Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[strajk-]

Sorry Linus, but most of what you wrote as a response felt Corporate at best, not genuine.

Quality of the videos when it comes to reviews, data and its consistency has fallen off a cliff, I unsubscribed to every single LMG channel except for LTT because of that months ago.

 

As for the GN video, most of the points are valid and hopefully light up a fire under you guys to actually do things slower and more carefully, most importantly please put more time into a video to actually meet the standards you preach about products you test constantly, thank you.

[Middcore]

Just now, JoostinOnline said:

You're being treated like a corporation and not an individual because that's what you are. You can't view everything as a personal attack on your character.

 

This is at the core of so much of what's wrong with LTT, I think.

 

Linus is running (yes, yes, not the CEO anymore, spare me) a multimillion dollar enterprise with (checks website)... Good God, over 80 employees now. But he still acts like, and seems to be expect to be treated like, some random guy making YouTube videos solo in a bedroom. 

[IndustrialBananaBread]

1 minute ago, JoostinOnline said:

I haven't been on this forum for years as I parted ways due to numerous issues with LTT (all stemming from the focus on growth rather than the consumer) but I was deeply saddened that things have only gotten worse.  I'm not here to throw stones, only beg that LMG please take the criticism constructively, rather than just disregard it as some kind of attack.  LTT was how I first got involved in tech, back when you were a small channel, so even though I don't watch most of your videos anymore, it still holds meaning to me.  I have no desire for you to fail.  Just slow down and focus on ethical practices, rather than capital. Yes, companies that focus on the consumer most usually don't grow as fast or make as much money, but you need to decide what's more important to you.

 

You're being treated like a corporation and not an individual because that's what you are. You can't view everything as a personal attack on your character.

100%. I really do hope that LTT finally take this video and this forum as motivation to change. I would love to see LTT flourish even more than it has been, and it would be a crushing disappointment if inaccuracies and mishaps like this continue. Hell, even some employees in the working for linus videos want more time to focus on quality rather than quantity, as Steve showed in his video.

[MarkPol88]

13 minutes ago, insanityclown said:

why is it concerning that GN didn’t reach out. Why is Steve obligated to reach out?

It raises questions why GN did not reach out - maybe Steve knew that Linus would talk with him, maybe clear some allegations and it did not fit well with the video?

Or maybe he wanted to just say his piece and see how LMG reacts?

Who knows?

That is why it is concerning - up to date Steve usually reached out even to mostly "evil" corporations, but not his "colleague"?

It just fuels "hit piece" conspirators.

And imagine if the video included "We reached out to Linus and LMG and this is their statement/ they choose to not issue any statement". Sounds better, doesn't it?

 

[RazielKanos]

The most popcornish thing this eve, are all the 1rst time posters for today, just trowing insults and curses about how concerned they are about someone's other "ethics"

Proof that GN Fanboys know a thing about humor

Good night...

[Crowbar_XL]

Linus why don't you properly address this in a video if you dont have anything to apologize for? Sure a lot of people wont be happy no matter what but I think its a pretty important thing to talk about. 

 

I say this as a pretty much a decade long fan. What steve said wasnt unfounded, and I dont think it was ill willed either.

[Rimson]

4 minutes ago, the9thdude said:

Because there are 30 pages on the LTT forum discussing a video with over 600k views regarding LTT business' practices and ethics?

lol and he didn't monatize it epic from Steve !

[amphobius]

1 hour ago, LinusTech said:

There won't be a big WAN Show segment about this or anything. Most of what I have to say, I've already said, and I've done so privately.

To Steve, I expressed my disappointment that he didn't go through proper journalistic practices in creating this piece. He has my email and number (along with numerous other members of our team) and could have asked me for context that may have proven to be valuable (like the fact that we didn't 'sell' the monoblock, but rather auctioned it for charity due to a miscommunication... AND the fact that while we haven't sent payment yet, we have already agreed to compensate Billet Labs for the cost of their prototype). There are other issues, but I've told him that I won't be drawn into a public sniping match over this and that I'll be continuing to move forward in good faith as part of 'Team Media'. When/if he's ready to do so again I'll be ready.

