies, with no information if it was a success or not.

 

In the end, a Windows Installer, is like a zip file. But it can show additional info such as EULA, can check for compatibility issues, can register needed files, run other setups that it may carry, run the program, and can extract things at specific location needed, and of course make shortcuts. You can make your own. Some companies make their own (it is just a program with files embedded in itself and usually compressed, in the end) . The setup model of Windows allows maximum flexibility to developers and users (for example, ability to install only some things of the program... for example, you could install Visual Studio full suit... but if you only do C/C++ only, why install all the database stuff? Why install C#, Universal App, Android emulator, Xamarin, and so on. And how about EULAs? Skip that? Sure, no one read them, but you'll have that when you first run the program instead. Sooo same thing.

 

Now, if the developers does a piss poor job with their uninstaller to remove everything it installed or the program creates, don't include everything the program actually needs to run, includes other programs that you don't want, includes ads in the setup.. that is out of the hands of Microsoft. You are the user, don't use their program. Simple as that, and share your disagreement, and changes will occur. Already, you don't see as much setups wanting to install Chrome, or some other shit with it. Also more and more setups are simplifying the setup, removing the "start menu location" page, removing the "welcome" page, removing the "conclusion/result" page. It's more, you run, get the program name, EULA on the same page, then install location, then it installs, then a last page where you have the checkbox to run the program once the setup finishes which also tells you that the program was successfully installed.

 

And keep in mind that UWP apps does have their setup for external store downloads. And that one is closer to Apple model. You have a confirmation to install, where it gives you information on the program, let alone its name, and done... no install location no nothing extra.

 

 

Few.... all to say... all method sucks, and are all the best. They all have their strength and weaknesses. Grass is not greener on the other side.... it is just as brown as yours.

 

[AlTech]

Ooooh, new VS update allows C++ ARM64 dev stuff .

 

 

Guessing this means UWP ARM64 apps are gonna become a thing soon ish .

[Master Disaster]

Don't panic if you're an Insider who is testing the imminent October update for Microsoft, this doesn't concern you however if your brave (or stupid) enough to have the Skip Ahead option checked then by now you should already know about this anyway. For those who don't know Skip Ahead means you're testing a build that's one ahead of the next build, it's effectively the bleeding edge of the bleeding edge.

 

Seems like yesterday Microsoft pushed a new insider build for the Skip Ahead users and at first build 18237 seemed good, users were reporting on a new blurred login screen.

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Windows Insiders eager to get their hands on next year's Microsoft OS were reminded last night that living on the bleeding edge can have its downsides, as the update consumed RAM at a prodigious rate for some before falling over.

 

It all began so well. Build 18237 was emitted with the usual degree of fanfare. Now given a disappointingly logical codename of 19H1 rather than the whimsy of Redstone, the code is available to Insiders who have opted to "skip ahead" past the impending October 2018 Update, and will eventually ship next year.

 

Among a raft of fixes was the slapping of acrylic over the Windows login screen, which the Insider team reckoned moves "the actionable controls up in the visual hierarchy while maintaining their accessibility". Vulture Central would contend it looks more like someone has smeared the display with Vaseline.

 

A cynic might spot more than a passing resemblance to macOS while an old gamer may reminisce about Half-Life 2 loading screens.

Very quickly however things started going wrong, users were reporting HUGE RAM usage, installs taking hours to finish, installs not finishing at all and green screen of deaths.

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Unfortunately, the wheels quickly came off the Insider train as Microsoft's army of excited testers found themselves encountering issues ranging from a total failure to even download the thing, installs taking an age to complete, and epic memory consumption through to Green Screens of Death.

When the floods of bug reports started MS issued this tweet.

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It transpired that an encrypted version of build 18237 had been put out by the Insider team, which was quickly rectified. However, users continued to encounter problems.

Unfortunately it seems as though affected users are stuck either restoring from backup or reinstalling entirely to resolve this problem.

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Fans hoping to see a fashionably blurry login screen, but instead staring at a stuck progress bar or (worse) an esoteric error code are encouraged to log the problem on Microsoft's feedback hub. Getting ready to restore from a backup might be a good idea too.

 

Windows Insiders have been somewhat spoiled by the stability of recent output from Microsoft. Last night's fun is a gentle reminder from Dona Sarkar and her team that sometimes things can go badly wrong when tinkering with preview code. So be careful out there.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/AMP/2018/09/13/windows_insider_18237/

 

Well bleeding edge comes with problems for sure but this is a bad cock up from MS.

[vanished]

I didn't realize this even existed.  Why does it exist?  Why on earth would they be working on the release after the one they're, well, working on, because it's next and currently unfinished?  And why on earth would anyone want to try running that!?

 

It's like building the roof before the walls are finished.

