Paid Mod Complaints Have Cost Valve $1 Million

[SIGSEGV]

Well, now we know how to make companies lose money

[RagnarokDel]

Tweaks and minor mods sure. Straight up swaps of meshes and textures, sure.

 

Actual full-fledged mods? Very few.

 

Mod = changes in gameplay, additional mechanics or additional content. Those are the mods I care about anyway, the ones that take a lot of effort and extend the life of a game. A texture swap is nice, but isn't going to extend any lifespans.

I believe SkyUI was released before the creation tool.

[EChondo]

75% for doing absolutely nothing, is stupidly greedy. End of story.

I agree that 75% is insanely high, but at max/min I think Valve and Bethesda should have only received 5% each. 5% for Valve for server upkeep/use and 5% for Bethesda for licensing/permission of mod selling.

 

The mod is almost entirely made by the modder so they should receive the majority of the revenue.

I believe SkyUI was released before the creation tool.

You are correct. SkyUI was at the very least uploaded to the Nexus on Dec 17, 2011 while the Creation Kit from Bethesda was available on Feb 7, 2012.

[Trik'Stari]

I agree that 75% is insanely high, but at max/min I think Valve and Bethesda should have only received 5% each. 5% for Valve for server upkeep/use and 5% for Bethesda for licensing/permission of mod selling.

 

The mod is almost entirely made by the modder so they should receive the majority of the revenue.

You are correct. SkyUI was at the very least uploaded to the Nexus on Dec 17, 2011 while the Creation Kit from Bethesda was available on Feb 7, 2012.

Indeed. Imagine how successful this might have been if that had been the case.

[TheMidnightNarwhal]

I think an important thing to note here from the valve post is this (yes, I am being nit picky)

Now that you've backed a dump truck of feedback onto our inboxes, we'll be chewing through that, but if you have any further thoughts let us know.

Dump trucks are for collecting garbage, so does this mean that they consider the outburst and our opinion to be garbage? It's quite insulting to call feedback a "dump", even if figuratively and people should note that Valve did this grudgingly, and not out of the goodness of their hearts.

 

A dump truck is not necessarily shit in it...

 

[TheMidnightNarwhal]

 

Since you are such a great proponent of this look at the filth that was being sold for money at the work shop:

http://imgur.com/gallery/bqcla/new

 

 

Ain't happy about it don't buy the mod or just refund it, lol.

[Albatross]

cuz you`re the one who deserves all that money really... for sitting on your ass...

 

not a company filled with people who each are smarter than you and your next 10 relatives put together

 

The butthurt is real, wow. Who ever mentioned me, by the way? You mean the hard working modders who put more effort into their creations than Bethesda does? Yea, they deserve the money for their work, not Bethesda.

 

Ah, insulting the intelligence of another poster...the number one sign of a child at the keyboard. Awesome, but sure, a whole bunch of lazy developers are "smarter" than me and my relatives put together. You sure showed me though, whoo, I better watch out for next time. :rolleyes:

[SirPaul]

Well damn, guess they deserve it for the greedy ass move they made.

 

greedy. ..  yea.

This was actually a way how many people can make money doing mods e.g. be paid for what they love doing.  but hey, everybody thought that it's only for valve's pockets.

I was actually happy for such thing.

 

[MrDynamicMan]

They didn't do anything wrong!!! They wanted to help mod devs in a way and well people didn't want it so they removed it.

Except valve/Bethesda took 75% for doing nothing, and only paid the modern after they had made $400 of cash

[TheMidnightNarwhal]

Except valve/Bethesda took 75% for doing nothing, and only paid the modern after they had made $400 of cash

And they listened to us and removed it.

[TheKDub]

greedy. ..  yea.

This was actually a way how many people can make money doing mods e.g. be paid for what they love doing.  but hey, everybody thought that it's only for valve's pockets.

I was actually happy for such thing.

 

 

The idea in itself is kinda crappy, especially for mods as not all mods will work together, and what if you want to add another mod that isn't compatible with a paid mod you got? then what? you would have to remove the paid mod and let it sit there, not being used, making it so you essentially wasted your money on it.

 

What I really didn't like about it was the amount that the mod creator received, I believe that steam got 25% of it, Bethesda got 45%, and the mod creator got the remaining 30%.

Bethesda should get like 5% if any of it, we already paid for the damn game, we don't need to be paying them for mods that they didn't even contribute to.

[Roddy189]

Valve, Bethesda AND the modders should receive something. But not at the ratio that was agreed. If Bethesda had done everything it could to fully cater for pc then a lot of mods wouldn't have been needed. A donation button or even a paywall would of been fine but 25% for the person doing the work isn't exactly fair.

