Smoking Barrels - LTT's Unnofficial Gun Club!

[Marmchmmr]

Me too

Gunbroker is evil at times

[vf1000ride]

On 7/2/2023 at 3:30 PM, VINCEindaHOUSE said:

Just got these 2 today

 

Who made the Garand? I'm  kinda a sucker for those things. 

[VINCEindaHOUSE]

20 minutes ago, vf1000ride said:

Who made the Garand? I'm  kinda a sucker for those things. 

springfield i believe

 

[Guest]

https://www.vegaforce.com/CATPAWS/index.html?fbclid=IwAR1RUibESrUXns_4igY3dOgW7A4e7aXJNqrPHNGXoNfuzPH7IH_fer3wpO4

 

This is real.
This is from a high-end airsoft company.

[Agall]

On 7/4/2023 at 4:44 PM, vf1000ride said:

Who made the Garand? I'm  kinda a sucker for those things. 

You can either go on royaltigerimports or atlanticfirearms to find either 'as is' surplus condition or restored M1 Garands for anywhere from $1500-2500, depending on condition and manufacturer.

 

Springfield's are usually the cheapest since they were made is the highest quantities so they're not as rare. Other manufacturers like Berretta or Winchester they'll charge more for.

 

I've thought about many times picking up one of the refurbished models to shoot with, but I just don't have room to store any more long guns without buying a second safe.

 

Who Made M1 Garands? How Many Were Made? When Were They Made? - Scott Duff Historic Martial Arms Publications (scott-duff.com)

 

"During the entire production history of the M1 rifle, Springfield Armory produced 4,188,669 M1s. Combined with the three private contractors’ output, a total of 5,468,772 M1 rifles were manufactured."

[Crunchy Dragon]

3 hours ago, Agall said:

Springfield's are usually the cheapest since they were made is the highest quantities so they're not as rare. Other manufacturers like Berretta or Winchester they'll charge more for.

Sounds about right. Everyone I know who owns a Garand owns a Springfield

 

Garand is on my must-have list of firearms.

[vf1000ride]

10 hours ago, Agall said:

Springfield's are usually the cheapest since they were made is the highest quantities so they're not as rare. Other manufacturers like Berretta or Winchester they'll charge more for.

 

I have 1 Springfield and a pair of H&R's (Harrington & Richardson) Garands.  I bought the first H&R so I didn't have to shoot the Springfield as much and then I got a deal I couldn't pass up on for the second one.  Not sure if I posted this pic already but it's the 2 H&R's in the front with the Springfield in the back.  The Springfield is a 206K serial number so that puts it's build date, March 1941, as well before the US got into the war.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, vf1000ride said:

 

I have 1 Springfield and a pair of H&R's (Harrington & Richardson) Garands.  I bought the first H&R so I didn't have to shoot the Springfield as much and then I got a deal I couldn't pass up on for the second one.  Not sure if I posted this pic already but it's the 2 H&R's in the front with the Springfield in the back.  The Springfield is a 206K serial number so that puts it's build date, March 1941, as well before the US got into the war.

Is that ammo can like a spam can or is it one of those with the pull ring on the front to open? 

[Agall]

16 hours ago, Crunchy Dragon said:

Sounds about right. Everyone I know who owns a Garand owns a Springfield

 

Garand is on my must-have list of firearms.

I keep veering away from having one because of the ammo restrictions. My 6.5 carcano, 8mm mauser, and 91/30 can shoot any new production ammo I can find, which the M1 Garand doesn't share with its lower pressure requirements compared to modern loads. I don't want to shoot corrosive surplus ammo and would rather spend more for new production stuff.

[vf1000ride]

53 minutes ago, fpo said:

Is that ammo can like a spam can or is it one of those with the pull ring on the front to open? 

See the picture below, but yes, spam can style.  They have a key on the lid that you break off and grab the little metal tab on the side of the can.  Turn the key to pull a ribbon of metal away from the can and separate the top from the sides.

