Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[perryckd]

Just now, throwawayManMode said:

Instead of attacking GN you should be trying to get Linus to address the issues identified in the video.

LTT's issues are completely independent of any other company. Or are you just here to sling mud?

 

annnd  the only real issue is Guerillanexus did not ethically clarify with LMG first, about the current situation with Billet Labs. typical guerilla attacks...

[Tigerbomb8]

8 minutes ago, laundmo said:

i find it pretty damn ironic how GN made a blatantly obvious factual mistake in a vido criticising LTT for, mostly, obvious mistakes.

 

at around 20:00 GN criticised a TechQuickie for claiming the 5600x3d had 99mb cache. He did this by showing the specsheet for the 5600x. that's just full on a different CPU. the x3d has 99mb cache between L2 and L3.

You need to go back and use your ear holes correctly.

Stever states "Within the review, LGM initially states correct 5600x3dspecs but incorrect 5600x cache specs.". Which is why they show the specs for the 5600x

[Neroon]

8 minutes ago, VeryScary said:

Yeah, that's not even close to being the same 

 

Also did you watch the video and his reasoning behind why it wasn't a conflict? 

Yes, yes it is the same. In both case they have an invested interest in the success of the company. So anything that might influence it negatively, creates a bias, even a very small one.

 

I didn't, I have now. It's completely irrelevant. Not only because it still impacts how he looks at products, but the second video is from a direct competitor, and a large portion of the video is about opening up the laptop etc, which in this case didn't go so well. That video I had seen btw.

[VeryScary]

7 minutes ago, Empyreal said:

 

What a weak ass argument. I literally proved you wrong with those videos and you react by burying your head in the sand. It's akin to a kid covering his ears and shouting that you can't hear anything. What a sore loser.

He didn't even declare he was a framework investor in these 2 videos.

 

 

Lol, how did you prove me wrong? By just searching youtube for videos with Linus and a laptop without actually watching the the video.

 

If the argument is about the conflict of interest because he invested in a laptop company and in the video he clearly states "hey, in the interest of transparency I'm involved in this other laptop company", that removes the conflict of interest. If you're interested in buying that laptop you either say I still trust this guy or you decide to not trust him and look for information on another channel. 

[AamirA]

The big thing I have issue with is how Linus still bends over backwards to please the algorithm. The rushed content, and the willingness to leave a flawed review up because taking it down really hurts it's performance. It's fine to make some mistakes, but not fixing them immediately in the right way is what I have a problem with. I think there's a reson why Linus didn't mention this at all (I think), the answer of "it makes more money" sounds bad.

[atxcyclist]

7 minutes ago, MotherboardsInThePark said:

If you can't trust your employees, why did you hire them?

You’re arguing against time-tracking for employees? Especially in situations where employees deal in contracts with clients/companies, there has to be a way to chart time spent on each client/company. 
 

 

[Shlouski]

1 hour ago, Dom1252 said:

my point is, if he wanted to make things right, he would admit mistakes somewhere where people are going to notice this

 

How exactly at to what end?

 

Do you feel like he needs to suffer for his mistakes, do you need revenge?

 

His response to mistakes have been the same as his peers, god knows he's made more of them. i

 

In fact the worst mistake I've seen so far has been made by Gamers Nexus, he seems to have forgotten about his misprinted modmats that could lead to hardware damage and fires. 

 

Again correction are cited on the videos affected on the main channel, not much more he can do than this.

[gunnarre]

When the errors are bad enough to invalidate the conclusions, it warrants re-making or unpublishing the video. For minor mistakes, an asterisk is enough.

3 hours ago, maplepants said:

"I don't have to verify the story, because it was *only* based on public statements" is pretty funny.

The story is verified. The question here if there is a journalistic right to reply issue here, and there isn't one since the story is based on LMG's own public statements and admitted errors - not new allegations or claims from third parties. If you think it's silly that it was even brought up, that's all on Linus or whoever helped him draft his reply in this thread.

[joaopt]

forget Steve, the problem isn't Steve, the problem is clearly LMG and Linus in particular. The messenger shouldn't be shot no matter how inconvenient the message is

 

come on you can do better then this. Linus and the LTT fans.

