Police of Berlin is inquiring the cell phone data of all Berliners every 11 days

[CPTSulu]

This is a bit older but I thought it would be interesting for you guys here.
So last year the police of the german capital Berlin was inquiring the cell phone data of every inhabitant of the city 32 times a year or every 11 Days. This was made public by the center-left government of the city which wanted to show the public some statistics for more transperency. The privacy advocators at the website of netzpolitik.org summarized the government report in a more readable way and found out that the technology is mostly used for "smaller" crimes like theft and robbery.

I personally think this is a big step forward in transperancy of surveillance technologies but also shows us to what extend governments/polices use these on innocent people. Because while looking for one or a group of persons they inquire the cell phone data of tens of thousands of people.

So what do you think about this?


Source(translate): https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fnetzpolitik.org%2F2017%2Ffunkzellenabfrage-letztes-jahr-landeten-handy-daten-aller-berliner-alle-elf-tage-bei-der-polizei%2F

Source: https://netzpolitik.org/2017/funkzellenabfrage-letztes-jahr-landeten-handy-daten-aller-berliner-alle-elf-tage-bei-der-polizei/

[Okjoek]

Security vs Privacy is such a tricky thing to balance especially as political establishments of the status quo are challenged by ever-growing polarized radical movements from those who want little-no government influence to those who want most-total government control.

[SCHISCHKA]

It will only drive up the cost of weed as every dealer will need a new phone every 11 days

[GER_T4IGA]

7 minutes ago, Okjoek said:

Security vs Privacy is such a tricky thing to balance especially as political establishments of the status quo are challenged by ever-growing polarized radical movements from those who want little-no government influence to those who want most-total government control.

Governments seem to have a hard time scientifically proving that their security acctually does shit.
As long as that isn't happening we will call out privacy invading bullshit. Just look at what happened in Hambrug at G20: Cards burning an overhead view like straight out of a war zone ... where was 'security' there?

[ravenshrike]

The Stasi wished they had this sort of capability.

[bowrilla]

Well – story is a bit more complex as the article shows. You have to bear in mind that there are way more mobile devices logged in at a certain place (especially in a capital like Berlin) than people living there. Last year 12.7 million people visited Berlin – official visits. So people coming here for a business meeting being in transit or staying at a friends place (or illegal AirBnB) are not included. Berlin has a population of ~3.47 million people.

Cell phone information are being collected in certain areas when police is investigating crimes in that area. It's a different picture imho.

 

And I do like the plan to send SMS to affected mobile users when their data is being collected as part of an investigation – as it is required by law. 

[Okjoek]

4 minutes ago, GER_T4IGA said:

Governments seem to have a hard time scientifically proving that their security acctually does shit.
As long as that isn't happening we will call out privacy invading bullshit. Just look at what happened in Hambrug at G20: Cards burning an overhead view like straight out of a war zone ... where was 'security' there?

Aye, this is only my opinion, but I think Germany is quite a mess these days. I don't normally side with nationalists, but I don't think Western Europe should have taken in all those refugees, I believe any religion that preaches anyone who doesn't follow it should be killed or enslaved. My culture is very Catholic, but we stopped going to church many years ago. I didn't get my head cut off for it. This isn't 800AD or some shit. And again this is just another opinion of mine, but I feel some sympathy for people like the G20 protestors for being very angry even if I dislike the way they show it. They've got a lot of the same problems as here in the USA I think where the representatives are all just the hand of corporate interest that are incapable of dealing with constantly growing inequality.

[CPTSulu]

11 minutes ago, Okjoek said:

Aye, this is only my opinion, but I think Germany is quite a mess these days. I don't normally side with nationalists, but I don't think Western Europe should have taken in all those refugees, I believe any religion that preaches anyone who doesn't follow it should be killed or enslaved. My culture is very Catholic, but we stopped going to church many years ago. I didn't get my head cut off for it. This isn't 800AD or some shit. And again this is just another opinion of mine, but I feel some sympathy for people like the G20 protestors for being very angry even if I dislike the way they show it. They've got a lot of the same problems as here in the USA I think where the representatives are all just the hand of corporate interest that are incapable of dealing with constantly growing inequality.

The protesters at G20 werent Nationalists. They were the opposite

[Okjoek]

Just now, CPTSulu said:

The protesters at G20 werent Nationalists. They were the opposite

I was referring to the refugee topic with that claim. I realize the G20 protestors were mostly anti-nationalist, but very socialist. Atleast I think that's how it is if I've observed correctly. I just see cases where I feel both of those groups have good grievances.