Actually no, it's like building the walls before the blueprint/design is even settled

[Bananasplit_00]

1 minute ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

I didn't realize this even existed.  Why does it exist?  Why on earth would they be working on the release after the one they're, well, working on, because it's next and currently unfinished?  And why on earth would anyone want to try running that!?

[ZacoAttaco]

17 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

For those who don't know Skip Ahead means you're testing a build that's one ahead of the next build, it's effectively the bleeding edge of the bleeding edge.

 

Very quickly however things started going wrong, users were reporting HUGE RAM usage, installs taking hours to finish, installs not finishing at all and green screen of deaths.

And I heard they didn't even have Chrome installed.

17 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Well bleeding edge comes with problems for sure but this is a bad cock up from MS.

All seriousness though, I hope no one was too badly affected by this. Microsoft essentially corrupted their Windows install. So basically, someone accidentally released the wrong build. Someone is probably fired

[GoldenLag]

if you are going to go the bleeding edge of bleeding edge of alpha. remember to have blood left, because you will bleed quite a bit

[Sauron]

46 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

I didn't realize this even existed.  Why does it exist?  Why on earth would they be working on the release after the one they're, well, working on, because it's next and currently unfinished?  And why on earth would anyone want to try running that!?

 

It's like building the roof before the walls are finished.

Actually no, it's like building the walls before the blueprint/design is even settled

Presumably they have multiple teams working on different features and they merge the progress made in build N with build N+1 as it approaches completion. The build is probably identical to the october update but with a few more features and tweaks. Unlike walls, software can work well enough even before it's completed ^^

[Master Disaster]

4 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

if you are going to go the bleeding edge of bleeding edge of alpha. remember to have blood left, because you will bleed quite a bit

Yeah, you have to expect bugs, possibly bugs serious enough to cause major problems but I'd argue you don't expect issues caused by the developer releasing a build that never should have been released.

 

With that said though whether you expect it or not it is par for the course when testing that far ahead. It shouldn't have happened but it did.

[GoldenLag]

1 minute ago, Master Disaster said:

Yeah, you have to expect bugs, possibly bugs serious enough to cause major problems but I'd argue you don't expect issues caused by the developer releasing a build that never should have been released.

 

With that said though whether you expect it or not it is par for the course when testing that far ahead. It shouldn't have happened but it did.

Its a pretty bad cockup indeed. You would expect to have some sort of failsafe to keep this from happening. They might have one, but it failed this time. 

 

Though the blurred login screen is kinda neat. Hooefully it would be customizable using software like wallpaperengine, but i doubt it

[Master Disaster]

4 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Presumably they have multiple teams working on different features and they merge the progress made in build N with build N+1 as it approaches completion. The build is probably identical to the october update but with a few more features and tweaks. Unlike walls, software can work well enough even before it's completed ^^

I've heard from multiple people (albeit not exactly reliable ones) that that's how MS do their Windows development. They have what's called a master build (essentially the current RTM build) then they have teams working on different features separately all maintaining their own sub build. Once a week/month (no one seems totally sure) all the sub builds are merged at the source code level then somehow multiple new potential master builds are generated. These new builds are bug tested and the least buggy is brought forward as the new source build for the entire process to start all over again.

 

I'm not sure if I believe it or not but like I say, I've heard it from multiple independent YouTubers so there must be, at least a small element of truth to it somewhere.

[NelizMastr]

You're honestly a twat anyway if you run bleeding edge on a production system. Insider is for test rigs. If you main this, you're just as big of a cock as Microsoft here, lol.

[Sfekke]

1 hour ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

I didn't realize this even existed.  Why does it exist?  Why on earth would they be working on the release after the one they're, well, working on, because it's next and currently unfinished?  And why on earth would anyone want to try running that!?

 

It's like building the roof before the walls are finished.

Actually no, it's like building the walls before the blueprint/design is even settled

Isn't this MS in a nutshell?

They never finish it logically these days, look at the Settings App & Control Panel.

Both exist, neither are finished.

[Master Disaster]

Call me a tin foil hatter if you like but when things like this happen theres always a small part of me that wonders if it's deliberate.

 

I'm no software engineer but I gotta wonder if MS are secretly testing some new encryption engine in the wild and using live machines to gather debug data.

 

Yeah I know what y'all are thinking.

[schwellmo92]

15 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

I've heard from multiple people (albeit not exactly reliable ones) that that's how MS do their Windows development. They have what's called a master build (essentially the current RTM build) then they have teams working on different features separately all maintaining their own sub build. Once a week/month (no one seems totally sure) all the sub builds are merged at the source code level then somehow multiple new potential master builds are generated. These new builds are bug tested and the least buggy is brought forward as the new source build for the entire process to start all over again.

 

I'm not sure if I believe it or not but like I say, I've heard it from multiple independent YouTubers so there must be, at least a small element of truth to it somewhere.

What you just described is scaled software development, that’s exactly how it would work, across every large organisation that develops software.

