Nvidia might delay RTX 40 series on account of a 30 series market flood

[Montana One-Six]

16 hours ago, Kisai said:

Nah, read the left column:

"G3D Rating(% diff. to max in group)"  

Which happened to be the left-most card in every example.

 

I then transcribed the other %'s by deleting the left-most columns. Losing 71.9% going from the 3060 to 760 is the inverse calculation. Yet it demonstrates exactly the same thing. Bigger numbers look better, but it doesn't change the fact that the differences in the tier of the card have pretty much been linear. No matter which 7xx card you upgrade from, the 30xx of the same tier was the same relative change in performance.

I don't have a problem with anything but the wording.

 

This part "if you went straight from a 760 to a 3060" from this sentence "That's a 71.9% change in performance if you went straight from a 760 to a 3060." implies that the 760 is the baseline. Which makes the percentages in the first part of that sentence wrong. As the 71.9% is the percentage of performance you loose when going from the 3060 to the 760. Which means the 3060 is the baseline. Percentages are relative numbers that have to be adjusted to reflect your data if you change the baseline otherwise they will be wrong. So basically the only issue is that you changed the wording so that the original percentages don't match anymore. Which means you have to recalculate the percentages to fit your wording or change the wording so that they fit the original percentages again.

 

Like I said if you said something like this: "That's a 71.9% (negative) change in performance if you went straight from a 3060 to a 760." the percentages would be correct again.

 

 

 

 

[MageTank]

On 7/15/2022 at 8:29 PM, Kisai said:

No power stations were ever spun back up because of the demand to play a game. Dirty power stations have been spun back up BY miners. By all accounts, mining is being done in more intensive, environmentally-negative ways then gaming is.

Kisai, this is my problem with having a discussion with you on this forum. You seem incredibly intelligent, but you completely ignore the people you are conversing with and attempt to force your words down peoples throats when it has nothing to do with what they are saying. I have NEVER spoke about mining or gaming being worse than one another on this forum. You will NEVER find me comparing the two in that regard. I've only ever pointed out the hypocrisy between both camps whenever they move the goal post towards morals. 

 

On 7/15/2022 at 8:29 PM, Kisai said:

Do you really think that gamers are going to sit there and continue to game during rolling blackouts? No. I know of no people who go "I must have a gamer laptop, just in case my power utility shuts off my power", but when a miner has to shut down, they immediately scream bloody murder as they are now losing money.

You honestly think the hobbiest miners are buying redundant power solutions and using gas powered generators? There is no ROI on that, lol. Who is guilty of "gross generalizations" now?

 

On 7/15/2022 at 8:29 PM, Kisai said:

You're free to do whatever you want with your own equipment, but saying "mining is a hobby" is like saying smoking is a hobby. It's objectively bad, but you can quit any time and cause no further damage. You can quit games, but you'll just replace it with an equally energy intensive source of entertainment like watching TV, or reading books. Or are people that naïve to believe that no entertainment is energy-free? 

Gaming is objectively bad. You could be doing something healthier, like physical activity. You could be reading books to improve your memory and overall knowledge. See how easy it is to demonize something we don't like by pretending its not subjective? 

 

3 hours ago, Dracarris said:

Completely ignoring what I wrote. This quote is just horribly misplaced and unfitting here, well and in general quite close to complete bullocks and simply untrue. Ignoring the fact that "evil" in itself is a very bad fit for both gaming and mining.

 

Causing 10 - 100x more of whatever bad thing is not the same, period.

 

If I drive a compact car with 4l/100km of fuel consumption, only occasionally, and do short distances by foot or bike and my neighbor uses a truck with tenfold fuel consumption for every short way/distance daily, leaves it idling for hours in the driveway to have the AC running, he's doing significantly more harm to the environment. Period. They are not the same, not matter how often you or your mining friends here come up with ridiculous comparisons, quotes, and deluded views about quite simple mathematical facts. You are outright denying reality.

 

I didn't ignore what you wrote, my humor was exactly on point with yours. You claimed that gamers doing something less bad than miners is relevant, as a means of justifying gaming's existence over mining. Lets dig deeper since you seem to enjoy weighing morality. A gamer, as a hobby, plays their favorite game. Realizes they are good at it, decides to setup a streaming environment. They start raking in views, start selling merch and now travels the world to various festivals. All of a sudden they have increased fuel usage due to shipping costs for their merch, started flying more frequently contributing to higher fuel usage in air, and perpetuated a lifestyle in which more people will attempt to follow with more purchased streaming equipment and more electricity used on lighting, video editing and branding. Before you respond to this part, it's only fair that I warn you that you are going to fall for a trap here, but it's totally necessary, lol.

