Epic States - Dozens of states side with Epic in Apple App Store appeal

[Lightwreather]

Summary

States are siding with Epic Games as the developer appeals a lower court ruling in its antitrust lawsuit against Apple over app store fees and payment processing.

The attorneys general for 34 states and the District of Columbia have filed an amicus brief on behalf of Epic. Utah led the brief, claiming that “Apple’s conduct has harmed and is harming mobile app developers and millions of citizens.”

 

Quotes

Quote

The states’ amicus brief has a relatively narrow focus compared with the arguments Epic is making in its appeal. The bulk of it hinges on Apple’s contract with developers. The attorneys general say that the lower court “erred in deciding that Section 1 of the Sherman Act does not apply to a ‘unilateral contract.’” They argue that “excluding contracts like Apple’s simply because Apple ‘unilaterally imposed’ the terms makes bad antitrust public policy.”

Including unilateral contracts under Section 1 of the Sherman Act, though, is contested in cases like this since it would imply that Apple is conspiring to restrain trade. The problem is that Apple hasn’t been accused of conspiring with another company. The states are arguing that the problem isn’t the contract, per se, but rather Apple’s conduct.

The states also argue that the lower court didn’t fully account for the positive and negative effects of Apple’s conduct in the context of antitrust law. Essentially, they’re asking the appeals court to redo that analysis. 

“As Epic points out, Apple amassed billions in supracompetitive profits from one billion iPhone users,” the brief says. “Without balancing, this type of immense harm to consumers can go unanswered with just the slightest showing of procompetitive benefit. The Court should require Apple to account for its conduct under a complete rule of reason analysis.”

 

My thoughts

So apparently 35 states are siding with Epic (They are (in alphabetical order): Alaska, Arkansas, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, D.C. , Florida, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Dakota, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Texas, Utah (submitter), Vermont, and Washington (I found this courtesy of a commentor on ars, link)). Well, that's a lot of states. I'm not going to take a stand on which side I think is in the right, I'll leave that to the courts to decide, but it's still kinda ... sublime?... to see these many states take a stand on Epic's side of the argument. Well, here's to fairer and more open app eco-systems.

 

Sources

ArsTechnica

Amicus Brief (Ars Technica CDN)

[Fasterthannothing]

I hope they make Apple allow sideloadong, 3rd party payments, and helps lower fees for devs. Apples walled garden is absurd in 2022 people should be able to do whatever the heck they want with the hardware they paid for. 

[JLO64]

Something I think is worth pointing out is that California, the state that is arguably the most important towards this case, did not join in on this group. They’re the state where the initial lawsuit had its court hearing and it’s where Apple is headquartered. If they were to take a side in this fight they may have a bit of an impact.

[Helpful Tech Witch]

55 minutes ago, SlidewaysZ said:

3rd party payments,

The original ruling allowed these, but apple got a delay on that order and apealed

[Forbidden Wafer]

1 hour ago, JLO64 said:

Something I think is worth pointing out is that California, the state that is arguably the most important towards this case, did not join in on this group. They’re the state where the initial lawsuit had its court hearing and it’s where Apple is headquartered. If they were to take a side in this fight they may have a bit of an impact.

They would not be crazy to go against a tech company, unless they wanted to close the state. 

[HarryNyquist]

Apple should add the ability to sideload.

 

I'm not going to use it, mind you, but I want the ability to do it.

[Brooksie359]

2 hours ago, SlidewaysZ said:

I hope they make Apple allow sideloadong, 3rd party payments, and helps lower fees for devs. Apples walled garden is absurd in 2022 people should be able to do whatever the heck they want with the hardware they paid for. 

There are a surprising amount of people that buy apple because it's a walled garden and that helps with security of the device. While I personally have an android because I prefer the freedom it gives I also don't see why Apple should be forced to do so with their products. I mean it's not like the have the wall garden for no reason at all. 

[Fasterthannothing]

5 hours ago, Grand Admiral Thrawn said:

 

Take into account that some people buy their hardware for this - the inability to tamper with it, by literally anyone at least when it comes to encryption.

 

Just look at the way you can remove the Factory Reset Protection on Android phones while it is impossible to remove the iCloud lock.

GreyKey and some Israeli hacking firms have something to say about that the iPhone is no more secure than Android plain and simple. If someone wants into your phone they are getting in no matter what brand you bought. 

[Arika]

Good. But i wonder how many of these states will flip flop after getting an anonymous donation

[WhitetailAni]

7 hours ago, Grand Admiral Thrawn said:

while it is impossible to remove the iCloud lock.

Uhhh....

No?

It does require a jailbreak which limits its capabilities somewhat (any device on iOS 15 can't be bypassed as of right now) but that's a fair number of devices out there.