[Wol0]

15 minutes ago, Srius1 said:

Says the dude who made an account here just to flame the people running it…echo Chamber is you fake fans coming out with pitchforks acting holier than thou. IT MAKES ME SICK . Talk about bandwagon and echo chamber…take a look in the mirror.

I’d argue that people who come here to complain care more LTT than the *snickers* yes people.

 

If people wanted LTT (the company, not the person/people) to die in a furious blaze of glory, then simply doing nothing is the best that could be done.

 

Speaking of which: Hey, you guys remember Anker?

[Cosmic Emotion]

Just now, AamirA said:

The big thing I have issue with is how Linus still bends over backwards to please the algorithm. The rushed content, and the willingness to leave a flawed review up because taking it down really hurts it's performance. It's fine to make some mistakes, but not fixing them immediately in the right way is what I have a problem with. I think there's a reson why Linus didn't mention this at all (I think), the answer of "it makes more money" sounds bad.

 

It's normal for Linus to care about money. What is not normal is that at the same time he doesn't care about fans. He grew too big too quick imo and he has to learn some lessons before he can move on to the next stage. I really hope he can make it, but things are not looking good right now.

[NullPointerError]

To be honest, GN is right about the fanboyism in LTT, it's not better than Apple's

[MajorGLORY24]

16 hours ago, LinusTech said:

There won't be a big WAN Show segment about this or anything. Most of what I have to say, I've already said, and I've done so privately.

To Steve, I expressed my disappointment that he didn't go through proper journalistic practices in creating this piece. He has my email and number (along with numerous other members of our team) and could have asked me for context that may have proven to be valuable (like the fact that we didn't 'sell' the monoblock, but rather auctioned it for charity due to a miscommunication... AND the fact that while we haven't sent payment yet, we have already agreed to compensate Billet Labs for the cost of their prototype). There are other issues, but I've told him that I won't be drawn into a public sniping match over this and that I'll be continuing to move forward in good faith as part of 'Team Media'. When/if he's ready to do so again I'll be ready.

To my team (and my CEO's team, but realistically I was at the helm for all of these errors, so I need to own it), I stressed the importance of diligence in our work because there are so many eyes on us. We are going through some growing pains - we've been very public about them in the interest of transparency - and it's clear we have some work to do on internal processes and communication. We have already been doing a lot of work internally to clean up our processes, but these things take time. Rome wasn't built in a day, but that's no excuse for sloppiness.

Now, for my community, all I can say is the same things I always say. We know that we're not perfect. We wear our imperfection on our sleeves in the interest of ensuring that we stay accountable to you. But it's sad and unfortunate when this transparency gets warped into a bad thing. The Labs team is hard at work hard creating processes and tools to generate data that will benefit all consumers - a work in progress that is very much not done and that we've communicated needs to be treated as such. Do we have notes under some videos? Yes. Is it because we are striving for transparency/improvement? Yeah... What we're doing hasn't been in many years, if ever.. and we would make a much larger correction if the circumstances merited it. Listing the wrong amount of cache on a table for a CPU review is sloppy, but given that our conclusions are drawn based on our testing, not the spec sheet, it doesn't materially change the recommendation. That doesn't mean these things don't matter. We've set KPIs for our writing/labs team around accuracy, and we are continually installing new checks and balances to ensure that things continue to get better. If you haven't seen the improvement, frankly I wonder if you're really looking for it... The thoroughness that we managed on our last handful of GPU videos is getting really incredible given the limited time we have for these embargoes. I'm REALLY excited about what the future will hold.

 

With all of that said, I still disagree that the Billet Labs video (not the situation with the return, which I've already addressed above) is an 'accuracy' issue. It's more like I just read the room wrong. We COULD have re-tested it with perfect accuracy, but to do so PROPERLY - accounting for which cases it could be installed in (none) and which radiators it would be plumbed with (again... mystery) would have been impossible... and also didn't affect the conclusion of the video... OR SO I THOUGHT...

 

I wanted to evaluate it as a product, and as a product, IF it could manage to compete with the temperatures of the highest end blocks on the planet, it still wouldn't make sense to buy... so from my point of view, re-testing it and finding out that yes, it did in fact run cooler made no difference to the conclusion, so it didn't really make a difference.

