Smoking Barrels - LTT's Unnofficial Gun Club!

[Agall]

20 minutes ago, Crunchy Dragon said:

There are very good odds I buy or build an AK at some point in the future just to have one for the collection. Might look into some of the PSA 100-series AKs for that.

 

I've heard AKs tend to like steel cased ammo moreso than brass, how true is that?

I wouldn't think so. The difference, assuming there's a similar amount of energy (sometimes steel case ammo is underpowered), is brass usually has less issues with extraction with its friction coefficient and ductility compared to steel, but AKs were designed around steel. There's also a lot of fudd lore regarding 5.56 AKs, which by their nature, are built around 5.56x45mm. Someone like PSA is designing the gas system and tolerances around brass case ammo and not steel case, but the same can't be said for 7.62x39mm or 5.45x39mm AKs.

 

Where what you're referring to might be accurate is if you had a poorly designed 7.62x39mm AK that was designed around underpowered steel case with a huge gas port, where shooting full powered brass case ammo might rip the rim or case head off upon extraction.

 

Building AKs sucks, since you actually have to build it with rivets and get headspacing gauges, drill the barrel pin, etc. Where 'building' AR-15s is more akin to assembly than building when discussing AKs.

 

PSA's AKs overall are very good, they make most imported AKs look like poor quality now a days. You'll still have a ravenous group of "AK Guys" you'll shout down any suggestion of such, but its the reality of capitalism. PSA's been making AKs for a while now and are actually improving their products over time.

 

Overall, the folding trunnion is the best out of all, but there's specific downsides to it. Some of my PSA AKs have set screws to help tension it while its open, some don't. The specific annoyance is the forward latch on the left side of the receiver, which is quite sharp and annoying when slung, especially if you're not using it.

 

I've considered drilling it out on one of my 16" 7.62x39mm AKs that uses the JMAC Customs 4.5mm to M4 buffer tube with a BCM stock, since that doesn't use the latch. For this AKS-74U clone, its basically required. I'd likely steal that adapter and throw an SBA3 brace on one of these if I end up getting one (and put the standard 4.5mm folder on that full sized one).

[Agall]

 

I don't know if I can describe in words how happy this makes me.

 

https://palmettostatearmory.com/shotshow2024

[Real_PhillBert]

10 hours ago, Agall said:

*SNIP*

 

I don't know if I can describe in words how happy this makes me.

 

https://palmettostatearmory.com/shotshow2024

Similarly, this is happening:

 

https://tommybuilttactical.com/t7-pistol?___SID=S

[Agall]

1 hour ago, Real_PhillBert said:

Similarly, this is happening:

 

https://tommybuilttactical.com/t7-pistol?___SID=S

I've been wanting an MP7 like PDW in 5.7x28mm for a few years now, got hope when 5.7x28mm handguns started popping on the market and the ammo price started dropping.

 

Far more practical than a PS90 or a 5.7x28mm handgun, TBH, precisely where something like 5.7x28mm shines. Shot placement for handgun rounds matter either way and usually involves multiple rounds, this also getting into that better 7-8" barrel length territory too.

 

Its just crazy that they even mirrored parts between their Rock 57, used an AR-15 charging handle, same magazines, etc.

[Real_PhillBert]

1 hour ago, Agall said:

I've been wanting an MP7 like PDW in 5.7x28mm for a few years now, got hope when 5.7x28mm handguns started popping on the market and the ammo price started dropping.

 

Far more practical than a PS90 or a 5.7x28mm handgun, TBH, precisely where something like 5.7x28mm shines. Shot placement for handgun rounds matter either way and usually involves multiple rounds, this also getting into that better 7-8" barrel length territory too.

 

Its just crazy that they even mirrored parts between their Rock 57, used an AR-15 charging handle, same magazines, etc.

Interesting that you say this, can you expound on why it's more practical than a PS90 (at least in the true 10.4" format)? Or are you just trying to avoid NFA items?

 

I understand people trying to avoid NFA items, at least on some level. 

[Agall]

2 hours ago, Real_PhillBert said:

Interesting that you say this, can you expound on why it's more practical than a PS90 (at least in the true 10.4" format)? Or are you just trying to avoid NFA items?