 

While we are on the subject of falling for traps, let me walk into yours. The problem with you people and your arbitrary scales is that you simply cannot factor in all of the variables. How much can you and your small 41/100km fuel car haul? Is a truck that can haul significantly more cargo and seat more people more environmentally damning if it can do in 1 trip what would take you several? Even if it uses 4x the fuel? All of a sudden, this becomes less about (X vehicle is using Y more gas, therefore it is bad!) and instead becomes a simple efficiency equation. Yet, because it uses more fuel, it's bad and not the same, right? You never explicitly explained what it is your neighbor is doing with their truck. Also, modern gas trucks get roughly 19-22MPG. Source: Me, I drive a big yeehaw truck. You'd be hard pressed to find a modern truck that uses 10x the fuel of a normal gas car, lol. It's not even 10-fold against a Tesla...

 

 

[pas008]

seriously topic goes mining ridiculous

who the f cares about what others do with their devices its none of your business

 

if you care so much about the the grid, environment, etc why are you bitching here instead of out protesting against millions of companies that do far worse

fyi if the electric company is going to supply them and they are paying then what is your problem? cause you cant get your gpu?

[tikker]

4 hours ago, Dracarris said:

f I drive a compact car with 4l/100km of fuel consumption, only occasionally, and do short distances by foot or bike and my neighbor uses a truck with tenfold fuel consumption for every short way/distance daily, leaves it idling for hours in the driveway to have the AC running, he's doing significantly more harm to the environment. Period. They are not the same, not matter how often you or your mining friends here come up with ridiculous comparisons, quotes, and deluded views about quite simple mathematical facts. You are outright denying reality.

Well yeah, but you compare one car with another one that you literally say is ten times worse to begin with. That is not a fair comparison and not the point discussed. The comparison drawn here is that if you drove that compact car for say 10 minutes a day for 10 days and your neighbour drove the exact same car for 100 minutes once per 10 days, that the both of you will have the same net impact in the end because both of you have used that car for 100 minutes (assuming all else equal). Similarly since mining runs 24/7, if you go by the 2 hours of gaming per day brought up in this thread then a single gamer will take 12 days to have the same impact as a single miner, but 12 people gaming simultaneously have the same impact per day as one miner per day, assuming equal cards and power draw. Do we have 12 times as many GPUs gaming as GPUs mining? I don't know, but as soon as that ratio is hit the environmental impact of both groups will be similar.

 

The justification of one or the other becomes a "how many people benefit from this" discussion.

4 hours ago, Dracarris said:

No matter how often you repeat this utter, utter nonsense: It's not going to become true even in the slightest way.

Some studies and estimates of what the power consumption of gaming can be have been presented and they are close to the mining number. If you think they are wrong why don't you attempt to disprove them by bringing other sources and numbers? I'm sure we are happy to be proven wrong, just not if nothing more than "you're wrong" is brought to the table.

4 hours ago, Dracarris said:

I am also still waiting for the day where gamers bring down the electricity grid of smaller countries or cause a shortage of electricity and hence get gaming banned.

That day will come when gamers set up massive GPU farms in such a small country, so probably not any time soon because by nature the load is more spreadout and nobody hoards hundreds of GPUs in a silo for gaming.

[Dracarris]

22 minutes ago, MageTank said:

Realizes they are good at it, decides to setup a streaming environment. They start raking in views, start selling merch and now travels the world to various festivals. All of a sudden they have increased fuel usage due to shipping costs for their merch, started flying more frequently contributing to higher fuel usage in air, and perpetuated a lifestyle in which more people will attempt to follow with more purchased streaming equipment and more electricity used on lighting, video editing and branding

How many of gamers do follow that path? 0.000001 or 0.0000000001%? It's plain irrelevant what you paint here.

23 minutes ago, MageTank said:

You never explicitly explained what it is your neighbor is doing with their truck.

Exactly the same as me. Hauling around a single person, as 95% of people with these huge trucks do that I ever saw in the US. Well plus the useless idling in the driveway and covering distances that I walk or bike, as explained in my previous post.

 

It doesn't matter at all what you or I do with my car, how many mpg or whatever they actually consume. It was an analogy of two people doing fundamentally the same thing, owning and driving a car, but one causing much more damage. And I am pretty sure you know that.

