Smoking Barrels - LTT's Unnofficial Gun Club!

[Drak3]

2 hours ago, Real_PhillBert said:

Psst. That's every single ND ever... 

 

If you're going to be stupid and have poor trigger discipline, no mechanical safety is going to save you. 

What I'm talking about is purely mechanical failure.

 

My father's P5 has been rebuilt because it had a tendency to fire 2 to 3 times per trigger pull, being cocked, or being moved rapidly back and forth (the same way you'd draw a gun from a holster). It was malfunctional.

We also have a .22 Luger "replica" that has a malfunctional safety. It's either safe, or it's not, regardless of the selector's position: safe, fire, or digging into your hand. At least with a grip safety, I could handle it with a reduced risk of it discharging like the P5. It's not in good condition, unlike the P5, it's also not worth repairing.

 

And when it comes to trigger "safeties," my father has issues shooting it consistantly. I don't. But, I also had the M&P 9 dry fire without interacting with the "safety," and I've replicated it with multiple Glocks of various generation and caliber, and some HK models, when I was shopping around for my first pistol. I don't have any confidence in those guns for any type of carry. To me, they are and always will be, range guns.

[Real_PhillBert]

44 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

What I'm talking about is purely mechanical failure.

 

My father's P5 has been rebuilt because it had a tendency to fire 2 to 3 times per trigger pull, being cocked, or being moved rapidly back and forth (the same way you'd draw a gun from a holster). It was malfunctional.

We also have a .22 Luger "replica" that has a malfunctional safety. It's either safe, or it's not, regardless of the selector's position: safe, fire, or digging into your hand. At least with a grip safety, I could handle it with a reduced risk of it discharging like the P5. It's not in good condition, unlike the P5, it's also not worth repairing.

 

And when it comes to trigger "safeties," my father has issues shooting it consistantly. I don't. But, I also had the M&P 9 dry fire without interacting with the "safety," and I've replicated it with multiple Glocks of various generation and caliber, and some HK models, when I was shopping around for my first pistol. I don't have any confidence in those guns for any type of carry. To me, they are and always will be, range guns.

Umm.. What? 

 

Please go on to explain more detail on the bolded part. 

[Drak3]

Just now, Real_PhillBert said:

Umm.. What? 

 

Please go on to explain more detail on the bolded part. 

I pull the trigger, it dry fires. It would shoot if a round was chambered.

 

Doesn't matter where on the trigger I actually pull, and for me, the difference in force between disengaging the "safety" and not is not experienced. For my father, it just comes off as an inconsistant trigger. Neither one of us pull the triggers particularly hard, just fast.

That 1/16th inch or so of plastic isn't sufficient to actually stop that much force.

The bottom half of the trigger does not always reset to zero.

And the design of the triggers themselves do fuck all to stop the trigger from being pulled if anything gets in there. Putting any force on the pivot itself is enough to actuate the trigger, and every trigger I've seen curves to guide force right around the middle of the trigger, where the pivot is.

 

So, I consider a trigger "safety" to be as good, or worse, than no safety.

[Real_PhillBert]

7 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

I pull the trigger, it dry fires. It would shoot if a round was chambered.

 

Doesn't matter where on the trigger I actually pull, and for me, the difference in force between disengaging the "safety" and not is not experienced. For my father, it just comes off as an inconsistant trigger. Neither one of us pull the triggers particularly hard, just fast.

That 1/16th inch or so of plastic isn't sufficient to actually stop that much force.

The bottom half of the trigger does not always reset to zero.

And the design of the triggers themselves do fuck all to stop the trigger from being pulled if anything gets in there. Putting any force on the pivot itself is enough to actuate the trigger, and every trigger I've seen curves to guide force right around the middle of the trigger, where the pivot is.

 

So, I consider a trigger "safety" to be as good, or worse, than no safety.

The only way what you are saying is possible is if you physically broke the trigger safety or the frame of the pistol.

[Drak3]

Just now, Real_PhillBert said:

The only way what you are saying is possible is if you physically broke the trigger safety or the frame of the pistol.

No, it's very possible without damaging the firearm.

[Real_PhillBert]

4 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

No, it's very possible without damaging the firearm.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, no...

 

 

Here's as good of a shot of my slightly linty G19 (admittedly with an aftermarket trigger, but the factory trigger works in the same fashion), The red safety can be seen protruding behind the trigger face, between the trigger and the frame, this has to move upward, flush with the black trigger in order for the trigger to move. I cannot move the trigger without pressing down on the red safety, even if I use my opposite hand to apply as much pressure as I can. 

 

In order for the trigger to move without that red safety being depressed, either the safety must physically break, or the frame where it contacts has to physically break. There is no in between on this one. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, RollTime said:

Fair point. Let me revise that as "recent events involving weapons". 

Is:

“can the news play a happy story for once”

 

a fair statement within community standards? 

 

Regards to double trigger safeties, I have an airsoft mp7 with a double trigger and never found it to be a problem. I don’t recall any other double trigger instances but for me I naturally depress it when I shoot. 

Not really a gun per say but it’s not too far fetched. 

[Drak3]

@Real_PhillBert

My M&P 9 trigger.