 

Adam and I were talking about this today. He advocated for re-testing it regardless of how non-viable it was as a product at the time and I think he expressed really well today why it mattered. It was like making a video about a supercar. It doesn't mater if no one watching will buy it. They just wanna see it rip.  I missed that, but it wasn't because I didn't care about the consumer.. it was because I was so focused on how this product impacted a potential buyer. Either way, clearly my bad, but my intention was never to harm Billet Labs. I specifically called out their incredible machining skills because I wanted to see them create something with a viable market for it and was hoping others would appreciate the fineness of the craftsmanship even if the product was impractical. I still hope they move forward building something else because they obviously have talent and I've watched countless niche water cooling vendors come and go. It's an astonishingly unforgiving market.

 

Either way, I'm sorry I got the community's priorities mixed-up on this one, and that we didn't show the Billet in the best light. Our intention wasn't to hurt anyone. We wanted no one to buy it (because it's an egregious waste of money no matter what temps it runs at) and we wanted Billet to make something marketable (so they can, y'know, eat).

 

With all of this in mind, it saddens me how quickly the pitchforks were raised over this. It also comes across a touch hypocritical when some basic due diligence could have helped clarify much of it. I have a LONG history of meeting issues head on and I've never been afraid to answer questions, which lands me in hot water regularly, but helps keep me in tune with my peers and with the community. The only reason I can think of not to ask me is because my honest response might be inconvenient. 

 

We can test that... with this post. Will the "It was a mistake (a bad one, but a mistake) and they're taking care of it" reality manage to have the same reach? Let's see if anyone actually wants to know what happened. I hope so, but it's been disheartening seeing how many people were willing to jump on us here. Believe it or not, I'm a real person and so is the rest of my team. We are trying our best, and if what we were doing was easy, everyone would do it. Today sucks.

 

Thanks for reading this.

Stop taking this personally and just fix your processes, lol. You claim to call it as you see it, but cower/shake with rage when called out. Also get you're a person but like you're an influencial person who needs to be correct if you're playing the "advocate/adviser." Also if you had listened to your staff asking for more time you might have avoided this entirely. Empower your people to do the right thing and 99.9% of the time things will be great. That goes for most businesses if you hired the right people

[doom969]

16 hours ago, LinusTech said:

To Steve, I expressed my disappointment that he didn't go through proper journalistic practices in creating this piece. He has my email and number (along with numerous other members of our team) and could have asked me for context that may have proven to be valuable (like the fact that we didn't 'sell' the monoblock, but rather auctioned it for charity due to a miscommunication... AND the fact that while we haven't sent payment yet, we have already agreed to compensate Billet Labs for the cost of their prototype). There are other issues, but I've told him that I won't be drawn into a public sniping match over this and that I'll be continuing to move forward in good faith as part of 'Team Media'. When/if he's ready to do so again I'll be ready.

That is at the root of the problem though, isnt it ? Did you contact Billet for comment and context even if you certainly have their contact info ? Why would you expect Steve to contact you for context ? So you can explain why he shouldnt report on it because he knows you ? What does context change ? Steve only stated facts, it is not about context.

 

This is the root of the problem imo : Linux olds other companies and other corporation to a different standard than he holds his own. Be it about ethical issues, dilligence, corporate ties, warranties (trust me bro). The brand of the channel has become embrace the jank, look how fun it is that we are unprepared and dont research or read manuals !

 

He acts like we shouldnt juge mistakes or hold them accountable to errors, poor research of flawed data, "because we are only human and we do our best for you guys, trust me bro !" but the truth is they are a 100 000 000$ valued company. That is, in fact, bigger than many of the company that produce the products they review. But the way they act, these companies should die if they make a mistake, and should be held to standard leagues above their own.

 

Also :

Quote

 I have a LONG history of meeting issues head on and I've never been afraid to answer questions

 

But I will not address this on wan show, answer questions, make a video or meet this issue head-on or answer questions.

 

And after all this, you call Steve's video hypocritical ?

 

hm, yeah ok.

 

The truth is, ltt is now mostly and online store and merch company, which is fine, but they need to stop grandstanding and pretend like they are serious about reviews and data.

 

[Empyreal]

Just now, VeryScary said:

Lol, how did you prove me wrong? By just searching youtube for videos with Linus and a laptop without actually watching the the video.