[suicidalfranco]

is this to find terrorists are people who talk ill about the religion of peace?

[mr moose]

9 hours ago, GER_T4IGA said:

Governments seem to have a hard time scientifically proving that their security acctually does shit.
 

Oh, they can do that to a point. Police in many countries cannot arrest someone for a crime unless they commit the crime, so when you hear about people being arrested because they were "intending" to a  commit a crime, you can bet your arse the police have a txt message or phone record that serves as evidence.  But there are two problems, 1. is everyone has a different idea on what constitutes sufficient effectiveness to justify the action.  For many people stopping one or two crimes is not sufficient enough to justify looking through phone records,  while to others it is.   And 2. is that in some cases, showing how they are stopping the crime and where the data is being collected will undermine its effectiveness and effectively tip off current and future suspects.  

 

regardless which side of this discussion people sit on, most of the arguments come back to opinions as we mere plebs do not have inside information.

 

 

 

 

 

[Teddy07]

My opinion as a German is that my country becomes more and more of a shit show:

- mainstream media is spewing propaganda just like in the US. Real journalism barely takes place

- the UN demand a written answer on our latest anti free speech law to combat "hate speech"

- criminality rises fast and our prisons are overcrowded due to that fact

- Antifa is huge here in Germany, seen latest at the G20 summit. Did our politicians distance themselves from these protestors? Of course not. They instead talked about police brutality

....

 

Germany looks internationally probably great because barely any media reports about the real issues.

[Teddy07]

8 hours ago, Okjoek said:

I was referring to the refugee topic with that claim. I realize the G20 protestors were mostly anti-nationalist, but very socialist. Atleast I think that's how it is if I've observed correctly. I just see cases where I feel both of those groups have good grievances.

They just threaten everyone and smash things that they don't agree with. It is important for store owners to never invite controversial people because it doesn't matter if you are a leftist or not. You invite them, then you will be their target. For example, a small Jewish bookstore in Berlin recently invited a right wing guy for a discussion. The bookstore will now close in August because they received threats for a few month now and have lost many customers. (I can provide a German source if you don't believe me)

 

I personally shut my mouth at my university, because I am a conservative and the universities are very liberal. At least I don't study some lefties subject so I usually don't have to deal with this crap.

[jaggysnake57]

 

19 hours ago, GER_T4IGA said:

Governments seem to have a hard time scientifically proving that their security acctually does shit.
 

they dont at all....they cant show it because they would have to  show how they do it. once people know how they know how to avoid it.

19 hours ago, Okjoek said:

Aye, this is only my opinion, but I think Germany is quite a mess these days. I don't normally side with nationalists, but I don't think Western Europe should have taken in all those refugees, I believe any religion that preaches anyone who doesn't follow it should be killed or enslaved. My culture is very Catholic, but we stopped going to church many years ago. I didn't get my head cut off for it. This isn't 800AD or some shit. And again this is just another opinion of mine, but I feel some sympathy for people like the G20 protestors for being very angry even if I dislike the way they show it. They've got a lot of the same problems as here in the USA I think where the representatives are all just the hand of corporate interest that are incapable of dealing with constantly growing inequality.

what a load of ignorant crap.  for one its well documented that refugees are less likely to commit crime more likely to get work,  more likely to start there own business. and as for your opinions on islam.......if islam was a violent religion hell bent on taking over the world then it would have already.....nearly a billion people follow islam.....they would steam roll the world......i suggest that instead of perpetuating the ignorant rhetoric of the far right you read some factual sources.

 

we live in a world that needs surveillance. its that simple. i ask any person to give a reason why surveillance is so bad with out "derp 1984" or "derp muh privacy"

[SSL]

6 hours ago, jaggysnake57 said:

i ask any person to give a reason why surveillance is so bad with out "derp 1984" or "derp muh privacy"

 

Then you've basically dismissed the entire counter-argument by rejecting any reason based on the exact antithesis of surveillance. Any argument against surveillance must be grounded in the philosophical and functional benefits of privacy. Rejecting it out of hand suggests you are either not arguing in good faith, or have a very weak understanding of both sides of the discussion.