 

I understand people trying to avoid NFA items, at least on some level. 

Its trigger, magazine design, receiver/optics design, general inaccuracy with its barrel design having so much play/flex, NFA otherwise you get the ridiculous 16" version, not as compact as something like the PSA X57, ergonomics clearly design by committee. There's not much gain between something like 7-8", 10" and 16" with 5.7x28mm. Even the difference between a PSA Rock 57 threaded versus non threaded barrel is ~100fps with 40gr (seen a couple of separate tests showing that), so adding another 2-3" of barrel is even more, likely enough to give it maximum powder burn and an optimal dwell time.

 

In comparison you get a 'large format pistol' design with what's generally considered the best magazine location with how putting your hands together is just easier for humans than the latter. I wouldn't be surprised if NATO has some semblance of sanity with the PDW trials and rejected the MP7 because of the caliber, and the P90 because of its atrocious design. Though 5.7x28mm isn't much better than 4.6x30mm and is really only more popular in the US because of HK's failures to dip into the US market in many ways.

 

I've been under the opinion in general that the perfect PDW combo would be 5.7x28mm and the MP7's general design, being a pistol grip fed collapsing stock/brace PDW with the 7-8" barrel length. The PSA x57 model they show is super early and I've seen interviews saying that its got another 12 months or so of development, since the model they're showing is a 3D printed one without a LRBHO and safety, which they're working on. The fact that its parts compatible with the Rock 57 and uses standardized stuff like an AR-15 charging handle is absolute money. 

 

Its a cool idea to think of using a 57 Rock pistol and this X57 PDW as a 'loadout', but TBH, its kind of redundant. I'm not sure what sidearm Seal Team 6 uses when they pull out their MP7s for a mission, but from what I have seen, its usually a tertiary firearm and not a primary/secondary, still, I wouldn't be surprised if they choose it for door busting exclusively because of the form factor. I have seen SEALs discuss 4.6x30mm though, where their rule is "one mag per target"  

[Agall]

On 1/24/2024 at 8:59 AM, Real_PhillBert said:

Interesting that you say this, can you expound on why it's more practical than a PS90 (at least in the true 10.4" format)?

 

Strike Industries at least trying to fix the ergonomic issues with the P90/PS90. Seems like they just copied call of duty though.

 

[Real_PhillBert]

16 minutes ago, Agall said:

*SNIP*

 

Strike Industries at least trying to fix the ergonomic issues with the P90/PS90. Seems like they just copied call of duty though.

 

*SNIP*

I'm not so sure.

 

Seems to me that they're trying to take a PDW and form it into a rifle. The PS90 is (in my opinion) not worth owning in a non-NFA configuration, so spending more money to bastardize it farther is a fools errand. 

 

As for the MP7 vs P90; its interesting how FN and HK approached the contract criteria differently. Personally I do think the MP7 is a better solution than the P90, but really not because of any of the reasons you've listed. I see the magazine configuration on the P90 to be a significant advantage compared to the MP7, as even with a full 50 round magazine the weapon is considerably more space efficient (portable, concealable etc) than the MP7. Sure being a bullpup means the trigger will suffer when compared to other designs, and I have a general distaste for blowback firearms in general, but the P90 (in true 10.4" config) is a pretty capable PDW.

 

The advantage of the MP7 in my opinion basically comes down to an actual rotating bolt which makes it much cleaner and runs a lot better suppressed than blowback, and the piston system (again I have an admitted distaste for blowback fire arms). 

 

That said, If I can actually get my hands on a Tommy built T7 for $3500, I'll be a buyer. The only question becomes whether I do it before or after an SP5-K PDW. 

 

[Agall]

1 hour ago, Real_PhillBert said:

I'm not so sure.

 

Seems to me that they're trying to take a PDW and form it into a rifle. The PS90 is (in my opinion) not worth owning in a non-NFA configuration, so spending more money to bastardize it farther is a fools errand. 