 

If the argument is about the conflict of interest because he invested in a laptop company and in the video he clearly states "hey, in the interest of transparency I'm involved in this other laptop company", that removes the conflict of interest. If you're interested in buying that laptop you either say I still trust this guy or you decide to not trust him and look for information on another channel. 

 

You're moving the goalpost:

 

10 hours ago, VeryScary said:

Hasn't he stopped reviewing laptops since then? When was the last time Linus himself did a laptop review? 

 

You challenged a user that Linus hasn't reviewed laptops since he invested in Framework, and I am proving to you he DID review laptops after he declared he was invested in Framework. Now you're shifting the goalpost to suit your narrative of "oh, as long as he disclose, it's alright to review laptops".

[VeryScary]

1 minute ago, Neroon said:

Yes, yes it is the same. In both case they have an invested interest in the success of the company. So anything that might influence it negatively, creates a bias, even a very small one.

 

I didn't, I have now. It's completely irrelevant. Not only because it still impacts how he looks at products, but the second video is from a direct competitor, and a large portion of the video is about opening up the laptop etc, which in this case didn't go so well.

That's like saying chromebook and Alienware are direct competitors.

 

I guess to some people all laptops are pretty much the same. Next time I'm looking for a laptop I'm going to save some cash and buy one of those leapfrog laptops.

[atxcyclist]

2 minutes ago, Wol0 said:

I’d argue that people who come here to complain care more LTT than the *snickers* yes people.

 

If people wanted LTT (the company, not the person/people) to die in a furious blaze of glory, then simply doing nothing is the best that could be done.

 

Speaking of which: Hey, you guys remember Anker?

Then you’re making a bad argument, because the people showing-up here to sling dirt will just leave after they’re done; They don’t care about LTT or the community, they’re just drama-seekers and trolls.

[AamirA]

Just now, NullPointerError said:

To be honest, GN is right about the fanboyism in LTT, it's not better than Apple's

And Linus just mentioned on the WAN show to not fanboy on them like people are doing to their favorite twitch streamer. Like, he better react to this community reaction correctly. I really worry, the internet's stability is really falling apart, twitter, reddit, lmg. I think the problem is really learning to take criticism.

[VeryScary]

1 minute ago, Empyreal said:

 

You're moving the goalpost:

 

 

You challenged a user that Linus hasn't reviewed laptops since he invested in Framework, and I am proving to you he DID review laptops after he declared he was invested in Framework. Now you're shifting the goalpost to suit your narrative of "oh, as long as he disclose, it's alright to review laptops".

I challenged a user or I asked a question? 

 

Keep reaching 

[Bunaryblitz]

Not sure Linus or anyone from the team will read this, but I wanted to give my $.02 (or whatever you call your crazy money up in the great white north )

 

 

I’ve watched Linus since the NCIX days and followed GN since it was only a website. I love both of your channels. 
 

With that said, Steve is in the right here. Your videos carry a LOT of weight and “Labs is a work in progress, we’re getting better” isn’t a valid excuse for some of the fuckups. ESPECIALLY the BilletLabs fiasco. Regardless of the product, you CHOSE to review it and REALLY hurt a small company with the logistics of the video. The finial opinion doesn’t even matter. If they don’t take you to court, you’re lucky. 
 

I want nothing more than to see you succeed (if for nothing more than keeping my wardrobe looking good; lttstore.com). But if you want to play with the best (GN) on their field, you have to compete at the same level. If labs isn’t ready, don’t use their data yet. If that means you’re losing money for a time, that’s the cost of doing business. 
 

For now, this video (and Linus’ response) have proven my “LTT for entertainment, GN for purchasing decisions” motto correct. I’ll still watch your videos with pleasure though and wish you nothing but good luck. 

[Dom1252]

6 minutes ago, Shlouski said:

How exactly at to what end?

Do you feel like he needs to suffer for his mistakes, do you need revenge?

His response to mistakes have been the same as his peers, god knows he's made more of them. i

what about in next video review of same product line? 

i mean if you butcher review of 4090 and you review 4080 or whatever next, you can mention there that you messed up the previous review 

instead of pretending that it never happened... and only fix the original video after enough people complain... without ever mentioning it anywhere else, so if someone watched it before the correction, they will never know there was a correction

[Kisai]

16 minutes ago, joeygreco1985 said:

 

Nope, time sheets are what keeps employers from getting free overtime out of their staff. Time sheets keep BOTH employer and employee honest, and thats the way it should be. 