 

Perhaps you could take some time to understand why 1984 is frequently referenced in discussions about privacy and government surveillance by actually reading it. Read Brave New World while you're at it. Brave New World is certainly a bit more relevant to the direction that most Western governments have taken over the past century. This would also be a good starting place in understanding the functional benefits of privacy, and the specific risks that come from government infringement upon it. I can also recommend the books by Bruce Schneier, particularly Data and Goliath.

[spwath]

i thought Berlin was West German controlled?

[SCHISCHKA]

11 hours ago, jaggysnake57 said:

 for one its well documented that refugees are less likely to commit crime more likely to get work

Let me start by saying I'm not a refugee hater; I want to see a quality service provided to avoid what my European migrant friends tell me. To do this you need to look at real numbers and have realistic quotas, not Merkels stupid comments that caused thousands to drown or die or get sold into sex slavery.

My government concluded a 10 year study on refugees. 47% are still dependant on state housing, that is they cannot pay market rent, and 51% are dependent on state welfare. 51% on benefits is not what I would describe as "more likely to get work". It is important to be aware that not all unemployed people receive a benefit, some get booted off, as the current right leaning government re-worked the entire benefit system.

In Europe the situation is different as their socialist governments actually give jobs to refugees. These are not real productive jobs that are beneficial to their economy, they are just state dependency in disguise. Fortunately my government does not hand out state jobs like candy and expect the self-employed to fund it.

It is simply not realistic to expect people with no literacy, qualifications, or spoken language fluency to be more likely to gain decent employment. What is realistic is exploitation, state dependency, and the areas they live in turning into ghettos. If you do not pay attention to the numbers and run on emotions your civilisation will turn to shit.

here is a 5 year study from my government that is a study of shorter term and covered the year before the GFC. NZ did not get hit as hard as other countries in the GFC but we did loose jobs from a FTA with China. At no time is workforce participation over 50%. The situation is you need to provide translation services and education to these people, if you approve too many refugees you will not be able to provide these services.

 

The statistics we do have is that a lot of refugees have mental disorders and PTSD which can lead to much different crimes than locals. They never report crime by refugees for obvious reasons. In NZ we cannot use prison stats as prison is where asylum seekers are sent during processing. We just get the headlines like the African couple that were jailed for torturing their kid because they thought she was possessed, or the guy from a country with a known child rape problem that raped a random child in a public swimming pool because of a "sexual emergency". I would not be surprised if crimes by locals were higher as we do have a culture that likes to binge drink and have domestic disputes in public, but the crimes are different, as in not introduced by foreign influence, and locals do report crimes more than immigrants.

11 hours ago, jaggysnake57 said:

i ask any person to give a reason why surveillance is so bad with out "derp 1984" or "derp muh privacy"

Because it can be abused. There is no way to trust the people performing the spying. There is also government data leaks, Sweden just had a really big data leak, NZ has had several over the years. We recently had a police officer convicted for tormenting a member of the public. For something like 2.5 years he was stalking and harassing this guy. He was a real nutcase. Would have been worse if he had access to spy resources. I do not want my government spying on me because I think there is some dickhead out there that will abuse it.

 

 

 

[jaggysnake57]

On 28/07/2017 at 9:43 PM, SCHISCHKA said:

Let me start by saying I'm not a refugee hater; I want to see a quality service provided to avoid what my European migrant friends tell me. To do this you need to look at real numbers and have realistic quotas, not Merkels stupid comments that caused thousands to drown or die or get sold into sex slavery.

On 28/07/2017 at 9:43 PM, SCHISCHKA said:

My government concluded a 10 year study on refugees. 47% are still dependant on state housing, that is they cannot pay market rent, and 51% are dependent on state welfare. 51% on benefits is not what I would describe as "more likely to get work". It is important to be aware that not all unemployed people receive a benefit, some get booted off, as the current right leaning government re-worked the entire benefit system.

ok so you basically misrepresent the facts.  33% of those refugees looked at left NZ, and another 11% are planning to leave. that 47% is of those who do not own there own home. take out the 16% that do and children then......

 

your figures about benefits are correct bu then

On 28/07/2017 at 9:43 PM, SCHISCHKA said:

In Europe the situation is different as their socialist governments actually give jobs to refugees.

if your not going to help them into work then how do you expect them to contribute

On 28/07/2017 at 9:43 PM, SCHISCHKA said:

These are not real productive jobs that are beneficial to their economy, they are just state dependency in disguise. Fortunately my government does not hand out state jobs like candy and expect the self-employed to fund it.

this simply isnt true 

On 28/07/2017 at 9:43 PM, SCHISCHKA said:

It is simply not realistic to expect people with no literacy, qualifications, or spoken language fluency to be more likely to gain decent employment. What is realistic is exploitation, state dependency, and the areas they live in turning into ghettos. If you do not pay attention to the numbers and run on emotions your civilisation will turn to shit.

here is a 5 year study from my government that is a study of shorter term and covered the year before the GFC. NZ did not get hit as hard as other countries in the GFC but we did loose jobs from a FTA with China. At no time is workforce participation over 50%. The situation is you need to provide translation services and education to these people, if you approve too many refugees you will not be able to provide these services.