To my team (and my CEO's team, but realistically I was at the helm for all of these errors, so I need to own it), I stressed the importance of diligence in our work because there are so many eyes on us. We are going through some growing pains - we've been very public about them in the interest of transparency - and it's clear we have some work to do on internal processes and communication. We have already been doing a lot of work internally to clean up our processes, but these things take time. Rome wasn't built in a day, but that's no excuse for sloppiness.

Now, for my community, all I can say is the same things I always say. We know that we're not perfect. We wear our imperfection on our sleeves in the interest of ensuring that we stay accountable to you. But it's sad and unfortunate when this transparency gets warped into a bad thing. The Labs team is hard at work hard creating processes and tools to generate data that will benefit all consumers - a work in progress that is very much not done and that we've communicated needs to be treated as such. Do we have notes under some videos? Yes. Is it because we are striving for transparency/improvement? Yeah... What we're doing hasn't been in many years, if ever.. and we would make a much larger correction if the circumstances merited it. Listing the wrong amount of cache on a table for a CPU review is sloppy, but given that our conclusions are drawn based on our testing, not the spec sheet, it doesn't materially change the recommendation. That doesn't mean these things don't matter. We've set KPIs for our writing/labs team around accuracy, and we are continually installing new checks and balances to ensure that things continue to get better. If you haven't seen the improvement, frankly I wonder if you're really looking for it... The thoroughness that we managed on our last handful of GPU videos is getting really incredible given the limited time we have for these embargoes. I'm REALLY excited about what the future will hold.

 

With all of that said, I still disagree that the Billet Labs video (not the situation with the return, which I've already addressed above) is an 'accuracy' issue. It's more like I just read the room wrong. We COULD have re-tested it with perfect accuracy, but to do so PROPERLY - accounting for which cases it could be installed in (none) and which radiators it would be plumbed with (again... mystery) would have been impossible... and also didn't affect the conclusion of the video... OR SO I THOUGHT...

 

I wanted to evaluate it as a product, and as a product, IF it could manage to compete with the temperatures of the highest end blocks on the planet, it still wouldn't make sense to buy... so from my point of view, re-testing it and finding out that yes, it did in fact run cooler made no difference to the conclusion, so it didn't really make a difference.

 

Adam and I were talking about this today. He advocated for re-testing it regardless of how non-viable it was as a product at the time and I think he expressed really well today why it mattered. It was like making a video about a supercar. It doesn't mater if no one watching will buy it. They just wanna see it rip.  I missed that, but it wasn't because I didn't care about the consumer.. it was because I was so focused on how this product impacted a potential buyer. Either way, clearly my bad, but my intention was never to harm Billet Labs. I specifically called out their incredible machining skills because I wanted to see them create something with a viable market for it and was hoping others would appreciate the fineness of the craftsmanship even if the product was impractical. I still hope they move forward building something else because they obviously have talent and I've watched countless niche water cooling vendors come and go. It's an astonishingly unforgiving market.

 

Either way, I'm sorry I got the community's priorities mixed-up on this one, and that we didn't show the Billet in the best light. Our intention wasn't to hurt anyone. We wanted no one to buy it (because it's an egregious waste of money no matter what temps it runs at) and we wanted Billet to make something marketable (so they can, y'know, eat).

 

With all of this in mind, it saddens me how quickly the pitchforks were raised over this. It also comes across a touch hypocritical when some basic due diligence could have helped clarify much of it. I have a LONG history of meeting issues head on and I've never been afraid to answer questions, which lands me in hot water regularly, but helps keep me in tune with my peers and with the community. The only reason I can think of not to ask me is because my honest response might be inconvenient. 

