I Knew It. Intel Doesn't Want To Support Kaby Lake On Z370

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, Foxxer said:

So what do you call this? What Intel is doing right now?

Throwing out boards and chips with no backward compatibility? 

 

 

it is what it is. you can call it what ever you want, however that doesn't suddenly make it illegal or anti consumer. 

 

I'm really not sure how people got this idea in their heads that there is some law or convention that says CL had to be compatible with last gen boards.  Intel never said it would be, they haven't done it in the past for more than 2 generations of CPU, they never insinuated they would in the future.   It's like no one has been following the trends at all and are somehow surprised that they continue on the same way.   

 

At the very least people should wait until we actually know the reason why kaby lake won't run in CL boards before spouting off accusations and making assumptions.  Using the same physical socket means jack shit.  Many companies throughout the history of EE reuse the physical sockets (some with very similar pinouts).  It's how they save money, i.e no retooling factories etc.    For all we know the reasoning given by Intel is legit and trying to mix'n'match might leave majority of users with fried parts. 

 

As I said many pages ago,  even if they have only done this for greed reasons (selling 1% more chipsets), they still haven't done anything illegal or anti consumer, and at the very worst it has effected a very small percentage of their customers.

[leadeater]

7 hours ago, chugs said:

But then again if I had brought a Z170 motherboard and was whinging that Coffee Lake wasn't supported then Mr Moose would be well within his right to say that I was being a whinger. 

There's always going to be a chipset that supports the current CPU generation and one newer and the next chipset will support current CPU generation and one older, it's just how it works with the way Intel does stuff.

 

In this case Z170 is the former and Z270 is the latter, knowing what Intel has done for the last roughly 10 years that assumption should have been no forward generation support. I pointed this out earlier in the thread.

 

On 9/28/2017 at 1:48 AM, leadeater said:

Z67: Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge

Z77: Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge

Z87: Haswell and Haswell Refresh

Z97: Haswell, Haswell Refresh and Broadwell

Z170: Skylake and Kaby Lake

Z270: Skylake and Kaby Lake

Z77 is the same situation as Z270, it's not new. You would have been in the same boat if you had brought either of those during their product sales life. Z97 is more an anomaly then the normality for supporting Broadwell but you'll also notice Z170 had no backwards compatibility with it either.

 

I'm not trying to be mean but you should have known.

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, LinusTech said:

As long as you're not buying like.. Windows Phone or something you're going to have a pretty great mobile experience.

Hey I have a Nokia 635, it can send txts and make phone calls. Simply AMAZING!

[chugs]

7 hours ago, mr moose said:

1. there was no implication I had different information.  I actually said no one knew.  The insinuation was that you shouldn't have made a purchase based on lack of information (or assumptions), not that there was contrary information.

 

2. NO, my claim was that Intel had never guaranteed support and that historically you don't get more than 2 years from any one platform, thus making CPU only upgrades a poor choice.

 

3. I was not saying you should have gotten something different, just that you shouldn't have banked on any of it being able to run next gen CPU's.  (this applies to AMD as much as it does to Intel).

 

I think the rest of your post is just you trying to rationalize against my points.  Because you even admitted that the issue was the assumptions you have made, not bad advice or false advertising.

 

 

1. Mr Moose said on 28/9: Maybe you were given really bad advice, but up until the rumours came out that CL was going to be on an 1151 socket everyone thought it was going to be a new socket

 

That is a clear indication you had different information. You did not say whatsoever that "no one knew". You made it clear there was information that indicated it was going to be a different socket in fact. 

 

2. I never asked for a chipset that had support beyond 2 years. I just had a very reasonable expectation based on the Z97 support three generations of products that Z270 would run Coffee Lake. Its not unreasonable and i don't get your persistence in arguing otherwise. 

 

Its not whining and its not a bad or terrible assumption. 

 

A bad assumption would have been the idea that you would have given up by now considering this issue does not impact you whatsoever. 

 

3. So with this comment you insinutated several times that I made the wrong choice buying a Z270 | i7-7700k and then go on to argue later on

 

Just in case no body has told you yet, you get the best you can afford at the time you buy, trying to future proof is futile, always was and always will be.

 

Which is what I did. I then explained to you my purpose in wanting to upgrade which you attacked and misconstrued (after doing it earlier by attacking me for wanting to upgrade my CPU straight away after getting an i7-7700k):

 

so in 2020 you want to buy a 2 year old CPU that performs only marginally better than your current 7700K and you consider that an "upgrade path"?