[thechinchinsong]

9 hours ago, SlidewaysZ said:

I hope they make Apple allow sideloadong, 3rd party payments, and helps lower fees for devs. Apples walled garden is absurd in 2022 people should be able to do whatever the heck they want with the hardware they paid for. 

If Apple every added these features, I can't imagine Android being able to compete. I know I'd switch if I could easily sideload certain apps I use on Android that aren't available on iOS.

[Fasterthannothing]

1 hour ago, thechinchinsong said:

If Apple every added these features, I can't imagine Android being able to compete. I know I'd switch if I could easily sideload certain apps I use on Android that aren't available on iOS.

Competition is never a bad thing. Right now we think we have competition but really it's stifled between two brands that aren't cross compatible in a lot of ways. I mean imagine Android running on an iPhone or vice versa. 

[Gamer Schnitzel]

Anyone who does not side with Epic is an absolute moron.

Any company that manages to be the first one to hit a market cap of $1tn are definitely charging too much money irrelevant of what product they sell.

[Brooksie359]

4 hours ago, SlidewaysZ said:

GreyKey and some Israeli hacking firms have something to say about that the iPhone is no more secure than Android plain and simple. If someone wants into your phone they are getting in no matter what brand you bought. 

I mean tbf there have been many cases where governments wanted a backdoor or a way to get into Apple phones for investigative reasons and Apple refused and they ended up not being able to get the data off the phone so idk if something has happened since then but it sure was harder to get into an iPhone than an android at that time. Also I would imagine that getting into an android phone would be significantly easier than an apple phone. 

[WolframaticAlpha]

Microsoft's method of allowing verified third party payment solutions makes sense. 

 

Also why no link apple >:(( Their no button policy would need a bit a of justification for me(look, I am not talking from the corporate side, they obv want to make more ) because it seems a bit stupid.

 

I get why apple wouldn't want sideloading(ie piracy). A lot fmreally good apps are iPad only because of the piracy happening on Android(flexcil, goodnotes5 etc). An xbox dev mode like setting would be really nice. On the whole, while I do want sideloading, I get why apple and app devs won't.

 

1 hour ago, Gamer Schnitzel said:

Anyone who does not side with Epic is an absolute moron.

Any company that manages to be the first one to hit a market cap of $1tn are definitely charging too much money irrelevant of what product they sell.

Or they are selling your data >;) (ohmygod stop the autoemojiization)

 

 

5 hours ago, SlidewaysZ said:

GreyKey and some Israeli hacking firms have something to say about that the iPhone is no more secure than Android plain and simple. If someone wants into your phone they are getting in no matter what brand you bought. 

Android and ios are bad on different terms. On Android, tere are a lot of attacks taking place through the store. This still exists on the app Store, though to a lesser degree. A larger number of ios exploits are specialized ones that use a variety of vectors. Android has exploits that ios doesn't and ios has exploits that Android doesn't. 

 

If you want actual security: 1. Use common sense 2. Update your software 

[RejZoR]

13 hours ago, SlidewaysZ said:

I hope they make Apple allow sideloadong, 3rd party payments, and helps lower fees for devs. Apples walled garden is absurd in 2022 people should be able to do whatever the heck they want with the hardware they paid for. 

I mean, if you hate Apple so much, have you ever considered buying any of the 300 variants of high end Android phones which can do all these wonderful things? I've knowingly gone with iPhone and its limitations because I was fed up with Android's bullshit. And I'm fine with it because it works great and I realized 150 launchers are all useless and all the hacks and tweaks always cause more problems than good. And ability to flash ROM's and sideload apps is greatly overrated and overhyped.

 

Sure it would be nice, but realistically, WHY? Payments and app store policy, whatever, do what needs to be done, but demanding the rest as far as OS goes is kinda funny (about as funny as people jailbreaking iPhones instead of just buying and Android phone). It's literally what makes iOS and iPhones great, even if Android fanboys don't like it.

[WhitetailAni]

2 hours ago, SlidewaysZ said:

I mean imagine Android running on an iPhone or vice versa. 

https://projectsandcastle.org

Sure it isn’t exactly done yet, but it at least mostly works

[RejZoR]

Again, why? If you're fine with Android, why would you go through all the trouble of hacking Android onto iPhone when I don't know, Galaxy S22 that'll soon be released is perfectly comparable with latest iPhone without all the fiddling and problems? Even with long and timely software support that is a rare thing in Android market? I just don't get the people who purposely make their lives difficult for things that don't have to be. Or are all of these people Alfa Romeo drivers, you know, the sorts that just can't wait for things to break down so they can get their fingers dirty?

[mr moose]

Good to see governments kicking some weight behind fair trade, even if it is just for PR with software developers. 