 

We can test that... with this post. Will the "It was a mistake (a bad one, but a mistake) and they're taking care of it" reality manage to have the same reach? Let's see if anyone actually wants to know what happened. I hope so, but it's been disheartening seeing how many people were willing to jump on us here. Believe it or not, I'm a real person and so is the rest of my team. We are trying our best, and if what we were doing was easy, everyone would do it. Today sucks.

 

Thanks for reading this.

As a response... this is fine. It's not great, it doesn't tackle the other issues issued in the video but otherwise... it's fine.

 

That being said, the video's out there on YouTube and it's making the rounds. Your post on here is not going to have anywhere near the same reach - and I know you know that. It's not just Steve or Billet Labs that need a response here, it's to your fans who don't necessarily read the forums (I certainly don't really read around here much unless something's happened and I want to get a feeler on how people feel about a recent video) and especially to those of us who are paying to support what LMG does on Floatplane. A complete response on WAN is inappropriate, I agree - but something that functions as a video rebuttal, even to a core, basic level is surely a must here? This isn't something that can just be blown over by a company that makes mistakes - we all do - but the amount of basic errors that keep adding up over time over the past couple of years in basic data verification are becoming more than a joke now, surely? Isn't this a sign that the brakes need to be pumped rather than to fuel the fire more?

 

Why not get Steve and Billet Labs on the show this week? It doesn't have to be a means of dragging this out but it would show that you - LMG - are taking accountability for the failings documented here to everyone. If their schedules don't work out for this weekend, OK, but I'm sure they'd jump at the chance to make wider comment and most importantly have a public conversation so everyone knows where you stand.

 

Certain things can be done in private. That's fine. But a significant portion of this lies directly in LMG's public image and how seriously people are going to take you, especially if you want Labs to have any sort of use to people.

[GothicLolita]

Linus's reply reads like a deft sidestep rather than genuine accountability. While intentions matter, they don't absolve the tangible harm inflicted on Billet Labs. True responsibility involves more than eloquent explanations; it demands rectification. Moreover, lamenting the limited 'reach' of his private forum post seems disingenuous. If Linus truly sought widespread understanding, he'd opt for a public statement or video. It appears he's dodging full transparency.

 

In many situations, the path to redemption and understanding is surprisingly simple. A genuine acknowledgment of the error, devoid of excuses or defensiveness, can work wonders. When someone steps forward and says, "I'm truly sorry. I made a mistake, and I'm taking steps to rectify" it demonstrates humility, responsibility, and maturity. Such an approach not only begins the process of healing for those wronged but also fosters respect and trust.

 

Yet, our ego often stands as a formidable barrier to such straightforward admissions. The ego, driven by a desire to protect our self-image and avoid vulnerability, can push individuals to deny, deflect, or even double down on their mistakes. This defensive posture can escalate conflicts and further alienate those seeking acknowledgment and redress.

 

When pride and ego dominate the response to a mistake, it not only exacerbates the initial harm but also erodes trust and goodwill. It's a missed opportunity for growth, understanding, and connection. In the end, the ability to set aside one's ego, admit wrongdoing, and embark on a path of correction is not just an act of personal integrity; it's a powerful bridge to understanding and harmony between the communities.

It is just my two cents.

Stay strong, Linus. I've been with you since the NCIS days. Remember, no matter how far we've come, deep down we're all just hairless monkeys with lots of instincts. Keep pushing forwards, but don't double down on a mistake.

 

[The_Poff]

10 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

We are using this, like everything else, to continue to drive ourselves to do better. Got some really exciting stuff in the holster

 

A really good one - and the video where I actually FOUND the 3090 Ti that we were supposed to send back to Billet... grrr... - is kind of an undercover boss vid where I go and work in our logistics department for the day. This is the kind of thing I'm finding more time for in the new role and is already making a difference to some of our practices. 

All I really see from the whole situation is this: Your Goal should be 100% accuracy while Having good business practices and your message and processes should drive toward that. I understand your point that we don't even need a test to know buying a 800$ water block isnt a good value. But, When doing a test, dont go looking for extra expense, but when doing a test, do it correctly. 