5 minutes ago, Agall said:

I keep veering away from having one because of the ammo restrictions. My 6.5 carcano, 8mm mauser, and 91/30 can shoot any new production ammo I can find, which the M1 Garand doesn't share with its lower pressure requirements compared to modern loads. I don't want to shoot corrosive surplus ammo and would rather spend more for new production stuff.

Luckily a lot of surplus .30-06 is non-corrosive and there are several companies making new ammo specifically loaded to Garand specs.  All American made surplus, the Danish (AMA headstamp) and Greek(HXP headstamp) ammo is good stuff though most of that is getting really hard to come by if impossible.  I reload my own so I just keep reloading what is already open and then have a pretty good collection of stuff that is still sealed as a backup as the brass wears out.

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, vf1000ride said:

See the picture below, but yes, spam can style.  They have a key on the lid that you break off and grab the little metal tab on the side of the can.  Turn the key to pull a ribbon of metal away from the can and separate the top from the sides.

Luckily a lot of surplus .30-06 is non-corrosive and there are several companies making new ammo specifically loaded to Garand specs.  All American made surplus, the Danish (AMA headstamp) and Greek(HXP headstamp) ammo is good stuff though most of that is getting really hard to come by if impossible.  I reload my own so I just keep reloading what is already open and then have a pretty good collection of stuff that is still sealed as a backup as the brass wears out.

Nice. 

 

I had an ammo box that looked like this at one point:

[Agall]

Has anyone messed with faux/inert suppressors (talking in the US with the oppressive NFA)? I've only dealt with the Witt SME and 4 piece flash hiders personally. My AK105 has a P&W extended Strela 4 piece that makes it very pleasant to shoot without ear pro for several rounds, which gives me ideas with 300blk. The Witt SME's 5.56 version being on a Taurus TX22 competition that makes it very pleasant to the ears.

 

I've wanted something in 300blk, but the two stamp nature of it in its true form kind of sucks. 300blk unsuppressed is just a better Draco, but a 8-10" with a 6-8" P&W inert suppressor should make it reasonably 'hearing safe' at the shooter's ear.

 

Idea being a 0 stamp 300blk that's 'close enough' in purpose, something similar to the Sig Sauer Rattler Canebrake. It doesn't have to be entirely practical, although not bursting your eardrums with a shot inside would be nice and I think do-able without a suppressor in that configuration.

 

**obviously this isn't intended to circumvent the NFA's regulation of suppressors, but to mitigate the effect of the report to the shooter**

[Crunchy Dragon]

21 minutes ago, Agall said:

**obviously this isn't intended to circumvent the NFA's regulation of suppressors, but to mitigate the effect of the report to the shooter**

My understanding is that subsonic ammunition will always be quieter than supersonic, so I feel like there could be something done here when you factor that.

 

I'm not familiar with the data or specifications, but I recall hearing(lol) subsonic + suppressed 9mm, .22, and .300 BLK are all hearing-safe. Obviously the report will be much louder indoors, but I'm not very familiar with suppressors(inert or otherwise).

 

I also have my eye on a two stamp .300 BLK rifle for home defense, because I think it would be pretty neat to not lose my hearing from discharging a weapon in my home. Sucks that it means I have to budget for an extra $400 and about a year.

[Agall]

27 minutes ago, Crunchy Dragon said:

My understanding is that subsonic ammunition will always be quieter than supersonic, so I feel like there could be something done here when you factor that.

 

I'm not familiar with the data or specifications, but I recall hearing(lol) subsonic + suppressed 9mm, .22, and .300 BLK are all hearing-safe. Obviously the report will be much louder indoors, but I'm not very familiar with suppressors(inert or otherwise).

 

I also have my eye on a two stamp .300 BLK rifle for home defense, because I think it would be pretty neat to not lose my hearing from discharging a weapon in my home. Sucks that it means I have to budget for an extra $400 and about a year.

I had about a dozen surgeries on my ears as a kid which involved my eardrums not repairing from damage, so I'm a bit concerned about whether +10 years later if I ever ruptured them if they would repair themselves now, being frankensteined reconstructions (spoilers, they probably won't).