 

And yes, actually F150-sized cars are among the stupidest things that ever came out of the US. Don't even get me started. Utter waste of resources, dangerous for everyone else on the street and for 95% of owners a compact car would totally suffice. I really hope the current fuel prices finally put an end to this stupid class of "cars". Inb4 "but I haul around heavy things all the time, well actually once or twice a year like everyone else but I am too lazy to rent a U-Haul on those occasions"

[pas008]

5 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

How many of gamers do follow that path? 0.000001 or 0.0000000001%? It's plain irrelevant what you paint here.

Exactly the same as me. Hauling around a single person, as 95% of people with these huge trucks do that I ever saw in the US. Well plus the useless idling in the driveway and covering distances that I walk or bike, as explained in my previous post.

 

It doesn't matter at all what you or I do with my car, how many mpg or whatever they actually consume. It was an analogy of two people doing fundamentally the same thing, owning and driving a car, but one causing much more damage. And I am pretty sure you know that.

 

And yes, actually F150-sized cars are among the stupidest things that ever came out of the US. Don't even get me started. Utter waste of resources, dangerous for everyone else on the street and for 95% of owners a compact car would totally suffice. I really hope the current fuel prices finally put an end to this stupid class of "cars". Inb4 "but I haul around heavy things all the time, well actually once or twice a year like everyone else but I am too lazy to rent a U-Haul on those occasions"

bolded quote

how do you figure? trucks haul shit literally so leaving shit in streets is ok? oh we have pros and cons of it lol

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, MageTank said:

Kisai, this is my problem with having a discussion with you on this forum. You seem incredibly intelligent, but you completely ignore the people you are conversing with and attempt to force your words down peoples throats when it has nothing to do with what they are saying. I have NEVER spoke about mining or gaming being worse than one another on this forum. You will NEVER find me comparing the two in that regard. I've only ever pointed out the hypocrisy between both camps whenever they move the goal post towards morals. 

My posts are generally include points to posts not quoted, particularly if I'm done with the conversation.

 

1 hour ago, MageTank said:

You honestly think the hobbiest miners are buying redundant power solutions and using gas powered generators? There is no ROI on that, lol. Who is guilty of "gross generalizations" now?

 

No, "hobby" miners just run their kit full tilt as long as there is power, period. They don't care if it causes the the building to catch fire. As far as I'm concerned, "hobby" miners do not exist.

 

 

[pas008]

3 minutes ago, Kisai said:

My posts are generally include points to posts not quoted, particularly if I'm done with the conversation.

 

No, "hobby" miners just run their kit full tilt as long as there is power, period. They don't care if it causes the the building to catch fire.

 

 

have any sources of this happening?

[Kisai]

Just now, pas008 said:

have any sources of this happening?

https://www.pcgamer.com/suspected-crypto-mining-farm-burns-down-in-thailand/

https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2020/11/25/russian-hospitalized-after-bitcoin-mining-farm-sets-apartment-on-fire/

https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/05/20/first-a-hum-and-then-a-bang-niagara-falls-residents-forced-to-reckon-with-crypto-mining/

 

Two of those are what people seem to think is "hobby" and one is commercial.

[pas008]

10 minutes ago, Kisai said:

https://www.pcgamer.com/suspected-crypto-mining-farm-burns-down-in-thailand/

https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2020/11/25/russian-hospitalized-after-bitcoin-mining-farm-sets-apartment-on-fire/

https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/05/20/first-a-hum-and-then-a-bang-niagara-falls-residents-forced-to-reckon-with-crypto-mining/

 

Two of those are what people seem to think is "hobby" and one is commercial.

so shit happens with plain dumb people

most miners actually care about resell value most i have met

now can i link sources on people just being plain dumb and setting fire because of ac units/furnances/computers/cars/ etc

you have some links and thank you but you are generalizing it like i can with anything want me find articles on ac units? random pc going up in smokes?

I just wanted to make the point that went way over your head lol like it happens everyday lol

[Kisai]

9 minutes ago, pas008 said:

 

I just wanted to make the point that went way over your head lol like it happens everyday lol

You were perfectly capable of googling the answer, so asking a question in bad faith that you didn't seriously care about the answer, doesn't give you a "gotcha".

 

The point is, "hobby" farms do not exist. Everyone that gets into crypto mining, is doing it with the goal of minmaxing it, and decades of grow-ops for cannabis has proven that people STILL do not give a crap about what happens to the building.