 

I plan to use this box in several year's time as media server. I was hoping, and was proven right in Linus video on the i7-8700 would represent a major increase in performance. Again a reasonable assumption. There is nothing evil or malicious in my thought process. 

 

And it certainly doesn't warrant the never ending attacks. 

 

Just give up Mr Moose. Your wrong and it doesn't impact you whatsoever being right or wrong. 

 

7 hours ago, LinusTech said:

I never said they don't allow a second generation. I said they haven't done a THIRD in 10 years on consumer anyway (or anything else that I'm aware of but I don't follow everything Intel does).

 

Two generations of chips has been par for the course for some time. 

So Haswell, Haswell refresh and Broadwell on the Z97 didn't happen? 

 

anyway it doesn't matter because ultimately Coffee Lake should work on a Z270. 

 

4 hours ago, LinusTech said:

The iPhone is awesome these days, man. Don't be closed-minded.

 

As long as you're not buying like.. Windows Phone or something you're going to have a pretty great mobile experience.

Have to disagree with you on that. WP10 on the 950 and 950 XL is awesome. Far superior then IOS.

I've had every iPhone up to the 7, several samsungs, a heap of HTC's, quite a few blackberries and almost everything MS & Nokia did on WP7 through to WP10 and out of all those devices the best is the Lumia 950. (note I work in IT/Telco's so i get lots of phones, both for work, for free, and on discount). 

 

I was at a BBQ a few months ago talking to the editor at Gizmodo and just like you he was utterly unaware of how massively improved WP10 - Lumia 950 was. Like him the last time he had thought about Windows Phone was like in 2013. Its scary how many tech reviewers shat on Windows Phone when it gives a great mobile experience. 

 

And lastly its got the best reddit app, Baconit compared to the dozens of apps on the App Store and Google Store. 

[leadeater]

55 minutes ago, chugs said:

anyway it doesn't matter because ultimately Coffee Lake should work on a Z270. 

It doesn't Linus tried it and stated it does not work in his review.

 

Also Z97 is unique and in reality only had two CPU generations, Haswell refresh was a very minor modification to Haswell. It was a bit rough that Z87 did not get Broadwell because realistically it should have, not that there were in actuality Broadwell CPUs on the desktop platform. Broadwell desktop only had 2 SKUs, 5775C and 5675C, which were not targeted to gamers.

 

If you align Z87/Z97 to Z67/Z77 and Z170/Z270 the cycle is as per normal i.e. Haswell and Broadwell on both with Z97 being cut off from Skylake support. Z270 should under all reasonable analysis have been expected to have been cut off from Coffee Lake, there has never been a precedent of 3 architectures being supported on a single chipset. Again Haswell refresh is still the same architecture and Broadwell was a no show anyway.

 

All of these factors make Z97 abnormal to past and future chipsets so make it a poor example to base these judgements and analysis off of. Outliers should be excluded.

 

Quote

Haswell Refresh
Around the middle of 2014, Intel released a refresh of Haswell, simply titled Haswell Refresh. When compared to the original Haswell CPUs lineup, Haswell Refresh CPUs offer a modest increase in clock frequencies, usually of 100 MHz.[72] Haswell Refresh CPUs are supported by Intel's 9 Series chipsets (Z97 and H97, codenamed Wildcat Point), while motherboards with 8 Series chipsets (codenamed Lynx Point) usually require a BIOS update to support Haswell Refresh CPUs.[73]

 

The CPUs codenamed Devil's Canyon, covering the i5 and i7 K-series SKUs, employ a new and improved thermal interface material (TIM) called next-generation polymer thermal interface material (NGPTIM). This improved TIM reduces the CPU's operating temperatures and improves the overclocking potential, as something that had been problematic since the introduction of Ivy Bridge.[74] Other changes for the Devil's Canyon CPUs include a TDP increase to 88 W, additional decoupling capacitors to help smooth out the outputs from the fully integrated voltage regulator (FIVR), and support for the VT-d that was previously limited to non-K-series SKUs.[75] TSX was another feature brought over from the non-K-series SKUs, until August 2014 when a microcode update disabled TSX due to a bug that was discovered in its implementation.[34][35]

As you can see from above Haswell Refresh has no architecture changes, only minor power deliver changes, improved TIM, microcode changes to enable locked features and an on paper change to TDP.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, chugs said:

Have to disagree with you on that. WP10 on the 950 and 950 XL is awesome. Far superior then IOS.