 

As for the MP7 vs P90; its interesting how FN and HK approached the contract criteria differently. Personally I do think the MP7 is a better solution than the P90, but really not because of any of the reasons you've listed. I see the magazine configuration on the P90 to be a significant advantage compared to the MP7, as even with a full 50 round magazine the weapon is considerably more space efficient (portable, concealable etc) than the MP7. Sure being a bullpup means the trigger will suffer when compared to other designs, and I have a general distaste for blowback firearms in general, but the P90 (in true 10.4" config) is a pretty capable PDW.

 

The advantage of the MP7 in my opinion basically comes down to an actual rotating bolt which makes it much cleaner and runs a lot better suppressed than blowback, and the piston system (again I have an admitted distaste for blowback fire arms). 

 

That said, If I can actually get my hands on a Tommy built T7 for $3500, I'll be a buyer. The only question becomes whether I do it before or after an SP5-K PDW. 

 

TBH, I didn't realize 4.6x30mm is so cheap, $0.50/round is comparable to 5.7x28mm... That's down to $0.39/round comparably, but both are pretty solid.

 

You do have a point, the T7 is likely to be as capable as the actual MP7, semi-auto in mind, and it is up for pre-order. A large difference between the PSA X57 and the T7 is the X57 comes from the factory with a collapsing brace, where the T7 you'll have to do something 'borderline' to get it in its full configuration. The initial idea would be an OG tailhook mod.

 

I don't have as big of a problem with most blowback designs, in this case, the X57 will likely end up a pseudo-chassis PDW type modification. In the promotion they showed, it looked like a custom frame that used a modified Rock 57 slide, potentially a bolted on catch to interface with the AR-15 charging handle using the optics mount or rear sight. Less complexity and a short recoil action is plenty in my opinion.

[Why_Me]

My Bushmaster.

 

[Real_PhillBert]

15 hours ago, Agall said:

TBH, I didn't realize 4.6x30mm is so cheap, $0.50/round is comparable to 5.7x28mm... That's down to $0.39/round comparably, but both are pretty solid.

 

You do have a point, the T7 is likely to be as capable as the actual MP7, semi-auto in mind, and it is up for pre-order. A large difference between the PSA X57 and the T7 is the X57 comes from the factory with a collapsing brace, where the T7 you'll have to do something 'borderline' to get it in its full configuration. The initial idea would be an OG tailhook mod.

On the contrary, I dont think most people in the market for a T7 or SP7 if HK ever actually decides to sell that, are afraid of the NFA process. So it's just fill out the F1 on your T7/SP7 pistol to convert it to an SBR, then buy your preferred stock, even the HK one.

 

https://hkparts.net/all-parts/h-k-hk-mp7-retractable-stock/

 

I have the same opinion on the HK SP5, I picked one up just the other week and will be filing an F1 on that very shortly. 

[Agall]

1 hour ago, Real_PhillBert said:

On the contrary, I dont think most people in the market for a T7 or SP7 if HK ever actually decides to sell that, are afraid of the NFA process. So it's just fill out the F1 on your T7/SP7 pistol to convert it to an SBR, then buy your preferred stock, even the HK one.

 

https://hkparts.net/all-parts/h-k-hk-mp7-retractable-stock/

 

I have the same opinion on the HK SP5, I picked one up just the other week and will be filing an F1 on that very shortly. 

The process in itself being in the territory of unconstitutional, though not difficult in 2024. For me, its the travel restrictions as well as legalities behind transporting rifles versus pistols being the major detractors. Sure, most people can cross state lines with an NFA item and never have a problem, but if a fed was looking to screw you, its an easy conviction. I saw enough of my friends get screwed while active duty doing the same things everyone else was doing, they simply angered the wrong people. I'd rather give the ATF the least amount of reasons to ever talk to me.

[SansVarnic]

I done did it. I made an impulse purchase today.  

Wise Arms B-15, on the lower end of the AR line up but its Definitely better than my DPMS Oracle, upper and lower fit is much tighter, and trigger is a world better. 

 

I haven't taken a pics yet but here is a stock photo.

 

 

 

 

 

[Crunchy Dragon]

On 3/1/2024 at 11:25 PM, SansVarnic said:

I done did it. I made an impulse purchase today.  

