Posted October 22, 2023 I would like to see the Community Standards modified to explicitly call out whether recommendation of grey market keys/games/windows licenses/etc is allowed. The current Community Standards are written as such: Quote Piracy, Hacking, and other Illegal Activities Discussion on how to engage in piracy is not allowed. Redistribution of copyrighted material, including links to third party hosting sites, is not permitted. Discussion of piracy in general is acceptable (e.g. "Game X becomes the most pirated game ever"). Hackintosh discussion is permitted. Discussion on engaging in hacking or cracking is not allowed, including: Bypassing security features, restrictions, or filters (including parental filters, school restrictions, or workplace monitoring), including on your own device. Any illegal content or discussion on engaging in illegal activities is not permitted. Canadian law applies, as well as any jurisdictions that apply to you. The reason I would like this to be mentioned, whether allowed or not, is because as you could expect, grey market is a grey area. Just because something is grey market doesn't mean that it is necessarily illegal. However, there are times when grey market keys are acquired in an illegal manner. I would just like some clarification. My PC Specs: (expand to view) Main Gaming Machine CPU: Intel Core i7-10700K - OC to 5 GHz All Cores CPU Cooler: Corsair iCUE H115i RGB Pro XT (Front Mounted AIO) Motherboard: Asus TUF GAMING Z490-PLUS (WI-FI) Memory: Corsair Vengeance LPX 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3600 Storage: Intel 665p 1 TB M.2-2280 NVME SSD (x2) Video Card: Zotac RTX 3070 8 GB GAMING Twin Edge OC Power Supply: Corsair RM850 850W Case: Corsair 4000D Airflow Case Fan 120mm: Noctua F12 PWM 54.97 CFM 120 mm (x1) Case Fan 140mm: Noctua A14 PWM 82.5 CFM 140 mm (x4) Monitor Main: Asus VG278QR 27.0" 1920x1080 165 Hz Monitor Vertical: Asus VA27EHE 27.0" 1920x1080 75 Hz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 22, 2023 Fairly simple really, if its grey market (there in itself is rather self-explanatory grey area) then it's not directly msrp sold item. You may discuss and even call by name, what you cannot do is is link a grey market site. If its not sold at msrp then it is grey and cannot be shared. Simple. This is covered in the first sub-bullet point. COMMUNITY STANDARDS | TECH NEWS POSTING GUIDELINES | FORUM STAFF LTT Folding Users Tips, Tricks and FAQ | F@H & BOINC Badge Request | F@H Contribution | My Rig | Project Steamroller I am a Moderator, but I am fallible. Discuss or debate with me as you will but please do not argue with me as that will get us nowhere. Spoiler † † † Character is like a Tree and Reputation like its Shadow. The Shadow is what we think of it; The Tree is the Real thing. ~ Abraham Lincoln Reputation is a Lifetime to create but seconds to destroy. You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. ~ Winston Churchill Docendo discimus - "to teach is to learn" † CHRISTIAN MEMBER † Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 22, 2023 We don't condone it, but can't really not allow it either. Ebay and other 2nd hand markets are grey markets also (original maker doesn't get anything, no taxes are paid = by definition grey markets). So the line really is in linking to ads. I for one aren't too tight about linking to site itself. But for piracy rules, telling someone "you can get it for free" is remove-worthy. ^^^^ That's my post ^^^^ <-- This is me --- That's your scrollbar --> vvvv Who's there? vvvv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 22, 2023 3 hours ago, LogicalDrm said: Ebay (no taxes are paid) eBay collects sales tax in most US states which have sales tax, fyi. https://www.ebay.com/help/buying/paying-items/paying-tax-ebay-purchases.html?id=4771#section3 And seems to collect tax in other world areas where it's required based on shipping address or purchaser address on file. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 22, 2023 17 minutes ago, Bitter said: eBay collects sales tax in most US states which have sales tax, fyi. https://www.ebay.com/help/buying/paying-items/paying-tax-ebay-purchases.html?id=4771#section3 And seems to collect tax in other world areas where it's required based on shipping address or purchaser address on file. Well, more you know. But did you know eBay is only one of the vast number of such platforms? And only used as example since its is among the first globally known of the type? Bit sarcasm, but I hope you did get my point. Besides, you only countered one of two reasons eBay is used as example. ^^^^ That's my post ^^^^ <-- This is me --- That's your scrollbar --> vvvv Who's there? vvvv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 22, 2023 1 hour ago, LogicalDrm said: Well, more you know. But did you know eBay is only one of the vast number of such platforms? And only used as example since its is among the first globally known of the type? Bit sarcasm, but I hope you did get my point. Besides, you only countered one of two reasons eBay is used as example. Oh not arguing for or against anything, just didn't know if most knew. #factoftheday? