Posted November 14, 2017 https://torrentfreak.com/microsoft-sued-over-baseless-piracy-threats-171113/ Quote Microsoft and the BSA are accusing Rhode Island-based company Hanna Instruments of pirating software. Despite facing threats of millions of dollars in damages the company maintains its innocence, backed up by license keys and purchase receipts. The BSA's lawyers are not convinced, however, so Hanna have decided to take the matter to court. Quote Hanna’s management wasn’t aware of any pirated products but after repeated requests, the company decided to go ahead and conduct a thorough investigation. The results, combined in a detailed spreadsheet, showed that it purchased 126 copies of Microsoft Office software, while only 120 were in use. Perfectly fine, they assumed, but the BSA was not convinced. Since Hanna only had Microsoft generated key cards for the most recent purchases, the company used purchase orders, requisitions, and price quotes to prove that it properly licensed earlier copies of Microsoft Office. Not good enough, according to the BSA, which wanted to see money instead. Quote Hanna wasn’t planning to pay and pointed out that they sent in as much proof as they could find, documenting legal purchases of Microsoft Office licenses for a period covering more than ten years. While the BSA appreciated the effort, it didn’t accept this as hard evidence. “…the provision of purchase orders, price quotes, purchase requisitions are not acceptable as valid proof of purchase to our client. Reason being, the aforesaid documents do not demonstrate that a purchase has taken place, they merely establish intent to make a purchase of software,” the BSA wrote in yer another email. Quote Interestingly, the BSA itself still failed to provide any solid proof that Hanna was using unlicensed software. The Rhode Island company repeatedly requested this, but the BSA simply replied that it’s neither appropriate nor efficient to request evidence from their clients in every case. Why am i not surprised... A big corp uses mafia style "pay up or else" threats without any proof to back their claims. Copyright law needs a serious overhaul because this is getting out of hand. In my opinion the burden of providing proof is on the party that makes the accusation not the accused party. It will be interesting to see what the court will decide because so far it seems MS and the BSA is in the wrong here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 4 minutes ago, jagdtigger said: In my opinion the burden of providing proof is on the party that makes the accusation not the accused party. It certainly does, My prediction is the courts will ask BSA (MS) to show viable evidence that the products are in fact non genuine. But only if the judge doesn't first question why a company that can claim said costs against income would not have kept the actual receipts/invoices. Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge. Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 7 minutes ago, jagdtigger said: Copyright law needs a serious overhaul because this is getting out of hand. In my opinion the burden of providing proof is on the party that makes the accusation not the accused party. To be fair, that is already the case. Microsoft and BSA are simply making threats to sue - if they did sue, the burden of proof would still be on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 1 minute ago, mr moose said: It certainly does, My prediction is the courts will ask BSA (MS) to show viable evidence that the products are in fact non genuine. But only if the judge doesn't first question why a company that can claim said costs against income would not have kept the actual receipts/invoices. I don't know how it works in the US, but where I'm from there's a limit to how long you can be expected to keep receipts. It's longer for businesses than individuals, but ten years is still a heck of a long time. Luckily for BSA, the statute of limitations probably doesn't come into play for software that's still in use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 Just now, Sakkura said: I don't know how it works in the US, but where I'm from there's a limit to how long you can be expected to keep receipts. It's longer for businesses than individuals, but ten years is still a heck of a long time. Luckily for BSA, the statute of limitations probably doesn't come into play for software that's still in use. Grey area for me, Because copyright is not physical purchase as such it's more a licensing deal. Without a license agreement or proof of payment (which would be an invoice) the license may not be valid. That is why I think if Hanna are taking MS to court then the burden of proof will be on them to prove they bought the license, however the court will essentially force BSA and MS to provide evidence to the contrary or they won't be able to defend their positions. Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge. Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 In case someone has a legal fetish and has/wants a subscription: https://dockets.justia.com/docket/rhode-island/ridce/1:2017cv00522/43387 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 (edited) Author 4 minutes ago, mr moose said: Grey area for me, Because copyright is not physical purchase as such it's more a licensing deal. Without a license agreement or proof of payment (which would be an invoice) the license may not be valid. That is why I think if Hanna are taking MS to court then the burden of proof will be on them to prove they bought the license, however the court will essentially force BSA and MS to provide evidence to the contrary or they won't be able to defend their positions. To be fair the problematic licenses are "Microsoft generated key cards", these are physical products if i remember correctly, so MS could verify if its theirs or if its a counterfeit... Edited November 14, 2017 by jagdtigger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 5 minutes ago, jagdtigger said: To be fair the problematic licenses are "Microsoft generated key cards" are physical products if i remember correctly, so MS could verify if its theirs or if its a counterfeit... The article doesn't say how many of its license were key cards. If they have enough cards for all their installs then it'll be a walk in the park for one party, if not it might get sticky. EDIT: Either way, I think it's fair to say one party has made a major boo boo and is about to get egg on their face. Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge. Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 Don't buy retail copies of Microsoft Office if you need that many, sign a volume license agreement then this issue wouldn't have happened. Both companies are being idiots heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 1 minute ago, leadeater said: Don't buy retail copies of Microsoft Office if you need that many, sign a volume license agreement then this issue wouldn't have happened. Both companies are being idiots heh. It does seem if you have 100 computers and only one is running an illegitimate copy of windows/office, they'll come after you. It's a mad world out there. Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge. Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 I like how they aren't backing down but decided to sue MS instead. However, seems to me that they should sue BSA as well, if that is possible. The ability to google properly is a skill of its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 oh how i wish games would run on Linux so we could get the hell rid of our dependance on MS... I spent $2500 on building my PC and all i do with it is play no games atm & watch anime at 1080p(finally) watch YT and write essays... nothing, it just sits there collecting dust... Builds: The Toaster Project! Northern Bee! The original LAN PC build log! (Old, dead and replaced by The Toaster Project & 5.0) Spoiler "Here is some advice that might have gotten lost somewhere along the way in your life. #1. Treat others as you would like to be treated. #2. It's best to keep your mouth shut; and appear to be stupid, rather than open it and remove all doubt. #3. There is nothing "wrong" with being wrong. Learning from a mistake can be more valuable than not making one in the first place. Follow these simple rules in life, and I promise you, things magically get easier. " - MageTank 31-10-2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 Author 13 minutes ago, Bananasplit_00 said: oh how i wish games would run on Linux so we could get the hell rid of our dependance on MS... /OFF Your wish already came true: http://store.steampowered.com/linux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 Just now, jagdtigger said: /OFF Your wish already came true: http://store.steampowered.com/linux barely anything i play runs on Linux... no game i actively play is on there. i would have jumped to Linux in an instant if they did... I spent $2500 on building my PC and all i do with it is play no games atm & watch anime at 1080p(finally) watch YT and write essays... nothing, it just sits there collecting dust... Builds: The Toaster Project! Northern Bee! The original LAN PC build log! (Old, dead and replaced by The Toaster Project & 5.0) Spoiler "Here is some advice that might have gotten lost somewhere along the way in your life. #1. Treat others as you would like to be treated. #2. It's best to keep your mouth shut; and appear to be stupid, rather than open it and remove all doubt. #3. There is nothing "wrong" with being wrong. Learning from a mistake can be more valuable than not making one in the first place. Follow these simple rules in life, and I promise you, things magically get easier. " - MageTank 31-10-2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 2 hours ago, Bouzoo said: I like how they aren't backing down but decided to sue MS instead. However, seems to me that they should sue BSA as well, if that is possible. They are suing both BSA and Microsoft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 2 hours ago, Bananasplit_00 said: barely anything i play runs on Linux... no game i actively play is on there. i would have jumped to Linux in an instant if they did... https://www.winehq.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 3 hours ago, Bananasplit_00 said: oh how i wish games would run on Linux so we could get the hell rid of our dependance on MS... A business should have all receipts and should have no problem showing to the BSA that they have purchased their copies. In a company EVERY single tiny purchase is logged and the receipts are stored. They need to in the case of governmental audits and taxes. So something is fishy here. You don't lose a receipt, especially not the bill of software licenses, let alone that kind of money. Here is what I think of some possibilities They genuinely have purchased the license, but used pirated software of Windows and/or Office (IT fault). A or Some, now, ex-employee (ie: they got fired) collected fake evidences and showed to Microsoft and BSA as a "screw you" to the company they used to work for. Not realizing that the company will go after them after, once discovered. This has happened on the company I used to work for. I don't believe that the BSA has no evidence at all, and goes after companies mafia style. Else it would be a known things that they do, many times, in the past, and lawsuits would have happened already, that is why I think it is one of the 2 possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 Just now, Sniperfox47 said: https://www.winehq.org you dont think i have tried that yet?... nothing has gotten them to run. 2 minutes ago, GoodBytes said: A business should have all receipts and should have no problem showing to the BSA that they have purchased their copies. In a company EVERY single tiny purchase is logged and the receipts are stored. They need to in the case of governmental audits and taxes. So something is fishy here. Here is what I think of some possibilities They they genuinely purchased the license, but used pirated software of Windows and/or Office (IT fault). A or Some, now, ex-employee (ie: they got fired) collected fake evidences and showed to Microsoft and BSA as a "screw you" to the company they used to work for. Not realizing that the company will go after them after, once discovered. This has happened on the company I used to work for. I don't believe that the BSA has no evidence at all, and goes after companies mafia style. Else it would be a known things that they do, many times, in the past, and lawsuits would have happened already. sure, this seems pretty plauseable to be honest, but this isnt even close to the only problem i have with MS. I spent $2500 on building my PC and all i do with it is play no games atm & watch anime at 1080p(finally) watch YT and write essays... nothing, it