Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[phje]

1 hour ago, LinusTech said:

There won't be a big WAN Show segment about this or anything. Most of what I have to say, I've already said, and I've done so privately.

To Steve, I expressed my disappointment that he didn't go through proper journalistic practices in creating this piece. He has my email and number (along with numerous other members of our team) and could have asked me for context that may have proven to be valuable (like the fact that we didn't 'sell' the monoblock, but rather auctioned it for charity due to a miscommunication... AND the fact that while we haven't sent payment yet, we have already agreed to compensate Billet Labs for the cost of their prototype). There are other issues, but I've told him that I won't be drawn into a public sniping match over this and that I'll be continuing to move forward in good faith as part of 'Team Media'. When/if he's ready to do so again I'll be ready.

To my team (and my CEO's team, but realistically I was at the helm for all of these errors, so I need to own it), I stressed the importance of diligence in our work because there are so many eyes on us. We are going through some growing pains - we've been very public about them in the interest of transparency - and it's clear we have some work to do on internal processes and communication. We have already been doing a lot of work internally to clean up our processes, but these things take time. Rome wasn't built in a day, but that's no excuse for sloppiness.

Now, for my community, all I can say is the same things I always say. We know that we're not perfect. We wear our imperfection on our sleeves in the interest of ensuring that we stay accountable to you. But it's sad and unfortunate when this transparency gets warped into a bad thing. The Labs team is hard at work hard creating processes and tools to generate data that will benefit all consumers - a work in progress that is very much not done and that we've communicated needs to be treated as such. Do we have notes under some videos? Yes. Is it because we are striving for transparency/improvement? Yeah... What we're doing hasn't been in many years, if ever.. and we would make a much larger correction if the circumstances merited it. Listing the wrong amount of cache on a table for a CPU review is sloppy, but given that our conclusions are drawn based on our testing, not the spec sheet, it doesn't materially change the recommendation. That doesn't mean these things don't matter. We've set KPIs for our writing/labs team around accuracy, and we are continually installing new checks and balances to ensure that things continue to get better. If you haven't seen the improvement, frankly I wonder if you're really looking for it... The thoroughness that we managed on our last handful of GPU videos is getting really incredible given the limited time we have for these embargoes. I'm REALLY excited about what the future will hold.

 

With all of that said, I still disagree that the Billet Labs video (not the situation with the return, which I've already addressed above) is an 'accuracy' issue. It's more like I just read the room wrong. We COULD have re-tested it with perfect accuracy, but to do so PROPERLY - accounting for which cases it could be installed in (none) and which radiators it would be plumbed with (again... mystery) would have been impossible... and also didn't affect the conclusion of the video... OR SO I THOUGHT...

 

I wanted to evaluate it as a product, and as a product, IF it could manage to compete with the temperatures of the highest end blocks on the planet, it still wouldn't make sense to buy... so from my point of view, re-testing it and finding out that yes, it did in fact run cooler made no difference to the conclusion, so it didn't really make a difference.

 

Adam and I were talking about this today. He advocated for re-testing it regardless of how non-viable it was as a product at the time and I think he expressed really well today why it mattered. It was like making a video about a supercar. It doesn't mater if no one watching will buy it. They just wanna see it rip.  I missed that, but it wasn't because I didn't care about the consumer.. it was because I was so focused on how this product impacted a potential buyer. Either way, clearly my bad, but my intention was never to harm Billet Labs. I specifically called out their incredible machining skills because I wanted to see them create something with a viable market for it and was hoping others would appreciate the fineness of the craftsmanship even if the product was impractical. I still hope they move forward building something else because they obviously have talent and I've watched countless niche water cooling vendors come and go. It's an astonishingly unforgiving market.

 

Either way, I'm sorry I got the community's priorities mixed-up on this one, and that we didn't show the Billet in the best light. Our intention wasn't to hurt anyone. We wanted no one to buy it (because it's an egregious waste of money no matter what temps it runs at) and we wanted Billet to make something marketable (so they can, y'know, eat).

 

With all of this in mind, it saddens me how quickly the pitchforks were raised over this. It also comes across a touch hypocritical when some basic due diligence could have helped clarify much of it. I have a LONG history of meeting issues head on and I've never been afraid to answer questions, which lands me in hot water regularly, but helps keep me in tune with my peers and with the community. The only reason I can think of not to ask me is because my honest response might be inconvenient. 