[schwellmo92]

2 minutes ago, Sfekke said:

Isn't this MS in a nutshell?

They never finish it logically these days, look at the Settings App & Control Panel.

Both exist, neither are finished.

It’s software development in a nutshell, and it’s not necessarily a bad thing. You release smaller, more frequent increments of a product, that way you can gather data and feedback and iterate if need be. Otherwise you end up spending way to long developing this polished end-to-end feature and release it in one big bang to only find out it’s rubbish and it’s going to be scrapped.

[Arika]

so wait. there's normal users, windows insider, which get updates sooner, and then "skip ahead" users which get updates even before the insiders?

 

so essentially

Normal = Stable updates

Insider = Beta updates

Skip ahead = Alpha updates

 

[Master Disaster]

6 minutes ago, schwellmo92 said:

What you just described is scaled software development, that’s exactly how it would work, across every large organisation that develops software.

My doubts stemmed from the final step. Let's assume the Theme & Skinning team do lots of work on build A, at the end of the cycle they submit their build A to be merged. During the merging and bug testing phase it's decided that build B is the next master build but for whatever reason a lot of what the Theme & Skinning team develooed didn't make it into build B. That not only means they spent a cycle coding for nothing but now they have to scrap last cycles work entirely and start again on the new build.

 

Seems like a very wasteful process to me.

[TetraSky]

These kind of issues come with the "job description".

If you want to essentially be the tester of a pre-alpha version, you should expect things to fuck up and not use it as your daily OS.

[GoodBytes]

Merge thread to Windows 10 Insider forum thread.

[GoodBytes]

2 hours ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

I didn't realize this even existed.  Why does it exist?  Why on earth would they be working on the release after the one they're, well, working on, because it's next and currently unfinished?  And why on earth would anyone want to try running that!?

 

It's like building the roof before the walls are finished.

Actually no, it's like building the walls before the blueprint/design is even settled

You have multiple teams at Microsoft. Each team works on different features of the OS.

You have another team that assemble everyone's works, makes a build out of it, passes through the flow bellow, to evaluate its stability, and released to Insider.

Add "Skip Ahead" ring between "Microsoft" and "Windows Insider Fast" rings on the top graph which is a ring that appears and disappears.

It only appears when Microsoft is currently have the teams that works on selected features to be released in a the next version working on last bug fixes and polish, as the version is close to be released. Yes, it can happen that a feature or change is removed at the last minute if it is not ready for mass deployment in time for the schedules version release.

 

As @schwellmo92 explained, this is how software development work in large company working on a large project. The model is called: Agile, which is a few variation off mostly adapted to the company needs, but the main ideology is the same. They are books on this.

[GoodBytes]

Microsoft has started to encrypt its internal builds due to past leaks. Noticed how you no longer have leak of builds. You only have from information on what is being worked on.

Normally, the release to public are decrypted before release (so if that leaks, well, it out of in the public in any case). It looks like someone forgot to do decrypt before. That is all. Human error. If you have the RAM and CPU performance, you probably didn't notice a thing. Regardless, Microsoft quickly re-released it without being encrypted.

 

[GoodBytes]

38 minutes ago, TetraSky said:

These kind of issues come with the "job description".

If you want to essentially be the tester of a pre-alpha version, you should expect things to fuck up and not use it as your daily OS.

Microsoft makes is clean that if you join the Insider program, any rings:

• do not use it on your main system
• backup your data
• be prepared to re-install your OS at any time.

[schwellmo92]

18 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

My doubts stemmed from the final step. Let's assume the Theme & Skinning team do lots of work on build A, at the end of the cycle they submit their build A to be merged. During the merging and bug testing phase it's decided that build B is the next master build but for whatever reason a lot of what the Theme & Skinning team develooed didn't make it into build B. That not only means they spent a cycle coding for nothing but now they have to scrap last cycles work entirely and start again on the new build.

 

Seems like a very wasteful process to me.

That very last bit was not correct. They don't decide which build from which team to release, each team would have their own branch that the team are continuously merging in to, at the end of the week/month/as-required they would then merge that branch in to the master branch for release. Lets say a team currently has some buggy code so their branch isn't merged in to master at the interval and included in the next release, that doesn't mean their code gets scrapped, they can simply update their branch to the current latest code and apply their changes over the top. They can then continue working as they were and hopefully work out the kinks and make the next release.

[Sharp_3yE]

On 9/14/2018 at 4:41 AM, GoodBytes said:

Microsoft makes is clean that if you join the Insider program, any rings:

• do not use it on your main system
• backup your data
• be prepared to re-install your OS at any time.

I need to reinstall Windows cuz a couple problems have arrived after so many updates. I can use Hey Cortina. She just doesnt hear me. That B**** but anyway. I just haven't taken the time cuz I would rather use my pc then reinstall crap and set things back they way I like it.