 

Same concern here, I'd rather not have to pop a few rounds of M855 indoors in that scenario out of my 14.5", and I really don't want to do the NFA process. I've been close to starting it multiple times, but its hard to accept the infringement on principle, no matter how much I'd like to have a suppressor or properly configured firearm. I'm sort of hoping and I've been emailing my Governor/representatives about passing something like what Texas has, and my national representatives about pushing legislation for contesting the NFA (although that might happen through the new Bruen standard, fingers crossed ) 

 

I will say my AK105 with the P&W strela 4 piece I would be comfortable popping rounds off with indoors in that scenario, but the current 1k batch of Wolf 60gr 5.45x39mm that I bought over a year ago and haven't fully burned through has had like 1/20 hard primers and AAC hasn't spun up 5.45x39mm production yet. I've thought about dropping enough for 3 magazines worth of the Hornady polymer tip 5.45x39mm, but it's so expensive now. 5.45x39mm I would consider in that class, depending on muzzle device.

 

5.45x39mm out of a 12" barrel is quite an impressive round with a minimal report and its something I'll do 6-10 rounds without hear pro occasionally (and doesn't ring my ears), the reliability of the ammo though has killed it as my bedside option unfortunately. Didn't have any issues with the last 1k batch of Wolf 60gr 5.45.

[Crunchy Dragon]

20 minutes ago, Agall said:

I'm sort of hoping and I've been emailing my Governor/representatives about passing something like what Texas has, and my national representatives about pushing legislation for contesting the NFA (although that might happen through the new Bruen standard, fingers crossed )

I don't want to delve too far into politics, but I would say "if Bruen can't combat the pistol brace fiasco, there's little to no hope for it combating the NFA" and leave it at that. I'm always open to being proven wrong, though.
A lways
B e
C ontacting your representatives

 

21 minutes ago, Agall said:

I will say my AK105 with the P&W strela 4 piece I would be comfortable popping rounds off with indoors in that scenario, but the current 1k batch of Wolf 60gr 5.45x39mm that I bought over a year ago and haven't fully burned through has had like 1/20 hard primers and AAC hasn't spun up 5.45x39mm production yet. I've thought about dropping enough for 3 magazines worth of the Hornady polymer tip 5.45x39mm, but it's so expensive now. 5.45x39mm I would consider in that class, depending on muzzle device.

The .223 rounds that live in my home defense AR-15 cost me $2/round

They're supposed to have a special kind of powder that doesn't flash as much so I don't have to worry about blinding myself at the same as I blow out my eardrums from sending unsuppressed .223 Remington out of a 16" barrel with an A2 flash hider down a dark narrow hallway, which is nice, but if I had to choose one I'd take the flash of bright light over hearing loss in every case.

 

I've not bought any AAC ammo yet. It's also confusing because there's the AAC brand under PSA, and then there's the AAC that helped developed .300 Blackout -- unless they're actually the same company and I'm just even more confused than I thought I was....

 

26 minutes ago, Agall said:

5.45x39mm out of a 12" barrel is quite an impressive round with a minimal report and its something I'll do 6-10 rounds without hear pro occasionally (and doesn't ring my ears), the reliability of the ammo though has killed it as my bedside option unfortunately. Didn't have any issues with the last 1k batch of Wolf 60gr 5.45.

Good to know. I'm not yet brave enough to pop anything off without ear pro, especially as I've already had tinnitus most of my life. Is the issue with reliability due to cartridge or the specific batch of ammo, do you think?

I absolutely dread the prospect of sending M193 or M855 downrange without ear pro, I don't ever want to do that.

 

I had a weird thing happen with steelcase ammo in my AR. Wolf had no issues, Tula had no issues, but Red Army Standard so far has failed to extract in 1/100 shots. It caught me off guard because every single casing is labeled "TulAmmo". I don't have that issue with brass so that's what I run now, combined with buying a case of PMC X-Tac for 41cpr.

I love brass because it can be reloaded(which I'll probably get into in the future) but I also love steel because it's easy to pick up, being magnetic. It's a bit of a tricky spot to be in.

 

Random tangent, but I've also burned my way through all my 9mm and need to bring more of that into the house. Luckily it's a heck of a lot cheaper than buying .223 or 5.56 by about 50%. After that, I probably continue my hunt for a holster and belt for my Hellcat Pro and continue training with it.