 

We can test that... with this post. Will the "It was a mistake (a bad one, but a mistake) and they're taking care of it" reality manage to have the same reach? Let's see if anyone actually wants to know what happened. I hope so, but it's been disheartening seeing how many people were willing to jump on us here. Believe it or not, I'm a real person and so is the rest of my team. We are trying our best, and if what we were doing was easy, everyone would do it. Today sucks.

 

Thanks for reading this.

He made a video for the clicks. it's always about the clicks. Even, if not monetized.

[Glorthiar]

19 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

We talk constantly about how we intend to move forward and make better content. It's just taking longer than any of us would like. If everything had gone according to plan, we'd have our camera range, theater room, and acoustic chamber done like 6 months ago. Instead our warehouse is torn apart right now because they had to reinforce our roof in order to support the heat pumps that we've been trying to get procured since last summer.

The real world is messy, and the more cooks you have in the kitchen, the more room there is for error.

 

With that said, if all you want is a non-ambiguous statement that we're going to keep trying to get better, then here it is. We're going to keep trying to get better. Gary did a wonderful 'state-of-the-union' update for the company this morning about recent milestones and what we have in store. Those investments will keep flowing, and I promise that they will be a win for consumers and the tech industry.

For now, it's hard to do because I'm frustrated by the timelines too, but all I can do is say, "Stay tuned. it's upward from here and we're really excited."

All I wanna say is that I appreciate your blunt and straight forward responses so far
You admit there are mistakes and imperfections and things need to get better.
 

I was very frustrated by some of the things that happened, but I know the real world is very messy and very complicated.
You have always presented as an extremely well meaning person, and I know you WANT the best for everyone.

There are mistakes and backsteps, but even when you don't see eye to eye with the greater community you seem to do your best to make things right.
I hope to see things improve, and I hope that you and everyone at LMG has a better tomorrow.

We'll all be watching with great interest.

[Dom1252]

2 minutes ago, Middcore said:

That is not what "the hard R" means. Calling someone a "r***" is extremely poor taste at best but it is not comparable to a racial slur.

you don't watch WAN show often, do you? 

skip to 4:15 

 

[Middcore]

Just now, amphobius said:

It's in reference to what Linus infamously thought the hard R meant

 

I guess I had the good fortune to miss that particular installment in "Things Linus said on (presumably) the WAN Show he soon had cause to regret." 

[Harlem_Shaker]

Just now, Middcore said:

That is not what "the hard R" means. Calling someone a "retard" is extremely poor taste at best but it is not comparable to a racial slur.

Yes.  I am aware.  That was the reason for the quotation marks.  This was a rather infamous bit from Linus on the WAN Show where he mistook the above quoted word as "The hard R".  Linus talked about using the hard R on a regular basis when he was younger.  Luke stepped in to clarify.  It was Linus talking about how he had grown as an individual in that regard and does not use that word because it's pretty reprehensible. 

[darwin006]

35 minutes ago, dedhed333 said:

Even before seeing any response from LTT it stuck out to me as bad practice for them to not have got any comment from LTT. Its very common for journalists to note that they "reached out to X for comment but didn't receive a reply" and the absence of that from the GN video is bad.

I agree that GN should have contacted LMG for comment on everything before the video was released. I believe that GN should have released video after giving LMG time for a response.

 

I think its a mistake for Linus not to reply with a video or on the WAN Show since he didnt get the chance to respond to the allegations directly to GN for the video.

 

At this point I think most people that have watched the video are calling in to question every review LMG has done or will do in the future.

[Middcore]

Just now, Dom1252 said:

you don't watch WAN show often, do you? 

 

I can happily say I do not. 

[Blademaster91]

13 minutes ago, Middcore said:

 

A laughable prevarication. 

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/auction

 

 

The rest of your response is a lot of playing the victim. Are we supposed to be sorry that Steve actually treated you guys like the multimillion dollar company you are and held you accountable for mistakes instead of giving you the "PC YouTuber good old boys fraternity" benefit of the doubt? Whatever harm GN does to you with this video won't be anywhere near as much harm as you did to Billet Labs by accepting a product and "reviewing" it with (you admit) no intention of ever doing anything except talking about how shitty it is, and that's even before we get to the matter of the sale, I'm sorry, auction. 

 

 

That reminds me of the whole "adblock users are pirates" controversy. A very influential youtuber making a bad take, trying to change the definition of something, doubling down, and the fanbase will agree with them because there is a whole "trust me bro" mentality that Linus likes to use with his audience.