Wise Arms B-15, on the lower end of the AR line up but its Definitely better than my DPMS Oracle, upper and lower fit is much tighter, and trigger is a world better.

We all gotta start somewhere. Looks like a decent enough rifle.

 

I'm still waiting for the weather where I live to be nice enough that I can go shoot my new one

[SansVarnic]

10 minutes ago, Crunchy Dragon said:

We all gotta start somewhere. Looks like a decent enough rifle.

 

I'm still waiting for the weather where I live to be nice enough that I can go shoot my new one

Tore this thing down when I got home, and I am impressed with the build quality. Honestly if you gave me a $1k or $1.5k AR the differences would be hard to spot.

Now obviously I have not hit the range with this but the quality between the DPMS Oracle AR and this Wise Arms AR is no contest. Wise easily takes the cake.

When I do get out and put 100-300 rounds down range that will be the test of course, but I have a feeling this will be my new range AR.

 

BTW, if curious, I bought it for $565usd

[Crunchy Dragon]

53 minutes ago, SansVarnic said:

Tore this thing down when I got home, and I am impressed with the build quality. Honestly if you gave me a $1k or $1.5k AR the differences would be hard to spot.

Now obviously I have not hit the range with this but the quality between the DPMS Oracle AR and this Wise Arms AR is no contest. Wise easily takes the cake.

When I do get out and put 100-300 rounds down range that will be the test of course, but I have a feeling this will be my new range AR.

 

BTW, if curious, I bought it for $565usd

That's pretty solid for sure, I bought my PSA for just over $600.

 

My custom rifle is about $1-1.1k in parts, most of it was spent on the barrel and BCG. Still need to collect some good pictures of it(maybe one day in 50 years when I'm not busy), but so far it feels really good in the hand. I'm pretty pleased with it, for being my first build.

 

What kind of triggers are in yours? Mine both have a standard mil-spec 2 stage that feels solid, but I've also not felt many other AR triggers.

[SansVarnic]

10 hours ago, Crunchy Dragon said:

What kind of triggers are in yours? Mine both have a standard mil-spec 2 stage that feels solid, but I've also not felt many other AR triggers

Didnt pull out the trigger and i should have. I'll do that later but in handling it and doing a few dry fires it feels like it might be milspec. 

[Dillpickle23422]

Never realized this thread existed! Just helped my friend finish building his fully custom built AR10, chambered in 6.5 creedmoor. It's wayyyy too heavy for me, personally, but he loves it. 

[Agall]

On 3/1/2024 at 9:25 PM, SansVarnic said:

I done did it. I made an impulse purchase today.  

Wise Arms B-15, on the lower end of the AR line up but its Definitely better than my DPMS Oracle, upper and lower fit is much tighter, and trigger is a world better. 

 

I haven't taken a pics yet but here is a stock photo.

 

 

 

 

 

If you watch Garand Thumb's recently video on a PSA upper, 'budget' doesn't start to matter until you're like 5k rounds with the wear of full auto.

[Agall]

20 hours ago, SansVarnic said:

Didnt pull out the trigger and i should have. I'll do that later but in handling it and doing a few dry fires it feels like it might be milspec. 

Milspec AR triggers are still miles better than most. There's a safety aspect to milspec, same with 90 degree safeties. I personally use a 90 degree safety on my AR.

 

19 minutes ago, Dillpickle23422 said:

Never realized this thread existed! Just helped my friend finish building his fully custom built AR10, chambered in 6.5 creedmoor. It's wayyyy too heavy for me, personally, but he loves it. 

Y'all use a heavy profile barrel?

[Levent]

Hello. I am looking to get a new weapon. Choices are as follows, UTS XTR-12 or Derya Mk12.

 

I reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaly dig the AR10 style looks of XTR-12 however everyone seems to indicate that I have to use high grain shells (which not a big deal, I am not looking to dump thousands of rounds) in order for it to cycle properly. Derya MK12 on the otherhand has nothing but praise going for it, I can even get a 20 or 30 round drum mag, longer barrel (somehow its not illegal).