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 22, 2023 7 minutes ago, Bitter said: Oh not arguing for or against anything, just didn't know if most knew. #factoftheday? Ok, sorry. I assume its some sort of extra sales tax for the vendors then. Otherwise I don't know whats the point. Here, unless your yearly margin is over 10k, there's no tax on 2nd hand sales. Sites and platforms take small fee which would be counted as advertising only. ^^^^ That's my post ^^^^ <-- This is me --- That's your scrollbar --> vvvv Who's there? vvvv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 22, 2023 11 hours ago, SansVarnic said: Fairly simple really, if its grey market (there in itself is rather self-explanatory grey area) then it's not directly msrp sold item. You may discuss and even call by name, what you cannot do is is link a grey market site. If its not sold at msrp then it is grey and cannot be shared. Simple. This is covered in the first sub-bullet point. So to be clear, I can say "You can get Windows 11 cheaper on a website called cdkeys" but I can't "Here is a link www.example.example" where windows is only 16 bucks My Folding Stats - Join the fight against COVID-19 with FOLDING! - If someone has helped you out on the forum don't forget to give them a reaction to say thank you! The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing. - Socrates Please put as much effort into your question as you expect me to put into answering it. CPU Ryzen 9 5950X Motherboard Gigabyte Aorus GA-AX370-GAMING 5 RAM 32GB DDR4 3200 GPU Inno3D 4070 Ti Case Cooler Master - MasterCase H500P Storage Western Digital Black 250GB, Seagate BarraCuda 1TB x2 PSU EVGA Supernova 1000w Display(s) Lenovo L29w-30 29 Inch UltraWide Full HD, BenQ - XL2430(portrait), Dell P2311Hb(portrait) Cooling MasterLiquid Lite 240 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 22, 2023 I agree. I buy accounts off of g2g almost every week for the purpose of reusing them to play on servers I'm falsely banned from off of garrys mod and it is a life saver. They should be allowed to be spoken about and advertised here to an extent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 22, 2023 37 minutes ago, randy123 said: I buy accounts off of g2g almost every week for the purpose of reusing them to play on servers I'm falsely banned from off of garrys mod you get "falsely" banned off gmod servers on a weekly basis? on topic: i feel like we "as a community" should be a healthy amount of weary about what i'll refer to as "key marketplaces". you never really know where the key you bought came from, if the key was sold to multiple people, and if the party in control of honouring these license keys will ever shut them down (like has happened with keys that were gotten trough fraud in the past) in this way the "kinguin and g2a exist" mentions are IMO fine, but any user going there "by our recommendation" should have at least some level of "you're on your own here" just to express that this really is a wild west type of situation where truly anything goes, and you're left to a honour system between anonymous individuals. i suppose my viewpoint is that it should be "an edge case in the CS", more than the CS acounting for it.. because if the CS specificly mentions grey market keys, i believe the only reasonable thing to do is ban linking to sellers of grey market keys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 22, 2023 1 hour ago, manikyath said: you get "falsely" banned off gmod servers on a weekly basis? Yes, RP servers are brutal for accusations of child abuse. 1 hour ago, manikyath said: on topic: i feel like we "as a community" should be a healthy amount of weary about what i'll refer to as "key marketplaces". you never really know where the key you bought came from, if the key was sold to multiple people, and if the party in control of honouring these license keys will ever shut them down (like has happened with keys that were gotten trough fraud in the past) in this way the "kinguin and g2a exist" mentions are IMO fine, but any user going there "by our recommendation" should have at least some level of "you're on your own here" just to express that this really is a wild west type of situation where truly anything goes, and you're left to a honour system between anonymous individuals. i suppose my viewpoint is that it should be "an edge case in the CS", more than the CS acounting for it.. because if the CS specificly mentions grey market keys, i believe the only reasonable thing to do is ban linking to sellers of grey market keys. If anything we should be supporting kinguin or g2a over regular marketplaces. Microsoft scams millions of people a year making them buy a windows key for 100$ when you can get one for 10$ anywhere else. All my businesses I've instructed my managers to ONLY buy from key sites and we have saved hundreds of thousands over the past few years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 22, 2023 13 minutes ago, randy123 said: If anything we should be supporting kinguin or g2a over regular marketplaces. you've got this so backwards i need to slice it up into separated replies... 