Although i'm not sure why anyone is surprised, Linus put out a statement of trying to hide the issue, denying he was wrong, and then deflecting the problem back onto GN as if LTT has no blame for selling of a product they didn't even own. Trying to brush off the blame and not publicly admitting they f%^&ed up is something CEO people with power seem to do and sadly are effective at doing it.

[atxcyclist]

1 minute ago, darwin006 said:

I agree that GN should have contacted LMG for comment on everything before the video was released. I believe that GN should have released video after giving LMG time for a response.

 

I think its a mistake for Linus not to reply with a video or on the WAN Show since he didnt get the chance to respond to the allegations directly to GN for the video.

 

At this point I think most people that have watched the video are calling in to question every review LMG has done or will do in the future.

Steve didn’t contact anyone at LMG while making the video, so why does LMG need to publicly address poor journalism?

[Middcore]

Just now, Blademaster91 said:

That reminds me of the whole "adblock users are pirates" controversy. A very influential youtuber making a bad take, trying to change the definition of something, doubling down, and the fanbase will agree with them because there is a whole "trust me bro" mentality that Linus likes to use with his audience.

Although i'm not sure why anyone is surprised, Linus did a matter of hiding the issue, denying he was wrong, and then deflecting the problem back onto GN as if LTT has no blame for selling of a product they didn't even own. Trying to brush off the blame and not publicly admitting they f%^&ed up is something CEO people with power seem to do and sadly are effective at doing it.

 

I should have known you would dredge this up again. You and all the others upset at Linus about that were and are hypocrites. I defended him on it then and I will defend him for it now (although in retrospect it was part of a pattern of Linus causing trouble for himself by saying things there was no upside to saying regardless of whether the points were valid).

 

Please stop. People only trivialize the current situation by using this as an opportunity to rehash everything they've ever been butthurt at Linus for. 

[Shaggypaws]

There are 3 sides of the Triangle Quality, Speed, Cost. Based on all the feedback from Linus and recent issues I have personally seen (tons of text corrections on videos) Speed, Cost are currently the ones being most focused on. I get the strong impression many are hoping for Quality and Speed, but we do not run LMG so we get to ignore the Cost side of the triangle. 

[IndustrialBananaBread]

5 minutes ago, Middcore said:

 

It's immaterial. An auction is a form of sale and it's contemptible to pretend there's a difference. Nobody seriously thinks the amount of money made would seriously benefit LMG's bottom line even if they kept the proceeds, but it wasn't theirs to dispose of and they exposed this small company to the loss of their IP. "Yes we basically kinda sorta stole this, but we didn't profit by it (except the profit we made from the video ahem ahem), charity did!" as if they're fucking Robin Hood or something? 

Yeah, it seems like the "auctioned off" wording is a subtle attempt to not say "we sold someone's R&D"

 

[JoostinOnline]

I haven't been on this forum for years as I parted ways due to numerous issues with LTT (all stemming from the focus on growth rather than the consumer) but I was deeply saddened that things have only gotten worse.  I'm not here to throw stones, only beg that LMG please take the criticism constructively, rather than just disregard it as some kind of attack.  LTT was how I first got involved in tech, back when you were a small channel, so even though I don't watch most of your videos anymore, it still holds meaning to me.  I have no desire for you to fail.  Just slow down and focus on ethical practices, rather than capital. Yes, companies that focus on the consumer most usually don't grow as fast or make as much money, but you need to decide what's more important to you.

 

You're being treated like a corporation and not an individual because that's what you are. You can't view everything as a personal attack on your character.

[sof006]

As a original subscriber back all the way in the days of NCIX, it does hurt me to see what I slowly believe is the decline of what was once quality content. I no longer watch any of LTTs review videos simply because I don't trust them to be accurate. However that isn't an issue for me (personally) as I've got other outlets for that kind of content, I've learned to watch LTT for the wacky content. However what I cannot forgive is the slandering of a start up company who trusted you to review their prototype product properly only for you to ignore their instruction, then drag their name in the mud by telling people to not buy, and then now to top it all off, sell their one of a kind prototype that costed them probably a lot of money to make.

 

I'm not sure I want to stay subscribed to LTT anymore, and I seriously hope that your response changes and that its just a heat of the moment snap response to what has happened, I don't usually comment on things like this but I feel very passionately about this as LTT has to be one of my longest subscribed channels after NCIX back in the day. It would be a real big shame if I felt that I didn't want to support LTT anymore. 