I've had every iPhone up to the 7, several samsungs, a heap of HTC's, quite a few blackberries and almost everything MS & Nokia did on WP7 through to WP10 and out of all those devices the best is the Lumia 950. (note I work in IT/Telco's so i get lots of phones, both for work, for free, and on discount). 

 

I was at a BBQ a few months ago talking to the editor at Gizmodo and just like you he was utterly unaware of how massively improved WP10 - Lumia 950 was. Like him the last time he had thought about Windows Phone was like in 2013. Its scary how many tech reviewers shat on Windows Phone when it gives a great mobile experience. 

Lack of app support is still annoying but I prefer to use my Nokia 635 over my work provided iPhone. It just works better with our MS based network, O365 and Skype for Business. All I use the iPhone for is a hotspot to use work provided data and not my own.

[Drak3]

5 hours ago, LinusTech said:

As long as you're not buying like.. Windows Phone or something you're going to have a pretty great mobile experience.

Win 10 Mobile was, by far, the best mobile experience I've had. Either one of my S8s starts pushing up daisies, and I'm going back to my 950 XL.

[Jito463]

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

I'm really not sure how people got this idea in their heads that there is some law or convention that says CL had to be compatible with last gen boards.  Intel never said it would be, they haven't done it in the past for more than 2 generations of CPU, they never insinuated they would in the future.   It's like no one has been following the trends at all and are somehow surprised that they continue on the same way.   

Just curious, but are you aware of any previous chipset generation that only ran for 9 months (AMD or Intel)?  That's the part which has me scratching my head.   How they could release the 300 series so close to the launch of the 200 series, but couldn't have designed the 200 series to be compatible.  For that matter - if they knew the 300 series was going to launch that soon (and admittedly they may not have, it could have been pushed up because of Ryzen) - then there really shouldn't have even been a 200 series chipset, given that 7th gen works in the 100 series boards.

[mynameisjuan]

Why is this still an argument?

 

No matter what platform you are upgrading to you need a new mobo. Period. CL was shown to use extra unused pins that 200 series boards lack. If you cant understand than not sure what else to say.

[Dylanc1500]

6 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

Why is this still an argument?

 

No matter what platform you are upgrading to you need a new mobo. Period. CL was shown to use extra unused pins that 200 series boards lack. If you cant understand than not sure what else to say.

Some people just just need to drink some water to balance out their sodium levels.

[leadeater]

19 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

Just curious, but are you aware of any previous chipset generation that only ran for 9 months (AMD or Intel)?  That's the part which has me scratching my head.   How they could release the 300 series so close to the launch of the 200 series, but couldn't have designed the 200 series to be compatible.  For that matter - if they knew the 300 series was going to launch that soon (and admittedly they may not have, it could have been pushed up because of Ryzen) - then there really shouldn't have even been a 200 series chipset, given that 7th gen works in the 100 series boards.

Yea the biggest issue really is the timing of this. To me the problem is actually Kaby Lake or Broadwell, either KL should have been 6 cores or BW should have been a more full release with no Haswell Refresh. KL 6 cores seems unlikely given Z170 would of had to support it and market demand just wasn't there at the time of planning for that chipset.

 

Fundamentally it does make sense to introduce a core increase with the start of a new chipset cycle and then the next one be the refinement of that.

[MyName13]

I really don't understand why people consider short lifespan of kaby lake motherboards a problem, if you really wanted to upgrade from kaby lake to coffee lake then you certainly can afford a new motherboard, if you consider this a crappy move then why didn't you buy AMD's CPU instead?

[Drak3]

@Jito463 The 200 seties chipset exists namely to provide boards compatible with Kaby out of the box.

@leadeater Haswell Refresh is different than Kaby because it wasn't a massive node refinement and there was zero real architectural changes. Kaby is 14nm+ and has an HEVC hardware accelorator.

[Jito463]

56 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

The 200 seties series chipset exists namely to provide boards compatible with Kaby out of the box

Which could have been solved by shipping boards with "7th gen compatible" printed on the box, for those with the updated BIOS.

 

In truth, there were some additional changes beyond 7th gen support.  Additional PCIe lanes on the chipset for one, so it wasn't just to provide compatible boards.  I think it's more that Intel management got nervous about Ryzen eating into their sales and decided to accelerate the launch of CL well ahead of its planned launch date.  This can be evidenced by examining the complete mess that was/is the x299 launch.  Intel seems to be in knee-jerk reaction mode at the moment.