 

[MageTank]

57 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

How many of gamers do follow that path? 0.000001 or 0.0000000001%? It's plain irrelevant what you paint here.

Well, you fell for the trap perfectly. How many miners are contributing to environmental damage? The average miner puts their hardware to work when they are not using it. Your average miner isn't buying 50-100 GPUs and mining in their basements. I thought I had lost my form given my absence from this forum but apparently I am still pretty good at this, lol.

 

58 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

Exactly the same as me. Hauling around a single person, as 95% of people with these huge trucks do that I ever saw in the US. Well plus the useless idling in the driveway and covering distances that I walk or bike, as explained in my previous post.

Where exactly do you live in the US that you can walk/bike everywhere you go? I live out in the country, it takes me 30 miles to find civilization, let alone make it to work. Best believe if I am gonna spend 30 minutes driving to a grocery store, I'll bring my big yeehaw truck to fit as much groceries as I can in it to save on the $5 per gallon gas prices.

 

1 hour ago, Dracarris said:

It doesn't matter at all what you or I do with my car, how many mpg or whatever they actually consume. It was an analogy of two people doing fundamentally the same thing, owning and driving a car, but one causing much more damage. And I am pretty sure you know that.

I do know that. You are making the point that scale is relevant in moral conundrums, I am the one arguing that it isn't. Scale in and of itself paints only a partial picture, and its convenient to ignore that full picture if it fits an agenda.

 

1 hour ago, Dracarris said:

And yes, actually F150-sized cars are among the stupidest things that ever came out of the US. Don't even get me started. Utter waste of resources, dangerous for everyone else on the street and for 95% of owners a compact car would totally suffice. I really hope the current fuel prices finally put an end to this stupid class of "cars". Inb4 "but I haul around heavy things all the time, well actually once or twice a year like everyone else but I am too lazy to rent a U-Haul on those occasions"

I think I narrowed your location down to the city, lol. When they make a Prius that can handle farm work, or allow people to mass haul lumber, then you'll get your wish. Now I am not in disagreement that there are too many trucks on the road being used as a fashion statement (lifted, mudboggers, giant truck nuts hanging from the reese hitch), but to outright dismiss the utility these vehicles provides, well that is quite poignant to your argument as a whole. "I don't understand this, therefore it shouldn't exist".

 

30 minutes ago, Kisai said:

My posts are generally include points to posts not quoted, particularly if I'm done with the conversation.

Ah, so you make a habit of addressing people specifically with information that doesn't pertain to their individual posts? How has that been working out for you thus far?

 

31 minutes ago, Kisai said:

No, "hobby" miners just run their kit full tilt as long as there is power, period. They don't care if it causes the the building to catch fire. As far as I'm concerned, "hobby" miners do not exist.

Luckily its only as far as you're concerned. The rest of the world might still have a chance here. We have hobbyist miners on this very forum. I am friends with some hobbyist miners. I don't believe in crypto, I don't use crypto, yet I still understand why they do what they do. I don't need to buy into the crypto kool-aid to understand its something they enjoy doing, much like people don't need to buy into my destructive overclocking habits just to understand I enjoy killing my hardware in dumb ways.

 

I said it jokingly at first, but now I firmly believe it. When the miners are gone, they are gonna come for the overclockers next, lol.

[leadeater]

40 minutes ago, Kisai said:

https://www.pcgamer.com/suspected-crypto-mining-farm-burns-down-in-thailand/

https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2020/11/25/russian-hospitalized-after-bitcoin-mining-farm-sets-apartment-on-fire/

https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/05/20/first-a-hum-and-then-a-bang-niagara-falls-residents-forced-to-reckon-with-crypto-mining/

 

Two of those are what people seem to think is "hobby" and one is commercial.

Other than the Russian one since it has almost no details the other two certainly are not "hobby" miners.

 

Quote

reports that 72 servers were destroyed in the fire

Not 72 GPUs, 72 systems of X number of GPUs, def not "hobby".

 

Quote

resulting in thousands of mining rigs going offline.

Not hobby

[pas008]

21 minutes ago, Kisai said:

You were perfectly capable of googling the answer, so asking a question in bad faith that you didn't seriously care about the answer, doesn't give you a "gotcha".

 

The point is, "hobby" farms do not exist. Everyone that gets into crypto mining, is doing it with the goal of minmaxing it, and decades of grow-ops for cannabis has proven that people STILL do not give a crap about what happens to the building.