Steve came up with examples in your errors in testing, and you've already stating your working on it: Good, I trust and believe that.
You Made the water block company Whole, from your phrasing could you clarify if you did that before todays video from GN came out? It feels like that's what you said, but wasn't crystal clear on. 

The mouse thing, mistakes happen, but you guys seem to own them. 

People are going to be mad just because it brings excitement to their day, Hell, I was compelled enough to do more than just lurk. But truly to only say that Steve made a 44 minute video that should of been labeled "Feedback for LMG to help improve their processes and call out some mistakes"

[crism]

15 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

A really good one - and the video where I actually FOUND the 3090 Ti that we were supposed to send back to Billet... grrr... - is kind of an undercover boss vid where I go and work in our logistics department for the day. This is the kind of thing I'm finding more time for in the new role and is already making a difference to some of our practices. 

that sounds like a fun video! I'm looking forward to it!
 

how many red arrows and or red circles can we expect in the Youtube thumbnail?
 

[Blademaster91]

2 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

Steve didn’t contact anyone at LMG while making the video, so why does LMG need to publicly address poor journalism?

Why does Steve need to contact anyone at LMG? From the comments I'm seeing LMG attacked first on a WAN show, so if Linus wants to complain about poor journalism then they aren't doing proper journalism either.

2 minutes ago, Middcore said:

 

I should have known you would dredge this up again. You and all the others upset at Linus about that were and are hypocrites. I defended him on it then and I will defend him for it now (although in retrospect it was part of a pattern of Linus causing trouble for himself by saying things there was no upside to saying regardless of whether the points were valid).

 

Please stop. People only trivialize the current situation by using this as an opportunity to rehash everything they've ever been butthurt at Linus for. 

I'm not rehashing anything again, my point was only that it was a comparison to a bad take Linus has made before, and hasn't seemed to learn from stupid mistakes, instead tries to dance around a problem instead of admitting they fucked up like a grown up in charge of a multimillion dollar company, and your defense of such a take is a bad take as well.

[atxcyclist]

1 minute ago, the9thdude said:

Because there are 30 pages on the LTT forum discussing a video with over 600k views regarding LTT business' practices and ethics?

That didn’t exist when Gamer’s Nexus was producing the video, so your point is moot. Unless Steve has a Time Machine and saw this reaction, it’s no excuse for them to not reach-out before making the video public.

 

As I and many others have stated earlier in this thread, before something like this is made public, every news/journalistic entity is expected to contact someone they are making this sort of content about. Steve loves to talk about journalistic integrity, but has failed at one of the most basic attributes of reporting.

[Middcore]

Just now, Crowbar_XL said:

Linus why don't you properly address this in a video if you dont have anything to apologize for? Sure a lot of people wont be happy no matter what but I think its a pretty important thing to talk about

Because he has no defense. The inaccuracies are what they are, what they did to Billet is what it was. "We're trying to get better, why is everyone being so mean to us? And also the money from selling off Billet's IP went to charity so it's all fine and we'll send them a check trust me bro" is all he's got. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Crowbar_XL said:

Linus why don't you properly address this in a video if you dont have anything to apologize for? Sure a lot of people wont be happy no matter what but I think its a pretty important thing to talk about

20 bucks say you will never see a video about this. LTT has like 15M subscribers, only a fraction of them will see the GN video or this post, so the topic is better kept hush. Hope I'm wrong tho!

[IndustrialBananaBread]

4 minutes ago, gonenutsbrb said:

The Billet Labs piece probably could have had more context and commentary from the LMG side, but regardless, this was a super crappy move here, and for a company as small as Billet, could cost them everything. I don't even inherently disagree with some of the conclusions regarding the coverage of the cooler, but the way Linus handled this is just so counter to what he espouses.  He was punching down, knew he was doing so, and doubled down when called out on it.  Just be better man.