[You_are_a_cunt]

Intel doing something dickish?

Whoda thunk

[mr moose]

9 hours ago, chugs said:

1. Mr Moose said on 28/9: Maybe you were given really bad advice, but up until the rumours came out that CL was going to be on an 1151 socket everyone thought it was going to be a new socket

 

That is a clear indication you had different information. You did not say whatsoever that "no one knew". You made it clear there was information that indicated it was going to be a different socket in fact. 

 

2. I never asked for a chipset that had support beyond 2 years. I just had a very reasonable expectation based on the Z97 support three generations of products that Z270 would run Coffee Lake. Its not unreasonable and i don't get your persistence in arguing otherwise. 

 

Its not whining and its not a bad or terrible assumption. 

 

A bad assumption would have been the idea that you would have given up by now considering this issue does not impact you whatsoever. 

 

3. So with this comment you insinutated several times that I made the wrong choice buying a Z270 | i7-7700k and then go on to argue later on

 

Just in case no body has told you yet, you get the best you can afford at the time you buy, trying to future proof is futile, always was and always will be.

 

Which is what I did. I then explained to you my purpose in wanting to upgrade which you attacked and misconstrued (after doing it earlier by attacking me for wanting to upgrade my CPU straight away after getting an i7-7700k):

 

so in 2020 you want to buy a 2 year old CPU that performs only marginally better than your current 7700K and you consider that an "upgrade path"?

 

I plan to use this box in several year's time as media server. I was hoping, and was proven right in Linus video on the i7-8700 would represent a major increase in performance. Again a reasonable assumption. There is nothing evil or malicious in my thought process. 

 

And it certainly doesn't warrant the never ending attacks. 

 

Just give up Mr Moose. Your wrong and it doesn't impact you whatsoever being right or wrong. 

 

So Haswell, Haswell refresh and Broadwell on the Z97 didn't happen? 

 

anyway it doesn't matter because ultimately Coffee Lake should work on a Z270. 

 

Have to disagree with you on that. WP10 on the 950 and 950 XL is awesome. Far superior then IOS.

I've had every iPhone up to the 7, several samsungs, a heap of HTC's, quite a few blackberries and almost everything MS & Nokia did on WP7 through to WP10 and out of all those devices the best is the Lumia 950. (note I work in IT/Telco's so i get lots of phones, both for work, for free, and on discount). 

 

I was at a BBQ a few months ago talking to the editor at Gizmodo and just like you he was utterly unaware of how massively improved WP10 - Lumia 950 was. Like him the last time he had thought about Windows Phone was like in 2013. Its scary how many tech reviewers shat on Windows Phone when it gives a great mobile experience. 

 

And lastly its got the best reddit app, Baconit compared to the dozens of apps on the App Store and Google Store. 

1. I said everyone thought it was going to be a different socket because (as I have already explained numerous times)  that is the trend Intel have followed. I did not say there was definitive information about it.  What's so hard to understand.

 

2. You made an assumption it would be supported without any definitive information and against historical trend, you  have decided that that was Intel's fault.   You have even admitted you made the mistake, why do you persist in trying to make it everyone else's fault.

 

3. Because you said you wanted to buy the best motherboard specifically so you could upgrade the CPU later.  Even if CL was supported on the 200, that is not an efficient upgrade path and would have either been because someone gave you bad advice or you were banking on something hitherto unknown.

 

Again, you haven't told me what I said that was wrong.  All you have done is repeat what I have said and disagreed.   Your latest argument is that an 8700K (which will be near 3 years old when you intend to upgrade in 2020) will be worth getting for a media server over a 7700K.  I'm sorry but I don't see how that upgrade is going to give you any real world benefit.   That is far from me being wrong.

 

7 hours ago, Jito463 said:

Just curious, but are you aware of any previous chipset generation that only ran for 9 months (AMD or Intel)?  That's the part which has me scratching my head.   How they could release the 300 series so close to the launch of the 200 series, but couldn't have designed the 200 series to be compatible.  For that matter - if they knew the 300 series was going to launch that soon (and admittedly they may not have, it could have been pushed up because of Ryzen) - then there really shouldn't have even been a 200 series chipset, given that 7th gen works in the 100 series boards.

 

Not to my knowledge. This is the shortest time a platform has been current.   But the thing is, it still hasn't broken with trend and the people who are effected are still only likely to be the hardcore mix'n'match overclocker's (1% of enthusiasts) who buy the latest of everything every year anyway.  Everyone else doesn't do a CPU only upgrade and usually a whole platform upgrade every 5 years on average and 3 years at the minimum.  (my figures are from polls on this forum and from articles on PC longevity).