 

lol now crytominers are related to weed growers now

keep reaching lol

[Dracarris]

1 hour ago, MageTank said:

Well, you fell for the trap perfectly.

Oh lord. I hope you don't live in the delusion of thinking I didn't smell that from 100 miles away. And that wasn't a trap but just a fallacy.

1 hour ago, MageTank said:

How many miners are contributing to environmental damage?

Every. Single. One.

Every single miner uses their GPU(s) to a much higher extent in comparison to the average gamer and causes significantly more damage.

Every. Single. One.

1 hour ago, MageTank said:

The average miner puts their hardware to work when they are not using it.

And the average gamer doesn't use their hardware when they are not using it, which is true for the lion share of the average day. Plain and simple.

1 hour ago, MageTank said:

I thought I had lost my form given my absence from this forum but apparently I am still pretty good at this, lol.

I think I have to give a hard disagree on that and suggest you tone down your confidence levels a bit.

1 hour ago, MageTank said:

I am the one arguing that it isn't

yeah and that's simply not true. I don't know where some people here pull that crazy idea from. By that logic, murdering 1 or 1 Million people is equally bad. That's just utter BS.

1 hour ago, MageTank said:

Where exactly do you live in the US that you can walk/bike everywhere you go?

I never claimed that I can walk/bike everywhere, but to many places I can. That includes a 30min (one-way) bike ride to work which includes uphill sections, on a regular bike, not E-Bike.

1 hour ago, MageTank said:

Best believe if I am gonna spend 30 minutes driving to a grocery store, I'll bring my big yeehaw truck to fit as much groceries as I can in it to save on the $5 per gallon gas prices.

It's again delusional if you think you require such an utterly wasteful vehicle for grocery shopping. Unless you only go once a month, which obviously is super stupid as you then don't have any fresh food for a good chunk of the month. Well unless you pump chlorine and a shitload of preservatives into everything, so it might actually work in the US, lol.

1 hour ago, MageTank said:

but to outright dismiss the utility these vehicles provides, well that is quite poignant to your argument as a whole. "I don't understand this, therefore it shouldn't exist".

There is utility and actual use cases for these. The problem is the insane number of people that buy them without such a use case. That said, there are whole continents that do fine without them where people still need to haul around heavy machinery and equipment.

 

[MageTank]

2 hours ago, Dracarris said:

Oh lord. I hope you don't live in the delusion of thinking I didn't smell that from 100 miles away. And that wasn't a trap but just a fallacy.

Let me guess, false equivalence? If so, I am about to teach you the definition of irony while I am at it, lol.

 

2 hours ago, Dracarris said:

Every. Single. One.

Every single miner uses their GPU(s) to a much higher extent in comparison to the average gamer and causes significantly more damage.

Every. Single. One.

Exactly! And how many gamers are contributing to environmental damage? That's right... EVERY. SINGLE.ONE. Entertainment isn't free to make. There are companies keeping lights on, systems put towards rendering scenes, tons of e-waste put towards dev kits that get tossed away once the next shiny console launches. Tell me again how gamers are not part of the problem?

2 hours ago, Dracarris said:

And the average gamer doesn't use their hardware when they are not using it, which is true for the lion share of the average day. Plain and simple.

Ah, so it's not about what you are using it on, but the frequency of use? If they weren't using their GPU's for mining 24/7 but instead hosted a bare metal hypervisor and allowed people to remote in and game on it (Nvidia GRID, anyone?), it would be equally as bad by your logic? Point some of that environmental rhetoric at the cloud gaming companies and I'll take you more seriously in that endeavor.

 

2 hours ago, Dracarris said:

I think I have to give a hard disagree on that and suggest you tone down your confidence levels a bit.

Hey, let me have my delusions of grandeur. If you think I am overconfident, exploit that to your advantage. In the meantime, I am gonna continue admiring my own work until its no longer fun.

 

2 hours ago, Dracarris said:

yeah and that's simply not true. I don't know where some people here pull that crazy idea from. By that logic, murdering 1 or 1 Million people is equally bad. That's just utter BS.

No, by my logic, murdering 1 or murdering 1 million is still defined as murder. Your analogy is the one that is trying to make it seem like murdering 1 is okay since (for this analogy) gamers only murdered 1 person but miners murdered 1 million, so gamers shouldn't be under the same scrutiny. Meanwhile, the rest of the populace that has murdered nobody still wants to call both sides murderers. That is the camp I reside in, you just can't avoid grasping at weak justifications.