just sits there collecting dust... Builds: The Toaster Project! Northern Bee! The original LAN PC build log! (Old, dead and replaced by The Toaster Project & 5.0) Spoiler "Here is some advice that might have gotten lost somewhere along the way in your life. #1. Treat others as you would like to be treated. #2. It's best to keep your mouth shut; and appear to be stupid, rather than open it and remove all doubt. #3. There is nothing "wrong" with being wrong. Learning from a mistake can be more valuable than not making one in the first place. Follow these simple rules in life, and I promise you, things magically get easier. " - MageTank 31-10-2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 18 minutes ago, Sakkura said: They are suing both BSA and Microsoft. Yes, you are right. Didn't open the link on phone. The ability to google properly is a skill of its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 4 hours ago, mr moose said: It certainly does, My prediction is the courts will ask BSA (MS) to show viable evidence that the products are in fact non genuine. But only if the judge doesn't first question why a company that can claim said costs against income would not have kept the actual receipts/invoices. Because even the tax man only wants 7 years on anything except company ownership records(As in, who owns the company in question). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 43 minutes ago, GoodBytes said: A business should have all receipts and should have no problem showing to the BSA that they have purchased their copies. In a company EVERY single tiny purchase is logged and the receipts are stored. They need to in the case of governmental audits and taxes. So something is fishy here. You don't lose a receipt, especially not the bill of software licenses, let alone that kind of money. Here is what I think of some possibilities They they genuinely purchased the license, but used pirated software of Windows and/or Office (IT fault). A or Some, now, ex-employee (ie: they got fired) collected fake evidences and showed to Microsoft and BSA as a "screw you" to the company they used to work for. Not realizing that the company will go after them after, once discovered. This has happened on the company I used to work for. I don't believe that the BSA has no evidence at all, and goes after companies mafia style. Else it would be a known things that they do, many times, in the past, and lawsuits would have happened already. This is not correct. You do not need to keep records indefinitely. The longest period the IRS can demand you keep records is 7 years, and that period only applies in very specific circumstances. Here, Microsoft is demanding you hypothetically keep records forever, and in these actual instances over 10 years. They appear to have no basis in law for such a demand. Of course you don't believe Microsoft did anything wrong, because you're a massive fanboy of theirs. PS: Microsoft has been sued many times for using mafia-like methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 59 minutes ago, GoodBytes said: A business should have all receipts and should have no problem showing to the BSA that they have purchased their copies. In a company EVERY single tiny purchase is logged and the receipts are stored. I wish I could one day work for such an organized company that doesn't fudges recipes for minor purchases like off the rack or one-time consumer licenses. Truth to be told is unless this is a massive organization (and really, the kind it's difficult for you to make a name and a career for yourself also) it's actually not that common. But well perhaps now you're seeing the Mexican in me and my experience with terribly informal businesses and their practices here so full disclosure I might be just used to terrible practices local to me only. ------- Current Rig ------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 sooo, wait what are they actually sueing microsoft and BSA for? wasted time? defamation? legal costs? seems that they would either have to pay or not depending on judgement Quote Hanna maintained that it didn’t do anything wrong. At this point, they’d spent $25,000 on disproving the BSA’s “baseless” claims, would love to know what this involves though. ◒ ◒ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 6 minutes ago, Sierra Fox said: sooo, wait what are they actually sueing microsoft and BSA for? wasted time? defamation? legal costs? seems that they would either have to pay or not depending on judgement would love to know what this involves though. First and foremost they're simply asking for a declaratory judgment that the allegations by BSA and Microsoft are not true. Basically they don't want to live under the threat of a lawsuit the other way at some unknown point in time, so they sued to get the matter resolved right now. They also want their legal expenses for the matter paid by BSA and Microsoft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 14, 2017 47 minutes ago, Sakkura said: This is not correct. You do not need to keep records indefinitely. The longest period the IRS can demand you keep records is 7 years, and that period only applies in very specific circumstances. Here, Microsoft is demanding you hypothetically keep records forever, and in these actual instances over 10 years. They appear to have no basis in law for such a demand. Yes you do. You keep proof of purchase of licensed software for at least the time you stop using it. What if, say for example, Activation server of Microsoft screws up, or some gen key was made and a or some keys are used by others and now you have system that got deactivated. You have the bill to use as proof of purchase to get a new key from MS. And this applies to ALL software companies that sales software. And how do you know it is over 10 years. No where it says what version of Windows they use. You are assuming what they use. Considering that usually companies takes ~3 years before upgrading to a new version of Windows, and assuming that they are using Windows 7, it means that it has been 5-6 years. Not "more than 10 years". Quote Of course you don't believe Microsoft did anything wrong, because you're a massive fanboy of theirs. The ignorance is strong with this one. I guess you choose to interpret what I say the way you want, and ignore a lot of stuff I say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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