 

 

[chugs]

22 hours ago, mr moose said:

1. there was no implication I had different information.  I actually said no one knew.  The insinuation was that you shouldn't have made a purchase based on lack of information (or assumptions), not that there was contrary information.

 

2. NO, my claim was that Intel had never guaranteed support and that historically you don't get more than 2 years from any one platform, thus making CPU only upgrades a poor choice.

 

3. I was not saying you should have gotten something different, just that you shouldn't have banked on any of it being able to run next gen CPU's.  (this applies to AMD as much as it does to Intel).

 

I think the rest of your post is just you trying to rationalize against my points.  Because you even admitted that the issue was the assumptions you have made, not bad advice or false advertising.

 

 

 

5 hours ago, mr moose said:

1. I said everyone thought it was going to be a different socket because (as I have already explained numerous times)  that is the trend Intel have followed. I did not say there was definitive information about it.  What's so hard to understand.

 

2. You made an assumption it would be supported without any definitive information and against historical trend, you  have decided that that was Intel's fault.   You have even admitted you made the mistake, why do you persist in trying to make it everyone else's fault.

 

3. Because you said you wanted to buy the best motherboard specifically so you could upgrade the CPU later.  Even if CL was supported on the 200, that is not an efficient upgrade path and would have either been because someone gave you bad advice or you were banking on something hitherto unknown.

 

Again, you haven't told me what I said that was wrong.  All you have done is repeat what I have said and disagreed.   Your latest argument is that an 8700K (which will be near 3 years old when you intend to upgrade in 2020) will be worth getting for a media server over a 7700K.  I'm sorry but I don't see how that upgrade is going to give you any real world benefit.   That is far from me being wrong.

 

 

Not to my knowledge. This is the shortest time a platform has been current.   But the thing is, it still hasn't broken with trend and the people who are effected are still only likely to be the hardcore mix'n'match overclocker's (1% of enthusiasts) who buy the latest of everything every year anyway.  Everyone else doesn't do a CPU only upgrade and usually a whole platform upgrade every 5 years on average and 3 years at the minimum.  (my figures are from polls on this forum and from articles on PC longevity).

 

 

 

I give up. You win Mr Moose. Anyone who bought a Z270 with a hope of having the option to upgrade it with another generation CPU was stupid and ignorant. 

 

You the big man in the forums for pulverizing people with your pointless, insulting, banal and vexatious arguments. Way to go for chasing people out of Linus Tech Tips. I'm cancelling my account. I didn't realise that these forums are full of so many arrogant egotisal people who want can spend so much time arguing such esteroic issues. Best part of all this - it doesn't affect you whatsoever, you didn't buy this hardware, you don't have a vested interest in Intel ripping customers off and you certainly don't have a reason for rubbing my face in your bullsh*t - other then you hate whiners.

 

You have a terrible, toxic attitude. I pity the people who you work and live with. 

 

Good bye all. 

 

[HKZeroFive]

20 minutes ago, chugs said:

You have a terrible, toxic attitude. I pity the people who you work and live with. 

 

Good bye all. 

I thought his points were rather good and "non-toxic"... and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. If you have to resort to personal insults in the end, I'd say it's rather evident that you lost the argument anyway.

 

Don't be the guy who throws a tantrum because he wasn't able to agree with somebody. It just makes you look bad.

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, chugs said:

 

 

I give up. You win Mr Moose. Anyone who bought a Z270 with a hope of having the option to upgrade it with another generation CPU was stupid and ignorant. 

 

You the big man in the forums for pulverizing people with your pointless, insulting, banal and vexatious arguments. Way to go for chasing people out of Linus Tech Tips. I'm cancelling my account. I didn't realise that these forums are full of so many arrogant egotisal people who want can spend so much time arguing such esteroic issues. Best part of all this - it doesn't affect you whatsoever, you didn't buy this hardware, you don't have a vested interest in Intel ripping customers off and you certainly don't have a reason for rubbing my face in your bullsh*t - other then you hate whiners.

 

You have a terrible, toxic attitude. I pity the people who you work and live with. 

 

Good bye all. 

 

I'm sorry you feel that way, However discussing tech trends and how companies like Intel effect these markets is a major reason this community and many like it exist.  You will always find someone who disagrees with you regardless of where you go. Sinking to the point of name calling is not the best option and I would hope you don't treat others on this forum based on how you feel I am treating you.