No damage. The bottom half doesn't stop the trigger from moving backwards. It makes the trigger pull a little stiff, but about as mush as going from my M&P15 to my Bushmaster AR.

Pressing right on the pivot disengages the safety.

The curvature of both your glock and my M&P's triggers guide anything in the guard to the safety.

 

And this is all replicated in every gun I've handled with this style of "safety."

[Real_PhillBert]

6 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

@Real_PhillBert

My M&P 9 trigger.

*SNIP*

No damage. The bottom half doesn't stop the trigger from moving backwards. It makes the trigger pull a little stiff, but about as mush as going from my M&P15 to my Bushmaster AR.

In your pic you can see the safety stop protruding below the trigger. Just like in the Glock that has to move vertically flush with the trigger to get past the frame. The way to get that safety stop to move vertically is to press the pivoting safety. Again, just like the Glock, without that being flush with the bottom of the trigger, the trigger cannot be pressed to the rear.

9 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Pressing right on the pivot disengages the safety.

The curvature of both your glock and my M&P's triggers guide anything in the guard to the safety.

 

And this is all replicated in every gun I've handled with this style of "safety."

Are you trying to say that if you depress the trigger safety and pull the trigger the gun will go off? Yes... That's kinda the idea. Keep your fingers off the trigger if you dont want it to shoot. 

[Trik'Stari]

6 hours ago, Drak3 said:

Ballistics gel testing is very valuable, but it's not the be all, end all. .45 ACP has a phenominal military track record.

 

Realistically, having more ammo with a pistol isn't overly benefitial if you're a half decent shot.

 

And the .45 I've shot is a mil spec 1911 with an aftermarket muzzle brake.

The 9mm pistols I've shot are:

Walther P5

Walther P38

S&W M&P9 Pro series

 

None of the 9mm pistols have muzzle brakes, only one could have one, and only with a barrel swap.

If it doesn't have a grip safety and it isn't single action, I wouldn't conceal carry it, or open carry.

 

Which basically means I can choose between the 1911 and early variations of the Luger design. The latter is extremely hard to find and I'm not spending 10K on a pistol.

Carrying with single action only is honestly a terrible idea. You're either going to miss, or more likely you're going to get shot because the other person had a quicker action. You can get single/double hammer fired guns with safeties, like a CZ, that are just fine.

 

Also, might want to see if your 1911 has the thing in it that prevents drop firing. A lot of them don't.

 

I do share your dislike of Glocks.

[knightslugger]

 

I would be thrilled if every one of my firearms had no mechanical safety, passive or otherwise.

[RollTime]

4 hours ago, Drak3 said:

I have nothing positive to say about those people

Well, regardless of my views on the issue, I am glad they showed theirs. It's good to see people doing their civic duty, even if you don't agree with them.

[Drak3]

37 minutes ago, Real_PhillBert said:

In your pic you can see the safety stop protruding below the trigger. Just like in the Glock that has to move vertically flush with the trigger to get past the frame. The way to get that safety stop to move vertically is to press the pivoting safety. Again, just like the Glock, without that being flush with the bottom of the trigger, the trigger cannot be pressed to the rear.

In theory. In reality, it takes no more than an extra 1/2lb to pull that trigger.

 

38 minutes ago, Real_PhillBert said:

Are you trying to say that if you depress the trigger safety and pull the trigger the gun will go off? Yes... That's kinda the idea. Keep your fingers off the trigger if you dont want it to shoot. 

I'm actuating it at a point that it shouldn't be able to be actuated from, in an ideal world. And I refer you back to my short yarn about a malfunctional P5.

 

30 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

Carrying with single action only is honestly a terrible idea. You're either going to miss, or more likely you're going to get shot because the other person had a quicker action. You can get single/double hammer fired guns with safeties, like a CZ, that are just fine.

I can draw and cock a 1911 in a fluid motion. Claw grip over the top, pull the hammer back as you form a grip. Easy peezy two years of practice squeezy.

 

32 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

 

Also, might want to see if your 1911 has the thing in it that prevents drop firing. A lot of them don't.

It does. First thing I do after buying any gun is rip it apart and see what the hell I bought.

 

34 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

I do share your dislike of Glocks.

I actually like glocks. Alot. I just wouldn't trust one as a carry gun. I get a little sad every now and then that I don't have one, but then I remember how expensive the ones I want are.

 

25 minutes ago, knightslugger said:

I would be thrilled if every one of my firearms had no mechanical safety, passive or otherwise.

Glad we're several states apart.

 

18 minutes ago, RollTime said:

Well, regardless of my views on the issue, I am glad they showed theirs. It's good to see people doing their civic duty, even if you don't agree with them.

All I see is a bunch of anti gunners skipping work and school to push an agenda and ignore huge aspects of why what happened, happened, that would actually help the state of things.

[TheSLSAMG]

15 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

All I see is a bunch of anti gunners skipping work and school to push an agenda and ignore huge aspects of why what happened, happened, that would actually help the state of things.