Also I get the feeling that if this was done on a game other than skyrim there wouldn't of been so much outrage. Maybe a new game to ty it on would of been a better decision?

Maybe if Bethesda promised to put time and effort into optimising mods it'd be ok for a higher cut?

Ah well, at least they listened and have showed respect to their fan base.

[MrDynamicMan]

And they listened to us and removed it.

I know, but they did do something wrong

[Humbug]

You mean the hard working modders who put more effort into their creations than Bethesda does? Yea, they deserve the money for their work, not Bethesda.

Bethesda created skyrim. They deserved a significant portion. Also as Linus said it's an excellent recurring revenue source for some devs who otherwise only release big AAA single player games and have to otherwise wait for their next big game and all the associated risks. This can also encourage more devs in turn to support nodding...

[Sauron]

Yeah it may have cost Valve $1million, But they raised $10million in the two days alone from paid mods. Now they know HOW much they can make, dont be fooled into thinking they wont keep this idea going.

 

read again, it says 10K

[Albatross]

Bethesda created skyrim. They deserved a significant portion. Also as Linus said it's an excellent recurring revenue source for some devs who otherwise only release big AAA single player games and have to otherwise wait for their next big game and all the associated risks. This can also encourage more devs in turn to support nodding...

 

Okay, so what if they did though? Microsoft created Office, does that entitle them to any money earned through their customers' efforts? No. They never said anything about charging people for mods when the game first came out, and they shouldn't just throw it on people now. If they wanted a piece of other people's cash for doing nothing they should have made that a part of the deal at the get go.

[Victorious Secret]

Okay, so what if they did though? Microsoft created Office, does that entitle them to any money earned through their customers' efforts? No. They never said anything about charging people for mods when the game first came out, and they shouldn't just throw it on people now. If they wanted a piece of other people's cash for doing nothing they should have made that a part of the deal at the get go.

 

Exactly. 

 

MS created Office, Windows and a lot of stuff. Do they ask me for money when I used Office to make my thesis which got me my job? nope. Do they ask developers who make apps for Windows for a percentage because they made Windows? Nope. 

 

So why in the fuck do developers think they are entitled a piece of the pie? Especially in Skyrim. Modders are fixing their broken ass game (something they were too lazy or too incompetent to do) and now they have the gall to charge people for said mods that actually make the game properly playable? 

And people are defending this?? Amazing. 

[Blackie Sheen]

Yeah it may have cost Valve $1million, But they raised $10million in the two days alone from paid mods. Now they know HOW much they can make, dont be fooled into thinking they wont keep this idea going.

“So far the paid mods have generated $10K total.". Did you read the OP?

[Colonel_Gerdauf]

None of the people supporting "just the idea" seem to understand the scale of repercussions involved with putting an upfront price tag to a mod. They were free since its inception, and the donation systems worked just fine.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[zappian]

None of the people supporting "just the idea" seem to understand the scale of repercussions involved with putting an upfront price tag to a mod. They were free since its inception, and the donation systems worked just fine.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

This.

The introduction of the paid mods system just tear a big hole in the community that will take some time to heal now.

Its like trying to charge for fan fiction , this idea makes very little sense and it just did more harm than good.

[Victorious Secret]

None of the people supporting "just the idea" seem to understand the scale of repercussions involved with putting an upfront price tag to a mod. They were free since its inception, and the donation systems worked just fine.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

What about the guys behind SkyUI who happily mocked their users over the anger for paid mods? now they get to pull a 180 and beg for those people to come back. 

 

We have a subreddit for pirating mods now. PIRATING MODS. Valve broke PC gaming harder than anyone else has ever attempted. 

[dalekphalm]

What about the guys behind SkyUI who happily mocked their users over the anger for paid mods? now they get to pull a 180 and beg for those people to come back. 

 

We have a subreddit for pirating mods now. PIRATING MODS. Valve broke PC gaming harder than anyone else has ever attempted. 

Yeah I think a voluntary tip jar would have been a much better solution.

 

I fully agree with the idea of a Mod Maker being able to live off revenue for their creations (A job is a job, whether it's Youtube, Mod making, or flipping burgers - if you get paid, it's a job).

 

But putting mods behind a paywall was simply a PR fuckup of BIBLICAL proportions. It backfired hard for Valve. But I think many people will overlook that, and will still love Valve anyway.

[Victorious Secret]

Yeah I think a voluntary tip jar would have been a much better solution.