[Agall]

26 minutes ago, Crunchy Dragon said:

I don't want to delve too far into politics, but I would say "if Bruen can't combat the pistol brace fiasco, there's little to no hope for it combating the NFA" and leave it at that. I'm always open to being proven wrong, though.
A lways
B e
C ontacting your representatives

 

The .223 rounds that live in my home defense AR-15 cost me $2/round

They're supposed to have a special kind of powder that doesn't flash as much so I don't have to worry about blinding myself at the same as I blow out my eardrums from sending unsuppressed .223 Remington out of a 16" barrel with an A2 flash hider down a dark narrow hallway, which is nice, but if I had to choose one I'd take the flash of bright light over hearing loss in every case.

 

I've not bought any AAC ammo yet. It's also confusing because there's the AAC brand under PSA, and then there's the AAC that helped developed .300 Blackout -- unless they're actually the same company and I'm just even more confused than I thought I was....

 

Good to know. I'm not yet brave enough to pop anything off without ear pro, especially as I've already had tinnitus most of my life. Is the issue with reliability due to cartridge or the specific batch of ammo, do you think?

I absolutely dread the prospect of sending M193 or M855 downrange without ear pro, I don't ever want to do that.

 

I had a weird thing happen with steelcase ammo in my AR. Wolf had no issues, Tula had no issues, but Red Army Standard so far has failed to extract in 1/100 shots. It caught me off guard because every single casing is labeled "TulAmmo". I don't have that issue with brass so that's what I run now, combined with buying a case of PMC X-Tac for 41cpr.

I love brass because it can be reloaded(which I'll probably get into in the future) but I also love steel because it's easy to pick up, being magnetic. It's a bit of a tricky spot to be in.

 

Random tangent, but I've also burned my way through all my 9mm and need to bring more of that into the house. Luckily it's a heck of a lot cheaper than buying .223 or 5.56 by about 50%. After that, I probably continue my hunt for a holster and belt for my Hellcat Pro and continue training with it.

I agree, contact your representatives with your concerns, to conclude any political-ish topics.

 

My AR-15 which is basically a WWSD 2020 clone but with the faxon 14.5" integral pencil barrel instead has only ever fired M855, and I plan to keep it that way  

 

The Wolf 5.45 is definitely a bad batch, possibly just bad crimping or just a batch of hard primers. It gets a solid strike and doesn't go bang, sometimes will though with a second strike.

 

I believe they're the same company, PSA is somewhat of a monster now swallowing up other defunked companies and making them great again. Been cool seeing them grow, I remember shopping at their stores back in 2015/2016 or so when I lived in SC.

 

My EDC was replaced by a regular hellcat with the surefire XSC and a really good holster after about a year of training/validation on it prior. I might be able to find who made it, but the only modifications I've made is adding that light and the apex replacement trigger+springs kit. I found myself better on irons and point shooting than using a red dot on the hellcat, though I've used red dots on various handguns since at least 2018. Also its surprisingly how less comfortable EDC CCing a red dot is once I've had a variety, including DA only snubbies.

 

In terms of belt, I just have a 1.5" inner belt for like a duty belt. The one I ended up getting was from WPS and works very well as a sturdy EDC belt while also being slap on compatible with a 2" duty belt or other things you might want to retain with velcro on a belt. 

[Crunchy Dragon]

39 minutes ago, Agall said:

My AR-15 which is basically a WWSD 2020 clone but with the faxon 14.5" integral pencil barrel instead has only ever fired M855, and I plan to keep it that way

I hear really good things about Faxon barrels. I haven't looked into putting any of their parts into my guns yet, but they've been on my radar for a year or two.

 

40 minutes ago, Agall said:

My EDC was replaced by a regular hellcat with the surefire XSC and a really good holster after about a year of training/validation on it prior. I might be able to find who made it, but the only modifications I've made is adding that light and the apex replacement trigger+springs kit. I found myself better on irons and point shooting than using a red dot on the hellcat, though I've used red dots on various handguns since at least 2018. Also its surprisingly how less comfortable EDC CCing a red dot is once I've had a variety, including DA only snubbies.