 

Only thing that XTR-12 going for it maybe I can convert it to an actual 308 with a upper and barrel? If so that would be the deal breaker for me. Any ideas? Never really had much interest in internals of a weapon.

 

[Agall]

2 hours ago, Levent said:

Hello. I am looking to get a new weapon. Choices are as follows, UTS XTR-12 or Derya Mk12.

 

I reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaly dig the AR10 style looks of XTR-12 however everyone seems to indicate that I have to use high grain shells (which not a big deal, I am not looking to dump thousands of rounds) in order for it to cycle properly. Derya MK12 on the otherhand has nothing but praise going for it, I can even get a 20 or 30 round drum mag, longer barrel (somehow its not illegal).

 

Only thing that XTR-12 going for it maybe I can convert it to an actual 308 with a upper and barrel? If so that would be the deal breaker for me. Any ideas? Never really had much interest in internals of a weapon.

 

Huh, thought I already replied to this, here we go again I guess:

 

I'd stay away from these budget semi-auto shotguns in general. I'd be worried about anything that's convertible between 12ga and .308 unless its an upper receiver swap, but then they're going to have dramatically different buffer weights.

 

Semi-auto shotguns in general aren't that great. Even the absolute best ones (benelli and beretta's offerings, including some smaller companies that make some really good but are even more expensive than benelli's) will struggle to cycle some ammo. 

 

TFB on Youtube has done a few burndowns of these Turkish imported shotguns and shown they'll struggle to last past a few hundred rounds total. Shotguns in general are dramatically lower pressure firearms compared to a rifle and they're not using rifled barrels, so they're pretty cheap to produce. In comparison, the US made Mossberg Maverick is a dramatically more practical shotgun.

 

Another variable being with magazine fed shotguns, you shouldn't keep the magazines loaded for extended periods. The walls of shotgun shells aren't that rigid and they'll compress/deform if left in a magazine which can cause feeding issues. Not really an issue with tube fed since structurally, they're better supported and the force vector is better handled by the cylindrical body.

 

If you're using it exclusively as a range toy, then I'd just go for a 22lr clone gun instead. Its cheaper to shoot and far less likely to destroy itself. You can also run into severe limitations depending on the ranges in your area with 12ga, some ranges don't let you shoot anything but birdshot. Something 22lr doesn't run into.

 

TLDR: Get a pump shotgun or spend a lot more to get a good magazine fed one. A pump will probably have a better 'firing rate' than a cheap Turkish imported semi-auto in most ammo, and won't kill itself over time.

[Levent]

8 minutes ago, Agall said:

If you're using it exclusively as a range toy, then I'd just go for a 22lr clone gun instead. Its cheaper to shoot and far less likely to destroy itself. You can also run into severe limitations depending on the ranges in your area with 12ga, some ranges don't let you shoot anything but birdshot. Something 22lr doesn't run into.

Actually these are not imports for me, they are made few hours away from me (I even drove past Derya's factory). I cannot get anything rifled, I cant even get the permit. These 12ga rifles fall under hunting rifles so I can get away with just having an "hunting" license and do the 308 switcheroo myself.

[Agall]

51 minutes ago, Levent said:

Actually these are not imports for me, they are made few hours away from me (I even drove past Derya's factory). I cannot get anything rifled, I cant even get the permit. These 12ga rifles fall under hunting rifles so I can get away with just having an "hunting" license and do the 308 switcheroo myself.

Are we talking about a US state here, just to confirm some legalities since firearms are a legal minefield that even gets down to the county level in the US.

 

Looks like Derya is also a Turkish company, if you're talking about a US factory/plant, they probably produce certain parts in Turkey, import the parts, then make them 'US made' to circumvent magazine and feature restrictions with imported firearms. Zastava does this where they import them as 'sporter rifles' then have a US facility to convert them to fully featured rifles. 

 

I'd be careful circumventing licensing requirements by converting firearms if you're worried about the government. It would be no different than with US federal law, taking a semi-automatic firearm and converting it to fully automatic, which would be illegal, especially since the NFA Form 1 type registration for such has been closed since 1989 (totally unconstitutional, but that's the government for you). Changing the type of firearm under legal classification being where that's similar to what you're suggesting.