 

 

P.S the two quotes of mine you made say the same thing just different ways, This indicates my reasoning/points of concern have not changed so I am not sure how to respond to that.

[Jito463]

2 hours ago, chugs said:

You have a terrible, toxic attitude. I pity the people who you work and live with. 

 

Good bye all. 

2 hours ago, HKZeroFive said:

I thought his points were rather good and "non-toxic"... and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.

While I don't really agree with @mr moose, I can't say I thought his posts were "toxic" in any manner, either.  He might have been a bit overly aggressive about making his point, but I wouldn't classify it as toxic.

 

[leadeater]

11 hours ago, Drak3 said:

@leadeater Haswell Refresh is different than Kaby because it wasn't a massive node refinement and there was zero real architectural changes. Kaby is 14nm+ and has an HEVC hardware accelorator.

Yea I just mean Haswell Refresh probably shouldn't have happened at all in favor of Broadwell getting the proper desktop treatment, it seems to have caused much more confusion than it needed to. If it had played out like that there wouldn't have been an expectation of a 3 generation support, not that I agree Z97 had that anyway.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Jito463 said:

While I don't really agree with @mr moose, I can't say I thought his posts were "toxic" in any manner, either.  He might have been a bit overly aggressive about making his point, but I wouldn't classify it as toxic.

 

I'm not above apologizing if the circumstances call for it. However if I have gotten a bit too aggressive, my defense is that I find the repeating arguments being leveled back at me do not address the points I raised.  Which makes continuing a discussion rather difficult.

[Maxxtraxx]

Has Intel ever guaranteed backward or forward compatability for coming generations of processor releases with older hardware and vice versa?

I'm not aware they have, so assuming and "requiring" Intel to do so based on historical trends is very misguided. That is to say that this(see below) is spot on:

On 10/6/2017 at 8:05 AM, leadeater said:

If you align Z87/Z97 to Z67/Z77 and Z170/Z270 the cycle is as per normal i.e. Haswell and Broadwell on both with Z97 being cut off from Skylake support. Z270 should under all reasonable analysis have been expected to have been cut off from Coffee Lake, there has never been a precedent of 3 architectures being supported on a single chipset. Again Haswell refresh is still the same architecture and Broadwell was a no show anyway.

 

There actually are apparent and significant pin usage changes for power supply and more? in the socket design despite being on the same socket pin layout.

Everyone can complain all they want, Intel made a decision for reasons that are in all likelihood multiple in number and greater in scope than anyone outside their engineering team team, finance team and company leadership will ever know. To label them entirely anti-consumer due to a personally uninformed judgement/guess about those reasons is juvenile.

 

Intel has market dominance for a variety of reasons, some of them being shady business practices, many of them being that they have the best product on the market and have had as such for the last decade or so and their product quality speaks for itself. From my experience Intel puts a great amount of hard work into their products and like... Nvidia when their products launch, for the most part... it all tends to just work very well directly at launch.

 

IMO with AMD... it rarely seems to feel that way... it almost seems as though their new products tend to still be in beta at launch, Examples: Ryzen's memory headaches at launch, Motherboards with bios problems, getting NVME raid support long after launch, Vega launching with broken drivers and overclocking utilites and many features being completely unimplemented until months after launch.

 

These are my thoughts on the subject

[pas008]

I dont understand this bitching about compatibility for sockets

z77 and ivy released just like z270 and kaby,

 

and fact if they can use the same socket but tweak it move shit around to gain performance but lose compatibility big deal

its still a jump forward

cant move forward if you are always looking back

 

I'm not sure about am4 socket and r7 and if they have extra unused pins, but they can be limiting themselves on performance tweaks by working for backwards compatibility, which means they are going forward but always stuck looking in rear view mirror

 

lets just say (just an rough example) an amd engineer found a way to get a stack of hbm on ryzen to never have any ties to system memory, but cant because they need to make it backwards compatible and not enough pins/etc on am4 and they promised compatibility, now we have to wait til 2020

[mr moose]

9 hours ago, Maxxtraxx said:

snip

 

8 hours ago, pas008 said:

and fact if they can use the same socket but tweak it move shit around to gain performance but lose compatibility big deal

its still a jump forward

cant move forward if you are always looking back

 

 

I think the issue is people really don't understand the difference between re-using the physical socket and literally everything else that relates to a CPU.    It really is a shame that such basics have been forgotten to this degree on a tech forum.