I'm not a fan of red dots on handguns yet. It feels like there's too much going on in too little space for me. Then again the only RDS I've had on a handgun was also a lower 1/3 cowitness and I just didn't like looking through it with so many things in the sight picture. Ended up turning off the red dot and shooting irons instead.

 

I might still buy a normal Hellcat just to have something smaller. I'm not a particularly large guy and I've shot both the Hellcat and Hellcat Pro, they feel pretty similar and both are amazing to shoot. A very small part of me wants to put a laser on my Hellcat Pro.

[Agall]

10 minutes ago, Crunchy Dragon said:

I hear really good things about Faxon barrels. I haven't looked into putting any of their parts into my guns yet, but they've been on my radar for a year or two.

 

I'm not a fan of red dots on handguns yet. It feels like there's too much going on in too little space for me. Then again the only RDS I've had on a handgun was also a lower 1/3 cowitness and I just didn't like looking through it with so many things in the sight picture. Ended up turning off the red dot and shooting irons instead.

 

I might still buy a normal Hellcat just to have something smaller. I'm not a particularly large guy and I've shot both the Hellcat and Hellcat Pro, they feel pretty similar and both are amazing to shoot. A very small part of me wants to put a laser on my Hellcat Pro.

I've personally had 6 different types of red dots on various handguns throughout the years. I find them very nice on full sized guns for accuracy at distance and speed at close. However, on most carry guns I've had, I have enough repetition on draw to point shoot out to even 25 yards. Enclosed red dots being the best and I've looked at getting a full sized 9mm, mostly at an M17 with the new M17 red dot from Sig.

Personally I haven't seen a good argument for full sized 9mm. It doesn't get much performance over a compact/sub compact and doesn't get that much more capacity. I see 5.7x28mm taking over the duty size gun since with the barrel length and capacity, its overall a far more capable firearm in that role. Handguns are just poking holes in stuff anyways with shot placement being very important, why not be able to poke more holes faster with a better BC? 5.7x28mm out of shorter than a 5" barrel though SUCKS, so it practically requires a full sized handgun in my opinion.

[Crunchy Dragon]

56 minutes ago, Agall said:

I've personally had 6 different types of red dots on various handguns throughout the years. I find them very nice on full sized guns for accuracy at distance and speed at close. However, on most carry guns I've had, I have enough repetition on draw to point shoot out to even 25 yards. Enclosed red dots being the best and I've looked at getting a full sized 9mm, mostly at an M17 with the new M17 red dot from Sig.

Yeah, I need to get better. I've only had 250 rounds on the Hellcat, I need probably a good few hundred more before I'll feel remotely ready to carry it.

 

56 minutes ago, Agall said:

Personally I haven't seen a good argument for full sized 9mm. It doesn't get much performance over a compact/sub compact and doesn't get that much more capacity.

Certainly not outside something like USPSA or other competition spaces. There's definitely an argument to be made for having 20+ round capacity instead of up to 15-17. If I was going into bear country with a Glock 20 or something like that, I'd probably want a full size for more control of the large round known as 10mm Auto, but that's also not a 9mm anymore

[Real_PhillBert]

16 hours ago, Agall said:

I had about a dozen surgeries on my ears as a kid which involved my eardrums not repairing from damage, so I'm a bit concerned about whether +10 years later if I ever ruptured them if they would repair themselves now, being frankensteined reconstructions (spoilers, they probably won't).

 

Same concern here, I'd rather not have to pop a few rounds of M855 indoors in that scenario out of my 14.5", and I really don't want to do the NFA process. I've been close to starting it multiple times, but its hard to accept the infringement on principle, no matter how much I'd like to have a suppressor or properly configured firearm. I'm sort of hoping and I've been emailing my Governor/representatives about passing something like what Texas has, and my national representatives about pushing legislation for contesting the NFA (although that might happen through the new Bruen standard, fingers crossed ) 

Probably not what you want to hear but... Buy a can. 

 

Sure you can use the blast diverters and whatnot that help a bit, but they offer such a small change when compared to an actual suppressor that IMHO, they arent worth it. 