 

2 hours ago, Dracarris said:

I never claimed that I can walk/bike everywhere, but to many places I can. That includes a 30min (one-way) bike ride to work which includes uphill sections, on a regular bike, not E-Bike.

That's actually quite impressive, but I am content with not having the calf muscles of Lance Armstrong, so I'll have to give this a hard pass. Not to mention that I enjoy my free time too much to spend the majority of it huffing it on a bike back and forth from work.

 

2 hours ago, Dracarris said:

It's again delusional if you think you require such an utterly wasteful vehicle for grocery shopping. Unless you only go once a month, which obviously is super stupid as you then don't have any fresh food for a good chunk of the month. Well unless you pump chlorine and a shitload of preservatives into everything, so it might actually work in the US, lol.

Oh, not just grocery shopping, though I do fill up both my bed and cab when I go. We have these fancy inventions called "deep freezes" where we can store foods such as meats for a very extended period of time. The only thing I can't keep forever is fresh vegetables, but we live near farmers markets for stuff like that. We haul a lot of lumber, tons of metal for recycling and dirt/compost as well. What kind of vehicle would you recommend for me to be able to accomplish all of these tasks while still having the cab space to drive a family around? I for one chose the all new 2020 Chevy Silverado. Sam Elliot might not have narrated the commercial for my truck, but I can't help but see freedom-colored eagles every time I see it.

 

2 hours ago, Dracarris said:

There is utility and actual use cases for these. The problem is the insane number of people that buy them without such a use case. That said, there are whole continents that do fine without them where people still need to haul around heavy machinery and equipment.

Yeah, but entire continents aren't rural Ohio either, lol. Again, I am not disagreeing entirely. The goobers with the lift kits on their trucks and mud bogger tires on the freeway deserve to be laughed at, but the majority of people where I am from, genuinely need their vehicles to complete their daily tasks. You also forget that our rural roads are not touched by the city when ice gets bad. It's these backyard pickup truck drivers that plow the roads and salt for their neighbors. Don't write us off as "delusional" or overcompensating when we have genuine purposes for our yeehaw trucks. Just like you shouldn't write hobby miners off for wanting to use their GPU's beyond just gaming. See? Full circle again, lol.

 

[WolframaticAlpha]

Gaming and consequently all forms of computer use tend to harm the environment in one way or the other. Mining just happens to be extremely computationally intensive for something that doesn't have much utility in the life of a normal person(yet). Gaming at least is a way to unwind and also is quite a bit less intensive than mining. Looking just at the watts consumed by the computer for tasks is meaningless, because even things like f@h will be bundled into the same category as mining, when it is clear that folding actually has a utility to all people, whereas mining has almost a purely selfish motive(the only possible altruistic justification being that you are trying to change finance systems yada yada yada...). Looking at a utility to watts consumed ratio and it is clear that mining straight up loses.

All that being said, simply blaming miners is not a solution and shortages from here on out won't be driven by miners, but by industry trends at large. And even the demand from hobby miners isn't driving up the demand, and most large scale farms are switching to specialized hardware(ASICs), so most probably, mining isn't going to be much of a factor.

[MageTank]

1 minute ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

Gaming and consequently all forms of computer use tend to harm the environment in one way or the other. Mining just happens to be extremely computationally intensive for something that doesn't have much utility in the life of a normal person(yet). Gaming at least is a way to unwind and also is quite a bit less intensive than mining. Looking just at the watts consumed by the computer for tasks is meaningless, because even things like f@h will be bundled into the same category as mining, when it is clear that folding actually has a utility to all people, whereas mining has almost a purely selfish motive(the only possible justification being that you are trying to change finance systems yada yada yada...). Looking at a utility to watts consumed ratio and it is clear that mining straight up loses.

All that being said, simply blaming miners is not going to solve the issue anytime soon and shortages from here on out won't be driven by miners, but by industry trends at large.

This is a very interesting point, and one I am glad you posed instead of jumping onto the same "mining bad" bandwagon. Also throws a wrench into the moral dilemma when we've previously established that its the scale of environmental damage that matters and yet F@H is often altruistic in nature despite also being considered an environmental downside.

 

I am aware this won't speak for all miners, but many of my friends that got into mining used it as a means to understand cryptocurrency in general and the concept of trading. A few have even moved on to trading legitimate stocks after learning the ropes in crypto. After all, if you can survive that absurdly volatile mess, stocks should look easy in comparison, lol.