 

The statistics we do have is that a lot of refugees have mental disorders and PTSD which can lead to much different crimes than locals. They never report crime by refugees for obvious reasons. In NZ we cannot use prison stats as prison is where asylum seekers are sent during processing. We just get the headlines like the African couple that were jailed for torturing their kid because they thought she was possessed, or the guy from a country with a known child rape problem that raped a random child in a public swimming pool because of a "sexual emergency". I would not be surprised if crimes by locals were higher as we do have a culture that likes to binge drink and have domestic disputes in public, but the crimes are different, as in not introduced by foreign influence, and locals do report crimes more than immigrants.

 

again watch the video......read the IMF report or any of the countless reports that completely disprove all you have just said for the majority of the western world. heres a thought if everyone else is doing ok and NZ isnt maybe its a problem with NZ........just a thought

 

On 28/07/2017 at 9:43 PM, SCHISCHKA said:

Because it can be abused. There is no way to trust the people performing the spying. There is also government data leaks, Sweden just had a really big data leak, NZ has had several over the years. We recently had a police officer convicted for tormenting a member of the public. For something like 2.5 years he was stalking and harassing this guy. He was a real nutcase. Would have been worse if he had access to spy resources. I do not want my government spying on me because I think there is some dickhead out there that will abuse it.

so leaks and dodgy MPs is enough to say to hell with catching criminals and preventing terrorist atrocities "muh privacy"

[rn8686]

15 minutes ago, jaggysnake57 said:

so leaks and dodgy MPs is enough to say to hell with catching criminals and preventing terrorist atrocities "muh privacy"

Except there is very little evidence that it actually stops terrorists, the only known plot which was stopped was an American taxi driver donating 8,500$ to al-Shabab, hardly worth all the money spent. Not only that but it weakens security, just look what what happened with Eternal blue and Wannacry. 

[SCHISCHKA]

46 minutes ago, jaggysnake57 said:

ok so you basically misrepresent the facts.  33% of those refugees looked at left NZ, and another 11% are planning to leave. that 47% is of those who do not own there own home. take out the 16% that do and children then......

 

I think you have misread the facts.

Living in a state house implies you are a long term beneficiary or disabled, basically people who cannot work and are fully dependent on the state for everything. 

If you have a job then there is no way you will be eligible for a state house as the waiting list is long and full of people more needy.

This is what I mean when I say 47% cannot pay market rent and 51% have a welfare cheque as their income.

It has nothing to do with home ownership.

So it looks like the 33% useful ones who could contribute back to society leave and the useless stay.

That does not leave much who are employed does it?

If you ever worked in NZ you would have observed this.

46 minutes ago, jaggysnake57 said:

if your not going to help them into work then how do you expect them to contribute

like i said be realistic about the quantity you bring in and the service you can provide. It is not good to flood the job market with lots of people with the same disadvantages. There are only so many jobs they will be suitable for.

46 minutes ago, jaggysnake57 said:

this simply isnt true 

oh that video is too full of bullshit. the west had a post-war baby boom and our population growth is just levelling off. It is a natural adjustment. There have never been more Europeans than ever and the population is ageing because economics are forcing people to have babies later and people are living longer. My parents had half the children their parents had because that is what they could afford, there was a recession in the 80s when my parents stopped having children. People on benefits have more than 5 kids because they do not have any limiting factors than a couple with jobs would have.

This is a scam they put forward because they like their cheap malaysian nurses in resthomes. We have had 500k people migrate in the last decade into a country of only 4mill. We have experienced mass immigration and population replacement tenfold what europe has seen. We have seen the results, the truths, and the bullshit.

46 minutes ago, jaggysnake57 said:

again watch the video......read the IMF report or any of the countless reports that completely disprove all you have just said for the majority of the western world. heres a thought if everyone else is doing ok and NZ isnt maybe its a problem with NZ........just a thought

I provided you with reports. You have not provided me with any reports just a propaganda video. Mine came from official government source. Please provide these IMF reports for me.