 

 

 

 

Yes, the $200 stamp sucks, and the wait time sucks even more. However the more real suppressors that are out there, the easier it is to argue "common use" in court, and get the NFA tossed as in conflict with the 2A.

[Agall]

51 minutes ago, Real_PhillBert said:

Probably not what you want to hear but... Buy a can. 

 

Sure you can use the blast diverters and whatnot that help a bit, but they offer such a small change when compared to an actual suppressor that IMHO, they arent worth it. 

 

 

 

 

Yes, the $200 stamp sucks, and the wait time sucks even more. However the more real suppressors that are out there, the easier it is to argue "common use" in court, and get the NFA tossed as in conflict with the 2A.

 

I understand the common use argument, but I don't think it's necessary legally (not a lawyer). Law's been unchallenged since 1939 and even the US v Miller case likely wouldn't hold standing in 2023 with the XM26's existence (on top of the Heller and Bruen decisions). 

 

I have more concern with the registry, storage and transportation requirements, etc that comes with the NFA. I'd prefer to give the ATF the least amount of reasons to show up at my house.

 

I've found 4 piece flash hiders to be quite effective in this sphere. When you think about it, its really just a single baffled suppressor.

 

14 hours ago, Crunchy Dragon said:

Yeah, I need to get better. I've only had 250 rounds on the Hellcat, I need probably a good few hundred more before I'll feel remotely ready to carry it.

 

Certainly not outside something like USPSA or other competition spaces. There's definitely an argument to be made for having 20+ round capacity instead of up to 15-17. If I was going into bear country with a Glock 20 or something like that, I'd probably want a full size for more control of the large round known as 10mm Auto, but that's also not a 9mm anymore

I've got a 44mag for that and handgun hunting  Bears can be a concern here but it's mostly cougars (the Felidae type) but they largely stay away from people here. 5.7x28mm is mostly a 2 legged predator round in my opinion, although I wouldn't trust it against a cougar. 9mm is even a stretch against those furry murder machines, where either 357mag or higher is what I'd be comfortable with.

 

Although if you happened to need to dump +20 rounds of 5.7 into a cougar, its likely to not be a problem anymore. I look at it like the .308 vs 5.56 argument when comparing 9mm and 5.7. Its enough energy for the intended purpose but gives more capacity which includes how much you can carry in total. 

[Real_PhillBert]

21 minutes ago, Agall said:

I have more concern with the registry, storage and transportation requirements, etc that comes with the NFA. I'd prefer to give the ATF the least amount of reasons to show up at my house.

 

I've found 4 piece flash hiders to be quite effective in this sphere. When you think about it, its really just a single baffled suppressor.

 

I think you've fallen to some NFA misconceptions here:

 

Registry: yes this is a thing and sucks but IMHO if you don't think there's already a registry based on the 4473... I have bad news for you.

 

Storage: There are no federal storage requirements on NFA items. Your state or locality may have something, but there are no restrictions within the NFA on storage. You would be smart to have a decent safe, but that's not a requirement. 

 

Transport: I assume you're talking about the 5320.20; which only pertains to interstate travel. I live ~3mi from a state boarder, you can fill that out once a year (for SBRs, Suppressors do not need this) and submit it. Or don't fill it out and go about your marry way; I'm not a cop. At the last two gun match I competed in there was ~4-5 SBRs and x2 suppressors. I competed with my suppressed SBR, no papers were ever checked.

 

The ATF showing up: common misconception, you do not forfeit your 4th amendment when you purchase an NFA item, they cannot simply show up and force an inspection of the NFA items. I'm not sure where this idea comes from, I've heard it a bunch of times, it's simply not true. 

[Agall]

1 minute ago, Real_PhillBert said:

 

I think you've fallen to some NFA misconceptions here:

 

Registry: yes this is a thing and sucks but IMHO if you don't think there's already a registry based on the 4473... I have bad news for you.

 

Storage: There are no federal storage requirements on NFA items. Your state or locality may have something, but there are no restrictions within the NFA on storage. You would be smart to have a decent safe, but that's not a requirement. 