 

My entire point is relatively simple and has remained unchanged since my introduction on this forum. What people choose to do with the hardware purchased with their hard-earned money is up to them. Bending every decision into one of morality simply perverts these fundamentals and opens the floodgates for everyone to point fingers at each other and it only ends with everyone attempting to justify what they enjoy while demonizing others for what they enjoy. I am aware that the culture of this forum likely won't change, but luckily I stubborn enough to keep on trying.

[Moonzy]

24 minutes ago, MageTank said:

What people choose to do with the hardware purchased with their hard-earned money is up to them. Bending every decision into one of morality simply perverts these fundamentals and opens the floodgates for everyone to point fingers at each other and it only ends with everyone attempting to justify what they enjoy while demonizing others for what they enjoy. I am aware that the culture of this forum likely won't change, but luckily I stubborn enough to keep on trying.

I just enjoy the show now

No one's mind is ready to be changed, but that's why it's fun

 

I guess it boils down to this: MYOB

[MageTank]

16 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

I just enjoy the show now

No one's mind is ready to be changed, but that's why it's fun

 

I guess it boils down to this: MYOB

Oh, I've admitted many times on this forum when I've been wrong. I enjoy a change in perspective as it at least means I haven't hit that old age where I start refusing these "new fangled do-hickeys" and am capable of learning/adapting. The problem is, most people seem to think being wrong about something is inherently bad. Funny thing about crow is that it's an acquired taste. I am just extremely confident that I am in the right here, and will gladly die on this hill.

[LAwLz]

6 hours ago, pas008 said:

if you care so much about the the grid, environment, etc why are you bitching here instead of out protesting against millions of companies that do far worse

fyi if the electric company is going to supply them and they are paying then what is your problem? cause you cant get your gpu?

I also think it is important to note that pretty much every single estimate and fact we got points towards "only" about 10% of GPUs sold being used for mining. 

 

The entire supply chain of pretty much everything is completely fucked. Raspberry Pi:s are sold for 5 times the msrp. Network switches for things like hospitals are delayed by years.

Cars are so scares that manufacturers are shipping incomplete cars just to get SOMETHING out on the market. Hell, my 5 year old car has increased in value since I bought it. That is insane. Absolutely crazy. 

 

And yet, gamers seem completely in denial and think that miners are the root of all evil. If only miners didn't exist then you would be able to pick up a GPU at MSRP whenever you wanted! 

 

The pandemic? The war? The out of control inflation? Shipping issues? The increase in demand? The new consoles launching? Nahh... Can't put any blame on those things. It must be miners... 

[Dracarris]

4 hours ago, LAwLz said:

The pandemic? The war? The out of control inflation? Shipping issues? The increase in demand? The new consoles launching? Nahh... Can't put any blame on those things. It must be miners... 

And he continues to conveniently ignore the fact that not a single type of PC component had even remotely comparable availability issues to those of GPUs. He continues to ignore facts that he has been notified about time and time again in the past.

 

What‘s next? Are you going to claim again that these other components don‘t have supply chains that are as complex as those of GPUs? Do I have to explain to you again that the supply chain of mainboards is even more complex with more components and more component types, yet you could basically always buy whatever MB you wanted at reasonable prices? ffs!

 

And big FYI: The availability of GPUs rather sharply increased around the time „the war“ started with it now being at its best levels since the start of the freakin 3000 launch when all this happened. All this while the war is ongoing.

 

And which console exactly is easting away GPU wafers that otherwise could‘ve ended as 3080s, one of the cards that were the hardest to get?

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Dracarris said:

Are you going to claim again that these other components don‘t have supply chains that are as complex as those of GPUs?

There have been large shortages of both AMD CPUs and Intel CPUs, Intel CPUs manufactured on their own uncontested non-shared silicon fabs. There has been DRAM shortages and NAND shortages. And that's without including network cards and RAID cards.

 

1 hour ago, Dracarris said:

And big FYI: The availability of GPUs rather sharply increased around the time „the war“ started with it now being at its best levels since the start of the freakin 3000 launch when all this happened. All this while the war is ongoing.

Over time as buyers get the GPUs they want the backlog of demand decreases and thus availability increases. We're talking a very long time from release so this could well be solely due to time and nothing else at all. Also the war had no immediate impacts on silicon manufacturing and as yet only affects products produced there i.e. RAID cards.

 

Alternative suppliers can be found and have been, along with securing export capability from there despite the ongoing conflict. 