14 minutes ago, randy123 said: Microsoft scams millions of people a year making them buy a windows key for 100$ when you can get one for 10$ anywhere else. that's not a scam, that is microsoft setting the price of their product at 100 dollars, it is their product so they can determine the price. wether 100 dollars is fair or not is a matter of opinion and not applicable here. 15 minutes ago, randy123 said: All my businesses I've instructed my managers to ONLY buy from key sites and we have saved hundreds of thousands over the past few years assuming these are devices you are selling to customers on the premise they contain a valid licensed installation of windows.. you're doing the scam here. you're actively breaking the EULA for a piece of software you're providing to customers, in their understanding they get a full and valid licensed version, but it is essentially a version that only exists because microsoft cant be arsed to fight grey market key sales. which, by the way, volume licensing exists, and if you've saved hundreds of thousand of dollars, that's thousands of licenses.. you're well into volume licensing terretory. please do share which company this is, so i can avoid you like the plague, because if you're willing to grey market the license you sell to your customers, i dont want to know what else you'll do to line your own pockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 22, 2023 I guess I could ask here. I got a 10 retail key from the place discussed here. https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/is-this-genuine-windows-10-pro/7720fe51-6a57-4c8e-a187-a6fae86d341b Is that grey market? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 22, 2023 24 minutes ago, manikyath said: that's not a scam, that is microsoft setting the price of their product at 100 dollars, it is their product so they can determine the price. wether 100 dollars is fair or not is a matter of opinion and not applicable here. it is 100% a scam if I can go on another site and buy it for 10% of the price they are selling it for. They are exploiting people who dont know these key sites exist and big box stores like Bestbuy lie to millions of people a year saying "Oh sorry, the ONLY way to get Windows activated is pay us 100$!" It's exploitation of the elderly 26 minutes ago, manikyath said: assuming these are devices you are selling to customers on the premise they contain a valid licensed installation of windows.. you're doing the scam here. you're actively breaking the EULA for a piece of software you're providing to customers, in their understanding they get a full and valid licensed version Screw the EULA. They cant stop the free market, they have no power over how customers and businesses activate their version of windows. I'm not letting my business be controlled by Bill gates and his abuse of the American people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 22, 2023 3 minutes ago, randy123 said: I'm not letting my business be controlled by Bill gates and his abuse of the American people Uhhmmm, how do I break this to you… "A high ideal missed by a little, is far better than low ideal that is achievable, yet far less effective" If you think I'm wrong, correct me. If I've offended you in some way tell me what it is and how I can correct it. I want to learn, and along the way one can make mistakes; Being wrong helps you learn what's right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 22, 2023 Just now, randy123 said: it is 100% a scam if I can go on another site and buy it for 10% of the price they are selling it for. They are exploiting people who dont know these key sites exist and big box stores like Bestbuy lie to millions of people a year saying "Oh sorry, the ONLY way to get Windows activated is pay us 100$!" It's exploitation of the elderly but, the only way to get a license is from microsoft. if you find a license for 10% of that price *something* has gone afoot with that key. what is that something? well.. it can be a lot, brief set of examples: - selling a single key multiple times (because activation will only get wonky after a few actvations) - selling GVLK keys separately, which is directly against the license agreement - selling keys fished off scrapped OEM desktops - and in fact yes.. using software licenses to launder money. software licenses are apparently the modern day equivalent of a shady laundromat. it's essentially like saying apple is scamming you charging 1000 bucks for an iphone when shoplifters will sell a new in box iphone for half that