[RazielKanos]

2 minutes ago, CYJAN3K said:

You see that "most if not all content that could include possible conflicts of interest seems to include this caveat" so how could you not agree with it?
GN: "There is conflict of interest"
You: "There is conflict of interest but they say there is"
Also you: "I dont agree with GN about the conflict of interest"

Out of all things I dont even have much problem with Framework stuff but "I am willing to ignore the problem" is not the same as "I dont agree there is a problem".

Why would there be a conflict of interest if you disclaim everything? That's why you have disclaimers, for transparency! Show me ONE Laptop review that was influenced by that investment. Let's try it with facts and not just opinions?

[Harlem_Shaker]

3 minutes ago, Dom1252 said:

you don't watch WAN show often, do you? 

skip to 4:15 

 

Lol.  Thanks.  I didn't realize how many people were going to go after me for making a reference people wouldn't get.  I'm going to log off this site now because it's stressing me out.  I frankly don't know how Linus deals with this stuff.

[LIGISTX]

I have been here for a very long time… since before the beginning. @LinusTechtought me how to overclock my i7 920 back in 2009 and I have watched almost every video on the main channel since, and have an OG FP subscription simply to fund a project(s) I admire and appreciate - I want more, and better validated testing. So I pay for a sub I don’t even use simply as a way to show support…. And I demand better. 
 

I definitely don’t agree with everything, but overall, I agree with most things the LMG presents, and I can appreciate when mistakes are made as them trying to do the best they can given the situation they are in. 
 

That said… I demand better. And I am sure much of the community does as well. There is going to be reasons behind some of these issues the general public won’t see or understand, be it new team members learning, processes being tweaked and overlooked, NDA scramble, etc etc, but Steve points out some very valid choices that have been made that are clearly poor ones. If LMG wants to brand itself as a data driven company with high regard for accuracy, they must do better. 
 

Also, if that water block should have been returned, maybe this was addressed previously in the pages of comments, but that I assume is an extreme communication breakdown internally, and that needs to be addressed publicly. 
 

I look forward to an informative WAN show   

[Drazil100]

1 hour ago, LinusTech said:

To Steve, I expressed my disappointment that he didn't go through proper journalistic practices in creating this piece. He has my email and number (along with numerous other members of our team) and could have asked me for context that may have proven to be valuable...

While I agree that he could have done that, and probably should have done that, this is a really shitty comment to make. I would have liked to see Steve reach out for comment too, but do you guys always reach out for statements from the companies whose controversies you talk about on WAN? I know you do some of the time but how often do you just talk about it and move on without ever reaching out?

If you had instead phrased this like this I wouldn't have a problem:
"Here is the information that Steve was lacking in his video... We respect that he made this video and we are trying to improve our processes blah blah. If you ever need additional information on this or anything in the future feel free to reach out"

Instead you chose to throw him under the bus and tell the community essentially "He covered this wrong how dare he" which doesn't resolve anything and looks really bad in the process. Unless you have any evidence as to why people shouldn't trust Steve, I am disappointed that you choose to talk down on another creator as a response to their fair negative coverage of you.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Drazil100
Snipped a larger portion of the quote

[the9thdude]

Just now, atxcyclist said:

Steve didn’t contact anyone at LMG while making the video, so why does LMG need to publicly address poor journalism?

Because there are 30 pages on the LTT forum discussing a video with over 600k views regarding LTT business' practices and ethics?

[VicBar]

3 hours ago, Skipple said:

Accusing someone/a company of a "subconscious bias" should follow with evidence of said bias, which I failed to see in Steve's video. There is a potential for conflict of interest, sure. Accusations of bias, even subconscious, require evidence. 

 

Following Steve's logic, his entire video is riddled with subconscious bias, as LTT is a competitor it GN. 

Pretty sure the "evidence" for the subconscious bias of Noctua was the mistakes during the performance numbers on that vid that actually looked Noctua look bad but they didn't notice, also the 4060 "review or unboxing" not sure with the ASUS card that had them just sputing wrong stuff and carefree validations of quality.

 

If it wasn't a review I'd have no qualms, it's fair to say, "noctua is generally really good" or "Seasonic is a brand you can trust for PSUs", but being sponsored by them or having comercial ties (noctua edition screwdriver) can surely muddy the waters, no?

[CYJAN3K]

1 hour ago, McDude said:

Exactly, every time a story breaks you hear "we reach X evil / not evil company for a comment, but we have yet to hear back" or something similar.