That's a strong disagree.

 

A time sheet is for "factory work", so you always have X many people working on Y product to have Z output.

 

Timesheets should not exist for work that is specialized, because you aren't paying for their "time" you're paying for their expertise, and thus if one video editor takes 20 hours to do something, and another takes 10, you're not going to demand the 20 hour guy work like the 10 hour guy, nor are you going to try and find another 10 hour guy. At best, everyone agrees on a production pipeline that is more efficient by maybe cutting out "quality" steps that people don't notice or care about. But if you decide you'd rather have 10, 10 hour guys instead of 10, 20 hour guys to save money, you're in for a reckoning when stuff like this blows up, because perhaps 20-hour guys actually give a care about what the result is, and 10 hour guy just wants to get it out the door.

 

On the flip side of this. things like Grocery stores , have ZERO specializations except for Bakery, Deli and maybe if they still have a Photo department. Everyone is replaceable at the drop of a hat, which is why those stores only hire part time, because they know there is no lack-of-supply. Some grocery stores have gotten rid of their bakeries and replace them with stuff trucked in from somewhere else outside the city, where the bakery can be run like a factory for all their locations.

 

If you don't care about someone's experience, then why aren't you just hiring anyone for the position? The fact is, most businesses would rather poach someone with experience from a competitor than train someone to do the job.

[geokilla]

What's the point of making videos if you're going to give the wrong information to the public? Selling off someone else's property that you promised you were going to return to them? I'm disappointed in LTT. They used to make quality tech videos and now, they just care about uploading a video a day so they can continue to shove their merch down our throats and make that YouTube revenue. I hope Linus realizes his mistakes and his status as a tech creator. He needs to compensate Billet Labs. Money is chump change to him anyways as he's a multi-millionaire.

 

Also I unsubscribed. Cannot support this kind of behaviour.

[Caeradwyn]

Right. First things first:
The way GN went about this, was... Questionable. And Steve has a way of presenting content, that can come across as a bit arrogant and "high horsey". Gamers Nexus should also have gotten in touch with LMG before posting the video. It's only fair to allow them to present their side, although, that shouldn't prevent them from posting their concerns.

But, Linus isn't "one of the guys". He's not "just some random member of the wider public who loves computers". He's a businessman. He's somebody who has built up a business from basically nothing, to become one of the absolute biggest tech youtubers in the world. And I think that he sometimes forgets that this means that he's no longer "one of us". He's not part of this community, he's part of the media. He's adjacent to the computer industry. And so he will be under scrutiny just like other companies. When running a company, and especially a large company, there will always be a conflict between integrity and making money. And for us as consumers, integrity is what matters, not how much money these companies earn. And if they want our trust and respect, they have to earn it. They have to show they have integrity. And along with that, comes displaying quality over quantity. It requires showing that you're willing to prioritize quality of content and journalistic integrity over maximizing profits. If you can't do that, then you'll simply have to accept not getting our trust and respect. It's that simple.
10 years ago, Linus was a young pimply nerd who made videos about what he loved. Today, he's a grown man doing a job. There's a huge difference between LTT back then, and LMG today.

@LinusTech You are not our "bro". You're "that guy on the internet who doesn't even realize he's become rich, and thinks he's still just like us". It might hurt to hear that, but it's the reality of it. You can't both be our "bro" and a successful businessman. Those two things are mutually exclusive. And I understand you have paychecks to cover and expenses to pay and all that. I DO get that. But the quality of content will always be what we, the viewers, care about. If it's impossible to keep up quality, while also keeping the company profitable, then perhaps you've grown too big. Perhaps you've branched out too far into the realm of entertainment over journalism. I don't know. All I know is that "trust me bro" has to be earned. Not by making promises. Not by selling high quality screwdrivers and excellent hoodies (I love mine), but through constantly showing that you can make the highest quality content, not only for entertainment value, but also in terms of journalistic quality and integrity.

Thanks.

[vong]

Dang, that GN video is hurting them bad. 20k/21k, like/dislike ratio. Never seen it that bad since I started watching in 2012. This needs to be addressed on the WAN show.

 

I'm an LMG fan but Steve has very valid points.