 

It also helps a lot when year over GPU shipments increases by 30%, I think that would have a lot to do with availability, would you not agree?

 

1 hour ago, Dracarris said:

And which console exactly is easting away GPU wafers that otherwise could‘ve ended as 3080s, one of the cards that were the hardest to get?

Any silicon fabrication since raw wafer supply shortage was/is an issue, so basically anything at all that uses 300mm wafers.

[Kisai]

11 hours ago, leadeater said:

Other than the Russian one since it has almost no details the other two certainly are not "hobby" miners.

 

Not 72 GPUs, 72 systems of X number of GPUs, def not "hobby".

 

Not hobby

Like I said "Hobby" miners do not exist. When people talk about defending mining, they make no distinction between their one-GPU "hobby", the guy with 72 GPU's in their apartment, and the data centers built 100 meters from a coal plant or natural gas well.

 

If you are mining with more than one GPU, that's not a hobby, that's decisive investment.

[Brooksie359]

9 hours ago, MageTank said:

Let me guess, false equivalence? If so, I am about to teach you the definition of irony while I am at it, lol.

 

Exactly! And how many gamers are contributing to environmental damage? That's right... EVERY. SINGLE.ONE. Entertainment isn't free to make. There are companies keeping lights on, systems put towards rendering scenes, tons of e-waste put towards dev kits that get tossed away once the next shiny console launches. Tell me again how gamers are not part of the problem?

Ah, so it's not about what you are using it on, but the frequency of use? If they weren't using their GPU's for mining 24/7 but instead hosted a bare metal hypervisor and allowed people to remote in and game on it (Nvidia GRID, anyone?), it would be equally as bad by your logic? Point some of that environmental rhetoric at the cloud gaming companies and I'll take you more seriously in that endeavor.

 

Hey, let me have my delusions of grandeur. If you think I am overconfident, exploit that to your advantage. In the meantime, I am gonna continue admiring my own work until its no longer fun.

 

No, by my logic, murdering 1 or murdering 1 million is still defined as murder. Your analogy is the one that is trying to make it seem like murdering 1 is okay since (for this analogy) gamers only murdered 1 person but miners murdered 1 million, so gamers shouldn't be under the same scrutiny. Meanwhile, the rest of the populace that has murdered nobody still wants to call both sides murderers. That is the camp I reside in, you just can't avoid grasping at weak justifications.

 

That's actually quite impressive, but I am content with not having the calf muscles of Lance Armstrong, so I'll have to give this a hard pass. Not to mention that I enjoy my free time too much to spend the majority of it huffing it on a bike back and forth from work.

 

Oh, not just grocery shopping, though I do fill up both my bed and cab when I go. We have these fancy inventions called "deep freezes" where we can store foods such as meats for a very extended period of time. The only thing I can't keep forever is fresh vegetables, but we live near farmers markets for stuff like that. We haul a lot of lumber, tons of metal for recycling and dirt/compost as well. What kind of vehicle would you recommend for me to be able to accomplish all of these tasks while still having the cab space to drive a family around? I for one chose the all new 2020 Chevy Silverado. Sam Elliot might not have narrated the commercial for my truck, but I can't help but see freedom-colored eagles every time I see it.

 

Yeah, but entire continents aren't rural Ohio either, lol. Again, I am not disagreeing entirely. The goobers with the lift kits on their trucks and mud bogger tires on the freeway deserve to be laughed at, but the majority of people where I am from, genuinely need their vehicles to complete their daily tasks. You also forget that our rural roads are not touched by the city when ice gets bad. It's these backyard pickup truck drivers that plow the roads and salt for their neighbors. Don't write us off as "delusional" or overcompensating when we have genuine purposes for our yeehaw trucks. Just like you shouldn't write hobby miners off for wanting to use their GPU's beyond just gaming. See? Full circle again, lol.

 

I agree that gaming does harm the environment but I also realize that you can still make comparisons. It's like how using the subway to get to work is environmentally harmful but also using a car is more environmentally harmful than using the subway. You can make that comparison and it would be totally fine. Granted this would be only for people who have both options. So if you have the choice between gaming and mining with your gpu mining will use more energy and be more harmful for the environment. That isn't to say gaming isn't environmentally harmful its just less so than mining. Also people who think people who have trucks are wasteful probably don't live in areas with large amounts of snow. I can't even remember how many times at this point that I have used my truck to help pull out friends and families cars that get stuck in the snow. As much as I would like to not have to use extra gas on 4 wheel drive its just not practical for where I live.