I would have loved more context and insight into the entire fiasco with Billet, as the original response seemed to just be "we paid them money so it's a non issue."

[RLP]

1 hour ago, LinusTech said:

Billet sent us a quote. I don't know or care how they arrived at the value. If they're good, I'm good.

As for what steps we're taking, you're talking about an outlier issue that has happened once in 10+ years of operation. There won't be a new SOP to ensure we don't accidentally auction stuff. We just need to tighten up some documentation.

Regarding the Billet situation.....

Will the payment of this quote be accompanied by legalese to prevent future actions/attempts for relief by Billet? Or will you just trust them, bro?

[CradleGames]

2 minutes ago, MarkPol88 said:

It raises questions why GN did not reach out - maybe Steve knew that Linus would talk with him, maybe clear some allegations and it did not fit well with the video?

Or maybe he wanted to just say his piece and see how LMG reacts?

Who knows?

That is why it is concerning - up to date Steve usually reached out even to mostly "evil" corporations, but not his "colleague"?

It just fuels "hit piece" conspirators.

And imagine if the video included "We reached out to Linus and LMG and this is their statement/ they choose to not issue any statement". Sounds better, doesn't it?

 

Because that's what Linus has been doing lately. Doesn't reach out, doesn't read the manual, and when it goes bad, blame the other party without a meaningful way for them to reply. Maybe have it been done to Linus will make him wake up about his own shitty behavior. 

[IndustrialBananaBread]

1 minute ago, mgo said:

20 bucks say you will never see a video about this. LTT has like 15M subscribers, only a fraction of them will see the GN video or this post, so the topic is better kept hush. Hope I'm wrong tho!

Would be really disappointing to see LMG sweep it under the rug after Linus' original response. The community deserves a more in depth perspective from LTT's side and to see any defense or refutes offered by LTT.

[Lyre]

Just now, mgo said:

20 bucks say you will never see a video about this. LTT has like 15M subscribers, only a fraction of them will see the GN video or this post, so the topic is better kept hush. Hope I'm wrong tho!

I don't think that LTT is that vein, the people who it matters to are Floatplane subs who I doubt aren't here whats to stop the 10$ subs from going to 5 in protest or even just canceling all at once, we will need to see what happens in the coming days.

[Ex14]

38 minutes ago, post_screen said:

I can see your point and with this situation reaching this scale, I’m sure that this fiasco is a win for them. However, if it stayed in the shadows, most people would have never heard of the company outside of the review video and while I’m not nearly rich enough to know much about boutique brands such as Billet, I believed that any negative review would have hindered any chance they had of becoming a reputable brand and a good company for you to burn your money on in exchange for a good flex and a good product

At this point it seem it’s just a difference in opinion and we’re likely going to go around in circles should this continue so we can leave it as agree to disagree

[Arneun]

22 minutes ago, ToboRobot said:

Generally journalists will reach for comment on a story to gather and confirm facts, and get comment from parties involved in the story.

I think it's more of a guideline than a rule, but that's just my laymans take on journalistic standards.

I think in my country it's part of codified journalistic ethics, I've always assumed that we aren't one-off country that does that (I'm from Europe though).

That point roughly translates as: (it can be imperfect, I'm not sure whether some words in English are best matched to meanings)
 

Quote

In conflict situations it's required to reach out to information sources inside all conflicted parties. In case of difficulties (ie. inabilities) of contacting to one of the parties there is requirement to inform that informations gathered are only partial.  
Author is required to post corrections out of his own initiative when information will come out as being false or partially correct. There is no motive, pressure or inspiration that would excuse [knowingly is implied here by context] provide false or not verified information.

(and original, as for what that language is, I'm from Poland):

Quote

W sytuacjach konfliktowych obowiązuje szczególna staranność w dotarciu do źródeł informacji wszystkich stron sporu. W razie trudności dotarcia do jednej ze stron sporu obowiązuje stwierdzenie, iż są to dane częściowe.
Autor zobowiązany jest do sprostowania z własnej inicjatywy, gdy informacja okazuje się fałszywa lub nieścisła. Żaden motyw, żadne naciski czy inspiracje nie usprawiedliwiają podania fałszywych czy niesprawdzonych informacji.