 

I fully agree with the idea of a Mod Maker being able to live off revenue for their creations (A job is a job, whether it's Youtube, Mod making, or flipping burgers - if you get paid, it's a job).

 

But putting mods behind a paywall was simply a PR fuckup of BIBLICAL proportions. It backfired hard for Valve. But I think many people will overlook that, and will still love Valve anyway.

 

People on this forum still say "oh it was just Beth, Valve followed along, Valve listened to us they are a great company"

Kinda pathetic. 

 

Beth even said that Valve approached THEM with the idea, and why wouldn't they? Valves entire business for the last half decade has been F2P, DLC, micro transactions and other crap. Yet people turn a blind eye. 

[dalekphalm]

People on this forum still say "oh it was just Beth, Valve followed along, Valve listened to us they are a great company"

Kinda pathetic. 

 

Beth even said that Valve approached THEM with the idea, and why wouldn't they? Valves entire business for the last half decade has been F2P, DLC, micro transactions and other crap. Yet people turn a blind eye. 

Yeah, while Bethesda might be somewhat implicit in this, why would they say no when Valve, a monolith in PC gaming goes up to them and says

 

"Good day Bethesda. How would you like to earn bucket loads of money with no effort at all?"

 

Bethesda replies "Why a good day to you, good sir." *tips hat* "Yes, yes that sounds quite nice. Shall we discuss it over a cup of tea?"

 

OF COURSE Bethesda would be on board. They get to monetize their game framework and give a legal "OKAY" to the somewhat grey area of user modding.

 

When it comes down to it, Bethesda and Valve are COMPANIES. They want PROFIT. That takes precedence over all other concerns. They thought they could get away with it. They thought they could "sell" the idea to Gamers - they were wrong.

 

I still can't believe it's costing Valve $1M USD for a few days of over-saturated support emails. Holy fuck valve, create a proper support department already!

[MageTank]

Before I make a giant wall of text, I would like to note that I understand both sides to this argument, both for the companies involved and the modders/players that are at arms over this debacle. 

 

It is stated in Bethesda's Terms and Conditions that selling pay-per-use mods without their express written consent is against their copyright, and that you would be liable for any criminal damage it causes their company. I get that. They spent their resources to make the game, why should someone else be able to release a texture pack and profit off of their previous work?

 

A modder cannot sell assets that do not belong to them. This is just how it is, and should be. However, I also see it from a modders point of view too. Skyrim in and of itself is often broken, and required third party mods to even be playable in the normal sense of the game. Are car mechanics not allowed to profit after fixing a broken vehicle that the manufacturer did not fix? 

 

I agree with others that a donation system for modders was and is the better solution for this, but i do not find the modders that want to be paid for their work to be at fault. It is understandable that if you can get paid for your work, why would you not take that offer? 

 

@dalekphalm pretty much hit the nail on the head with this one. " They get to monetize their game framework and give a legal "OKAY" to the somewhat grey area of user modding." 

 

What bothers me the most, is Zenimax's terms of service. "Any use, reproduction, modification or distribution of Services, including, but not limited to, Games, Content, Software, or any other intellectual property not expressly authorized by these Terms of Service or by an authorized representative of ZeniMax in writing is strictly prohibited."

 

Yet they include the means to activate mods at the very start of the game. Bethesda just recently updated their terms and conditions with this creation kit to coincide with the steam workshop fiasco: You may not cause or permit the sale or other commercial distribution or commercial exploitation (e.g., by renting, licensing, sublicensing, leasing, disseminating, uploading, downloading, transmitting, whether on a pay-per-play basis or otherwise) of any New Materials without the express prior written consent of an authorized representative of Bethesda Softworks.

 

Does this mean all mods created before this workshop agreement were illegal in Zenimax's eyes? If so, why did Zenimax and Bethesda allow the integration of these mods before this agreement took place? Hell, they even allow their online game to be modded too. 

 

This leads me to my conclusion on this topic. Should a modder be able to sell his mods without permission from the parent company or its subsidiaries? No. Should you be allowed to pay your hard earned money to support someone that creates something that brings you enjoyment through donations and tips? Yes. There are no legal issues with you giving your money away to somebody, and neither Bethesda or Zenimax can say otherwise if you choose to do so. 

 

People are blaming valve for "breaking the modding community" but nobody understands that the modders were not forced to use this platform. The people that put their mods on the workshop did so because they felt they should earn money for their work. Steam and Bethesda offered a means for them to earn money, but those means had a price. It is strictly business people, from both sides of that argument. The modders wanted paid, Bethesda wanted paid, and Valve wanted paid. In the end, everyone lost.