Honestly, I'd be hard pressed to think most of those students are actually anti-gunners. I remember being in high school, any excuse to get out of the classroom was an excuse I was willing to take. Hell, there was a week of bomb and gun threats that caused us to be outside on multiple occasions. It was bliss. (referring to the walkouts)

[RollTime]

15 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

All I see is a bunch of anti gunners skipping work and school to push an agenda and ignore huge aspects of why what happened, happened, that would actually help the state of things

Well, first of all, the March was on a Saturday. If you're referring to the walkout, fair enough on the skipping school point.

I'm legitimately curious- what's your take on Parkland? I'd love to hear it form another perspective than those I'm surrounded by.

[Drak3]

Just now, RollTime said:

Well, first of all, the March was on a Saturday. If you're referring to the walkout, fair enough on the skipping school point.

I'm legitimately curious- what's your take on Parkland? I'd love to hear it form another perspective than those I'm surrounded by.

Everyone authorized to stop this from happening from the beginning, from the feds down to the local police forces, didn't. Those people deserve severe punishment. The local police also stood idly by as the shooting went on.

We also need to revise our mental health system and the stigma surrounding mental health.

[RollTime]

15 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Everyone authorized to stop this from happening from the beginning, from the feds down to the local police forces, didn't. Those people deserve severe punishment. The local police also stood idly by as the shooting went on.

We also need to revise our mental health system and the stigma surrounding mental health.

How exactly would you revise the system?

[Drak3]

Just now, RollTime said:

How exactly would you revise the system?

Start by disallowing every little thing be handled by drugs. Health, especially mental health, is not a one size fits all ordeal. Proper psychiatry is an underused tool, and many stresses are a result of how American society has built itself in the past few decades.

Incentivize schools to bring on more pyschiatrists and potentially, therapists. Reduce stress by heavily reducing, or removing, homework in middle and high school. Bring in more teachers so that students have more access to their help.

Reduce taxes by cutting the pay of 'representatives,' reducing unnecessary military activity, repealing Obamacare. Move for government offered alternatives to things like health insurance, internet, where current infrastructure can support it. Reducing the cost of being a citizen will help ease stress across the board.

[knightslugger]

1 hour ago, Drak3 said:

The local police also stood idly by as the shooting went on.

The Supreme court rules back in June of (2004?) that law enforcement has no duty to protect. you should look it up.

[Drak3]

Just now, knightslugger said:

The Supreme court rules back in June of (2004?) that law enforcement has no duty to protect. you should look it up.

Ah, so the police are truly fucking useless then.

[knightslugger]

2 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Ah, so the police are truly fucking useless then.

glorified paralegals and professional witnesses, nothing more.

[Drak3]

Just now, knightslugger said:

glorified paralegals and witnesses, nothing more.

They deserve to rot at this point.

[knightslugger]

well i guess if we're going full retard on politics...

 

It should have been called "March Full of Lies". These children have no idea what life is like as an adult. None whatsoever. They have been protected by their parents for the first 18 years of their lives. As an adult YOU are now responsible for your own protection. The bill of rights guarantees it, and the 2nd amendment strips the power of the government to take means of self defense away from you. THAT'S WHAT IT'S FOR! Why is that so hard to understand for these people? You are responsible for your own defense. Why people don't carry more (or more often), baffles me. One punch is all it takes to end one's life. We've seen it done in "polar Bear Challenges" before. Some don't NEED a tool to take a life. Personally, i couldn't throw a punch if my life was in the balance. That's why I carry. It is my threat equalizer.

 

Moreover... it's funded by left ideologues. Tell me... If this "march" was spontaneous... how did hundreds of thousands of children get to Washington DC? They take a bus? Get their parents to drop them off? Walk? Hitchhike? please. This is Soros Inc written all over it. Never mind their warped perception of gun crime. FBI statistics simply don't agree with their statements. I forget the exact percentage, but you have a 25 times higher likelihood to die under the knife at a hospital than you are from a mass shooting. I mean the numbers are just ridiculous.

[RollTime]

1 hour ago, Drak3 said:

Start by disallowing every little thing be handled by drugs. Health, especially mental health, is not a one size fits all ordeal. Proper psychiatry is an underused tool, and many stresses are a result of how American society has built itself in the past few decades.

Incentivize schools to bring on more pyschiatrists and potentially, therapists. Reduce stress by heavily reducing, or removing, homework in middle and high school. Bring in more teachers so that students have more access to their help.

Reduce taxes by cutting the pay of 'representatives,' reducing unnecessary military activity, repealing Obamacare. Move for government offered alternatives to things like health insurance, internet, where current infrastructure can support it. Reducing the cost of being a citizen will help ease stress across the board.

You make some excellent points.

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, knightslugger said:

As an adult YOU are now responsible for your own protection. The bill of rights guarantees it, and the 2nd amendment strips the power of the government to take means of self defense away from you. THAT'S WHAT IT'S FOR!

Not entirely. The Bill of Rights guarantees you the right to defend yourself, but doesn't strip the responsibility of protection from the government. It's for defense both for your person, and against a tyrannical government, and that's the end of it.

 

6 minutes ago, knightslugger said:

well i guess if we're going full retard on politics..

Being enraged that the police are now basically a useless entity is bipartisan, at worst.