46 minutes ago, jaggysnake57 said:

so leaks and dodgy MPs is enough to say to hell with catching criminals and preventing terrorist atrocities "muh privacy"

I don't think you really take the stalking cop example seriously. What criminal has been caught from collecting everyone's metadata? If you are a dodgy person then the cops can ask the courts to listen to your phone calls and read your text messages, but they do not need to record my stuff! What if I piss off the local cop and he runs my business into the ground? It took two years to take down this cop who was ruining a mans life.

 

 

[MadyTehWolfie]

On 7/27/2017 at 6:45 PM, Teddy07 said:

They just threaten everyone and smash things that they don't agree with. It is important for store owners to never invite controversial people because it doesn't matter if you are a leftist or not. You invite them, then you will be their target. For example, a small Jewish bookstore in Berlin recently invited a right wing guy for a discussion. The bookstore will now close in August because they received threats for a few month now and have lost many customers. (I can provide a German source if you don't believe me)

 

I personally shut my mouth at my university, because I am a conservative and the universities are very liberal. At least I don't study some lefties subject so I usually don't have to deal with this crap.

Antifa = communist larpers/terrorist group

[MadyTehWolfie]

On 7/28/2017 at 4:50 AM, jaggysnake57 said:

 

they dont at all....they cant show it because they would have to  show how they do it. once people know how they know how to avoid it.

what a load of ignorant crap.  for one its well documented that refugees are less likely to commit crime more likely to get work,  more likely to start there own business. and as for your opinions on islam.......if islam was a violent religion hell bent on taking over the world then it would have already.....nearly a billion people follow islam.....they would steam roll the world......i suggest that instead of perpetuating the ignorant rhetoric of the far right you read some factual sources.

 

we live in a world that needs surveillance. its that simple. i ask any person to give a reason why surveillance is so bad with out "derp 1984" or "derp muh privacy"

There's more then one way to skin a cat. You don't need to dominate the world through killing. You can simply move to other places and out breed the current population to subvert their culture. An that's exactly what's happening in Europe. Also no majority of refugees do not start businesses or find jobs. They do commit a shit ton of crime. Where there is poverty there is crime. Just one of the reasons I'm happy we have Trump to keep these refugees out of the USA hopefully for good. You can have them along with Antifa.

[jaggysnake57]

1 hour ago, SCHISCHKA said:

snip

 

https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/Staff-Discussion-Notes/Issues/2016/12/31/The-Refugee-Surge-in-Europe-Economic-Challenges-43609

thats the imf report and if you view that video on you tubes site in the description there are links to all the sources

 

i like how in the same post you say governments cant be trusted then cite a government report

21 minutes ago, MadyTehWolfie said:

There's more then one way to skin a cat. You don't need to dominate the world through killing. You can simply move to other places and out breed the current population to subvert their culture. An that's exactly what's happening in Europe. Also no majority of refugees do not start businesses or find jobs. They do commit a shit ton of crime. Where there is poverty there is crime. Just one of the reasons I'm happy we have Trump to keep these refugees out of the USA hopefully for good. You can have them along with Antifa.

see the video i posted above and evidence for your claims?

[jaggysnake57]

2 hours ago, rn8686 said:

Except there is very little evidence that it actually stops terrorists, the only known plot which was stopped was an American taxi driver donating 8,500$ to al-Shabab, hardly worth all the money spent. Not only that but it weakens security, just look what what happened with Eternal blue and Wannacry. 

sorry for the double post but

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-westminster-attack-michael-fallon-terror-threat-islamist-lone-wolf-low-tech-car-truck-vehicle-a7645221.html

thats just the uk and just the ones they will talk about.....the recent attacks were committed by people know to services but due to cuts and other issues they were not stopped.

[MadyTehWolfie]

14 minutes ago, jaggysnake57 said:

https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/Staff-Discussion-Notes/Issues/2016/12/31/The-Refugee-Surge-in-Europe-Economic-Challenges-43609

thats the imf report and if you view that video on you tubes site in the description there are links to all the sources

 

i like how in the same post you say governments cant be trusted then cite a government report

see the video i posted above and evidence for your claims?

Says they may integrate in the future however it does not refute that they are in poverty and causing crimes right now. Not only that but all you had to do to see my claim is true is turn on the news. What happened in Germany with the massive gang rape was just one example.