on ebay.. which again, is a practisce that happens. you can choose to ignore this, but that doesnt change that two wrongs doesnt make a right, and you're still being extremely dishonest to your customers. and again.. opinion on the matter is separate from what is correct to do as a business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 22, 2023 1 minute ago, manikyath said: if you find a license for 10% of that price *something* has gone afoot with that key I've personally done hundreds of key activations with Kinguin keys and never had any issues. My businesses have done tens of thousands, and as far as I've heard, I've heard no issues from the managers on the policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 22, 2023 2 minutes ago, randy123 said: I've personally done hundreds of key activations with Kinguin keys and never had any issues. My businesses have done tens of thousands, and as far as I've heard, I've heard no issues from the managers on the policy. i'm not saying the keys dont work, i'm saying the means trough which they got so cheap are not legitimate. what you're essentially doing is lining some crook's wallet to feel good about yourself, only relying on the exceptionally poor license key management on microsoft's part. if this practisce were to come to light to the right people, *you* are on the hook for these hundreds of thousands of dollars, by the way. likewise, you'd most likely not hear any complaints from pirating every windows install that leaves your business, why pay at all if you dont give a hoot about doing things above board anyways? it's not about it working, it's about your business actively participating in something that could be seen as false advertising to your customers, and could be seen as (a form of theft this falls under, i think?) by microsoft. i'd also wager a guess that the feds would love this one, especially since you explain this is company policy.. as well as mentioning in the other thread that it's company policty over there to tell customers the "boys" will be going trough your private material anyways. again.. if you're so confident about this, please do post which business this is which.. by the way, i've done first-line IT support for 6 years, the place i worked at had an EXTREMELY strict privacy policy, and even slight skirting of the rules that didnt even come near customers' actual privacy were handled very strictly. and the idea that a system from our hand would be running a potential grey-market key would have been unthinkable, borderline "fired on the spot" level of bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 22, 2023 Key reseller websites are currently not prohibited by the community standards. You are allowed to link to the website. The Hot Deals guidelines, which I believe is the only guidelines that addresses it, mentions that links to such sites are permitted. The community standards still apply; no advertising your own site/sales, no affiliate/referral links. Some specific key reseller websites may be blocked due to problems associated with spam. While they're not prohibited, they're also not something we want to encourage either. Use common sense if you are going to post them and don't get offended if you suggest grey market sites to somebody and they tell you they're sketchy or they don't want to use them. The Community Standards are subject to change. Activators, cracks, etc are strictly prohibited. CPU: Intel i7 6700k | Motherboard: Gigabyte Z170x Gaming 5 | RAM: 2x16GB 3000MHz Corsair Vengeance LPX | GPU: Gigabyte Aorus GTX 1080ti | PSU: Corsair RM750x (2018) | Case: BeQuiet SilentBase 800 | Cooler: Arctic Freezer 34 eSports | SSD: Samsung 970 Evo 500GB + Samsung 840 500GB + Crucial MX500 2TB | Monitor: Acer Predator XB271HU + Samsung BX2450 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 22, 2023 1 hour ago, Bitter said: I guess I could ask here. I got a 10 retail key from the place discussed here. https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/is-this-genuine-windows-10-pro/7720fe51-6a57-4c8e-a187-a6fae86d341b Is that grey market? That's tough one. I would say that's fine, but still might remove direct links to ads. The site and affiliation plus how store Is run all look pretty sketchy. Which is bit sad to see from brand that was the top of the PC space on 90s and 00s. ^^^^ That's my post ^^^^ <-- This is me --- That's your scrollbar --> vvvv Who's there? vvvv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 22, 2023 6 minutes ago, LogicalDrm said: That's tough one. I would say that's fine, but still might remove direct links to ads. The site and affiliation plus how store Is run all look pretty sketchy. Which is bit sad to see from brand that was the top of the PC space on 90s and 00s. How about harvesting keys from old motherboards or buying old hardware and using the embedded key? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 22, 2023 25 minutes ago, manikyath said: i'm not saying the keys dont work, i'm saying the means trough which they got so cheap are not legitimate. what you're essentially doing is lining some crook's wallet to feel good about yourself, only relying on the exceptionally poor license key management on microsoft's part. if this practisce were to come to light to the right people, *you* are on the hook for these hundreds of thousands of dollars, by the way. What my businesses do are protected by the Free Market (God bless it) of my states legislature, I am not in a communist state like California that is controlled by Big Tech. I even know a few local politicians so I'm well in hand. 28 minutes ago, manikyath said: actively participating in something that could be seen as false advertising to your customers, and could be seen as (a form of theft this falls under, i think?) by microsoft. It's not false advertising. These are real windows keys. 51 minutes ago, manikyath said: i've done first-line IT support for 6 years, the place i worked at had an EXTREMELY strict privacy policy, and even slight skirting of the rules that didnt even come near customers' actual privacy were handled very strictly. and the idea that a system from our hand would be running a potential grey-market key would have been unthinkable, borderline "fired on the spot" level of bad. Sounds like those businesses you worked for did not know how to capitalize on the market Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 22, 2023 4 minutes ago, randy123 said: It's not false advertising. These are real windows keys. they are real keys, in the same way that smuggling hardware without paying import duties is real hardware. you are arguing beside my point. i can try to keep making analogies, but i'm pretty sure they're all going WAY over your head. 6 minutes ago, randy123 said: Sounds like those businesses you worked for did not know how to capitalize on the market how about.. both places i worked for are VERY successful, because as it turns out the customers with the most cash to spend prefer to go for businesses that dont risk licensing disputes to save 90 bucks on a $2k purchase. also.. i do need to address this: 10 minutes ago, randy123 said: I am not in a communist state like California that is controlled by Big Tech. I even know a few local politicians so I'm well in hand. none of this has to do with state law, this has to do with EULA's and moral choices, at which point microsoft theoretically has every right to block every key you've ever sold to any of your customers, and potentially launch a civil suit against you for damages, which as you've shared before is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. wether they're in the right or not in suing for damages is largely irrelevant, because you as a business should not value saving a bit of money on each sale over the potential for a huge massive lawsuit.. in which essentially your customers are the victim, no matter the outcome, because they end up with a breach of the EULA they had no part in. what i'm saying is.. it's a matter of what is morally right to do. and even if you consider microsoft's choices to be morally wrong, making your own morally wrong choices dont make this a right. if you're just buying a shady key for yourself to save a buck.. go right ahead, but you should NEVER, EVER sell something as a business that has potentially questionable origins. on which i should note.. if it turns out those keys you bought on the grey market originate from stolen credit cards.. you may be facing charges for posession of stolen goods, or heck, perhaps if some FBI investigator finds a computer shop buying TONS of keys from this origin.. they may think you're laundering money for a crime rink. no one's gonna start a trial over one singular license key.. but when we're -again- potentially talking 6 figures.. that is a risk you should not be fine with if you have an ounce of integrity in your soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 23, 2023 The thing with grey markets is that they borderline legal/illegal. A PC Enthusiast since 2011 AMD Ryzen 7 5700X@4.65GHz | GIGABYTE GTX 1660 GAMING OC @ Core 2085MHz Memory 5000MHz Cinebench R23: 15669cb | Unigine Superposition 1080p Extreme: 3566 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted October 23, 2023 6 hours ago, Bitter said: How about harvesting keys from old motherboards or buying old hardware and using the embedded key? And that's the reason why we don't completely ban suggesting those sites. Because that's proven in court to be legal. So at the moment, direct links to ads is the line. There are also couple known sites which pretend to be abandonware or just mirror, but are actually sharing cracked copies or the ones with KMS activation. ^^^^ That's my post ^^^^ <-- This is me --- That's your scrollbar --> vvvv Who's there? vvvv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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