EDIT: (fixed parenthesis and spellign mistake I've found)

Edited August 14, 2023 by Arneun

[Alvin853]

12 minutes ago, Robioto said:

I'm not a regular poster hear, but I've been watching LTT and GN videos for many years. I just wanted to leave my feelings and feedback, to add my single opinion to hopefully help LTT be better.

 

- I have been watching less and less LTT videos over the past few years as I feel the quality of videos has dropped. A lot of what is in the GN video backs this up

 

- The clickbait videos titles and thumbnails have contributed to this (I won't click a video without knowing the content), as well as the constant intrusive plugs for the merchandise.

 

- I am a fan of GN, but if he didn't contact LTT first for comment, which appears to be the case, that is wrong and very disappointing

 

- The whole Billet Labs debacle is unacceptable at every level. There wasn't just one error here, there is a whole series of errors which unbelievably ends in a prototype being sold. This is negligence and the blasé response from LTT to this is a disgrace, "we're not going to review our SOPs" is a terrible response, obviously something needs to change as this series of errors is ridiculous.

 

- The Pwnage Mouse thing seems to he getting lost in all this too. The way LTT handled this is an embarrassment, unprofessional and amateur.

 

LTT need to learn lesson from this and make changes. I want to trust the videos again like I did 5+ years ago. Slow the content, improve quality and make the videos accurate and useful over being "funny" (I don't think the sensor humour on LTT videos is funny, it's mildly amusing at best and cringeworthy on occasion, but that's on me).

 

Put your community first and make some positive changes. Start by slowing down a bit and putting out better, less frequent content.

 

That's just my opinion. Cheers.

 

So much this, LMG has a weird incentive to reach the highest possible view/subscriber numbers, that they stopped caring about their target audience. An LTT video getting 1M views doesn't mean it's a good video, it just means that by now you have found 1M "fanboys" that will watch every video no matter what it is about. The audience that LTT has built up over the years is turning their back on LMG channels because of bad quality videos, clickbait titles and thumbnails, and being overrun with merchandising plugs and sponsored content (remember when video titles used to include whether a video was sponsored? yeah transparency is good for the audience, you can tell the priorities are shifting). Eventually the sponsors will realize that pure view numbers don't mean anything, a video with 100k views that perfectly hits with the intended target audience can be way more lucrative for a sponsor than a video with 1M views that's so bad almost nobody from the tech scene watches it and all the views come from high schoolers that fall for clickbait.

 

Give us back the LTT that cares about the audience and not only about the money.

[atxcyclist]

2 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Why does Steve need to contact anyone at LMG? From the comments I'm seeing LMG attacked first on a WAN show, so if Linus wants to complain about poor journalism then they aren't doing proper journalism either.

I'm not rehashing anything again, my point was only that it was a comparison to a bad take Linus has made before, and hasn't seemed to learn from stupid mistakes, instead tries to dance around a problem instead of admitting they fucked up like a grown up in charge of a multimillion dollar company, and your defense of such a take is a bad take as well.

Not sure where you’re seeing that, your comment is the first I’ve read of it. In the video, Steve shows a clip of an LTT Labs segment talking about a differentiation of their processes to GN’s, but the LTT employee wasn’t shit-talking or anything like that.

 

You make contact before making something like this public, because that’s what journalists are expected to do. There is no journalistic integrity in making one-sided presentations like this.

[VicBar]

3 hours ago, swimtome said:

 

 

IMHO you're confusing vindictive with trying to be thorough and coming with receipts.  He's being careful to specify specific examples that he can backup.

Nah, Steve can be snarky. He very often is. Not necessarily a bad thing... and imo he was particularly un-snarky through the grand majority of this video.