 

Transport: I assume you're talking about the 5320.20; which only pertains to interstate travel. I live ~3mi from a state boarder, you can fill that out once a year (for SBRs, Suppressors do not need this) and submit it. Or don't fill it out and go about your marry way; I'm not a cop. At the last two gun match I competed in there was ~4-5 SBRs and x2 suppressors. I competed with my suppressed SBR, no papers were ever checked.

 

The ATF showing up: common misconception, you do not forfeit your 4th amendment when you purchase an NFA item, they cannot simply show up and force an inspection of the NFA items. I'm not sure where this idea comes from, I've heard it a bunch of times, it's simply not true. 

I'm not referring to those common misconceptions. The ATF can show up at your house to 'talk' for various reasons, having NFA items just gives them another whole potential reason to, and potentially a valid one since you are responsible for demonstrating that you're authorized to own those items with the tax stamp. Even if I'm just out on public land and the ATF is looking for problems, I'd rather not give them another reason to say "Hi" because they noticed a suppressor, short boi, or fast boi.

 

Transport requirement you addressed that I was referring to. Regardless of how often that requirement is enforced, its still a requirement, so it's something they can always use against you even if you're otherwise acting entirely within the law.

 

Yes, there's no specific storage requirements, but they're secondary to the restricted access nature of NFA items regarding how and who can use those items. Practically speaking, it's required to securely store NFA items to prevent unauthorized access, including responsible people they're not registered to. With the propensity for the ATF to stretch the meaning of the law, it's not unreasonable to interpret that as a storage requirement. Obviously having a safe to secure any firearm is responsible, but the NFA puts it on another level that I don't find acceptable, and I'd rather not subject my whole family to the NFA process just to prevent that problem.

 

Yes, I'm aware that the ATF or law enforcement can't just lookup NFA item and do an inspection like they can with FFLs, even with how restricted those FFL inspections are already. My understanding of that is they need a court to pull the NFA registry to retrieve that information, assuming the ATF is operating within their legal authority regarding databases and registries (alludes to 4473's). Most of my recent purchases in this state were through an FFL that shut down, not through revocation, but because the company's owner didn't want to deal with it anymore, so the ATF has those 4473's already. I'm also a veteran who's had a security clearance, so I'm on plenty of lists and fingerprinted already by at least the DoD. The registry itself being a problem of principle and legality, not because of paranoia. 

 

I personally don't trust the institution that currently regulates those items to act within their legal authority given the last few years, and I'd rather not reinforce that legal authority by participating in the NFA. I'll gladly keep pestering my representatives and supporting organizations that are actually making progress now, which has been really nice to see, but there's going to need to be some substantial change for me to want to participate in the process.

 

 

[atxcyclist]

12 hours ago, Real_PhillBert said:

 

The ATF showing up: common misconception, you do not forfeit your 4th amendment when you purchase an NFA item, they cannot simply show up and force an inspection of the NFA items. I'm not sure where this idea comes from, I've heard it a bunch of times, it's simply not true. 

 

This is the story they told my associate and I when I managed an FFL, they were very adamant that if we did the S.O.T. and started selling NFA items, we would be subject to these very same 'surprise' inspections. It could be our liaison/agent was just blowing smoke, but it was the main factor in why we never got into NFA stuff, while I was working there at least. Getting a call at 6pm on a Tuesday that they were going elbow-deep at 8am on Wednesday, was just not reasonable unless we were going to be selling a lot.

[Real_PhillBert]

9 hours ago, atxcyclist said:

 

This is the story they told my associate and I when I managed an FFL, they were very adamant that if we did the S.O.T. and started selling NFA items, we would be subject to these very same 'surprise' inspections. It could be our liaison/agent was just blowing smoke, but it was the main factor in why we never got into NFA stuff, while I was working there at least. Getting a call at 6pm on a Tuesday that they were going elbow-deep at 8am on Wednesday, was just not reasonable unless we were going to be selling a lot.

On the FFL/SOT side, surprise inspections are a real thing. Just not for end users. I have no idea how common they are though. 

 

I actually fully understand why an FFL wouldn't want to get into NFA goods given all the headache and long storage times.