No, you are probably combining news stories where they do that (if someone else has criticism/accusation and third party side asks for comment - like if asus motherboard has a problem and client has problem with asus support client might come to LTT or GN or whoever and they will ask Asus for comment).
However it doesnt happen when magazine, reporter etc. has things to back up their claims.

[Kredbu]

This video came at an interesting time for me. I just got an LTT store order in the mail, and found "trust me bro" in the free sticker pack. That was the last straw of scummyness for me. It was always pretty cringe hearing it repeated on wan show, but the actual physical object was like someone had shat on my hand, so I cancelled my floatplane account. The way they have started to double down on doing shitty things and try to force it down your throat like if they repeat it enough you'll accept it really crossed a line for me, and I guess after watching this video... I just didn't pick up on how many other situations it has been happening. 

[gonenutsbrb]

25 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

We talk constantly about how we intend to move forward and make better content. It's just taking longer than any of us would like. If everything had gone according to plan, we'd have our camera range, theater room, and acoustic chamber done like 6 months ago. Instead our warehouse is torn apart right now because they had to reinforce our roof in order to support the heat pumps that we've been trying to get procured since last summer.

The real world is messy, and the more cooks you have in the kitchen, the more room there is for error.

 

With that said, if all you want is a non-ambiguous statement that we're going to keep trying to get better, then here it is. We're going to keep trying to get better. Gary did a wonderful 'state-of-the-union' update for the company this morning about recent milestones and what we have in store. Those investments will keep flowing, and I promise that they will be a win for consumers and the tech industry.

For now, it's hard to do because I'm frustrated by the timelines too, but all I can do is say, "Stay tuned. it's upward from here and we're really excited."

My biggest issues with this at this point are the double standards they set with data and the Billet Labs piece.

 

LMG is too large to have these kind of consistent conclusion-affecting errors in videos, especially since they're trying to build themselves up as a massive testing ground and reliable source with Labs.  You can't have it both ways.  It's not about the individual mistakes however small or large, it's the pattern that is the problem.  They need to slow down, and focus on reliability/quality instead of quantity.

 

The Billet Labs piece probably could have had more context and commentary from the LMG side, but regardless, this was a super crappy move here, and for a company as small as Billet, could cost them everything. I don't even inherently disagree with some of the conclusions regarding the coverage of the cooler, but the way Linus handled this is just so counter to what he espouses.  He was punching down, knew he was doing so, and doubled down when called out on it.  Just be better man.

 

That being said, I have less issue with the Framework investment, though I completely understand the concern.  They're handling *so far* of other laptop reviews and coverage I feel like has been sufficiently disclosed and overall felt like fair coverage.

 

...buuuuuuut, the mess with Noctua and lousy data leading to questionable conclusions (which is probably coincidental as opposed to them intentionally shilling for Noctua)

- definitely doesn't help the arguments of neutrality
- emphasizes that the data mistakes do not happen in a vacuum and have consequences, intended or otherwise
- makes people (like myself) take a second glance at the Framework relationship who trusted LMG/Linus to handle his COI responsibly

 

Intentions matter here, I do not think Linus is out here as some caricatured villian trying to greedily make business decisions that earns him personally the most money at any cost, but outcomes matter too, and need to be evaluated with the intentions.  To reiterate again, Linus needs to just be better about this stuff, and cop up to mistakes with more humility.

 

@LinusTech  I cannot imagine the number of mentions and replies you'll be getting in the next few hours/days.  I also imagine this will be pretty tough on you and your staff, and that part sucks.  Hope the best for you guys and that you take at least a moment today to catch your breath, let everything settle, and respond on the other side of the frustration and understandable defensiveness.  I have said to be better because I think you are better, and that people mess up.

[Paul Thexton]

3 minutes ago, Middcore said:

That is not what "the hard R" means. Calling someone a "retard" is extremely poor taste at best but it is not comparable to a racial slur.

I’m not even going to attempt to gauge one against the other in terms of how bad it is, but using the R word as a slur is not “extremely poor taste”, it’s as unacceptable as racial slurs are.

[CradleGames]

100M$+ lab and studio, but can't pay 200$ for his staff to do their job properly. W...
Auction out an invaluable unique prototype they don't own. WT...
Shit on a new company because Linus believe nobody should buy their product or that he can't do no wrong. WTF...

Linus needs to be slap back down to reality.
It's the same garbage as the no warranty on their their store products, but now over other people's creations.