[RejZoR]

51 minutes ago, Grand Admiral Thrawn said:

Because as we all know, every random thief is a cybersecurity expert.

Also iPhones, because they receive security updates for very long time will in fact evenually get updated. Same can't be said for like 3/4 of Android phones. So, that's that too...

[Vishera]

5 hours ago, mr moose said:

Good to see governments kicking some weight behind fair trade, even if it is just for PR with software developers. 

It shows that the FTC is an utter failure in handling antitrust violations.

The FTC is the federal body that is suppose to regulate and prosecute antitrust.

Since the FTC failed,state level actors and private ones are doing what the FTC should be doing.

[dizmo]

Why wouldn't you have a stance on this? You're just going to wait for the courts to decide so you can side with the "popular opinion?" Odd stance to take. 

 

Personally I think Apple should get to charge what they want. It's their store. Don't like it? Don't make apps. No one forces you to follow that as a career. It's funny how so many side with Epic as if they're some white knight, when they try to lock people into only buying from them...kind of a parrellel, no? 

 

19 hours ago, SlidewaysZ said:

I hope they make Apple allow sideloadong, 3rd party payments, and helps lower fees for devs. Apples walled garden is absurd in 2022 people should be able to do whatever the heck they want with the hardware they paid for. 

I agree with the latter two but not really with sideloading. It would tarnish the reputation of the device for the sake of the miniscule percentage of people that would use it. 

19 hours ago, JLO64 said:

Something I think is worth pointing out is that California, the state that is arguably the most important towards this case, did not join in on this group. They’re the state where the initial lawsuit had its court hearing and it’s where Apple is headquartered. If they were to take a side in this fight they may have a bit of an impact.

Considering Californian cities pay millions of dollars to keep Apple there, this is not at all surprising. 

18 hours ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

They would not be crazy to go against a tech company, unless they wanted to close the state. 

Fun fact; California was a desirable state long before big tech was there

12 hours ago, SlidewaysZ said:

GreyKey and some Israeli hacking firms have something to say about that the iPhone is no more secure than Android plain and simple. If someone wants into your phone they are getting in no matter what brand you bought. 

People aren't worried about tech commandos. They're worried about Joe Blow. 

10 hours ago, thechinchinsong said:

If Apple every added these features, I can't imagine Android being able to compete. I know I'd switch if I could easily sideload certain apps I use on Android that aren't available on iOS.

Why? There's still lots of things you can do on an Android phone that you can't do on an iPhone, not to mention the selection of the form factors. 

8 hours ago, SlidewaysZ said:

Competition is never a bad thing. Right now we think we have competition but really it's stifled between two brands that aren't cross compatible in a lot of ways. I mean imagine Android running on an iPhone or vice versa. 

It's not that we've never had competition. It's that none of the competition has been able to gain a strong enough foothold to gain traction. Until someone puts in the work to make a truly great ecosystem, that's not going to happen. Frankly, it's probably already too late. I don't imagine iOS would run great on an Android handset. 

8 hours ago, Gamer Schnitzel said:

Anyone who does not side with Epic is an absolute moron.

Any company that manages to be the first one to hit a market cap of $1tn are definitely charging too much money irrelevant of what product they sell.

What? The fact they've been successful and have a high market cap means we should all be against them? What a ridiculous stance. It doesn't mean they charge too much, it means they have a product people want and they buy it en masse. Companies are free to charge what they want. 

6 hours ago, RejZoR said:

I mean, if you hate Apple so much, have you ever considered buying any of the 300 variants of high end Android phones which can do all these wonderful things? I've knowingly gone with iPhone and its limitations because I was fed up with Android's bullshit. And I'm fine with it because it works great and I realized 150 launchers are all useless and all the hacks and tweaks always cause more problems than good. And ability to flash ROM's and sideload apps is greatly overrated and overhyped.

 

Sure it would be nice, but realistically, WHY? Payments and app store policy, whatever, do what needs to be done, but demanding the rest as far as OS goes is kinda funny (about as funny as people jailbreaking iPhones instead of just buying and Android phone). It's literally what makes iOS and iPhones great, even if Android fanboys don't like it.

LOL why do you take that tone? He didn't say he hated Apple. You inferring that is odd. Also not everyone that uses an Android phone instead of an Apple phone is an Android fanboy. You make yourself sound like a massive Apple shill, which really detracts from the good things you put forth. 

 

Personally launchers are the last reason I really have for using an Android phone. Apple has finally nailed battery life, and their addition of high refresh screens is great. I just like being able to place my icons where I want, and adding gestures. It's two things that seem like they'd be pretty simple to add. Every iOS release I hole they'll do it, but so far no luck. 

[Vishera]

26 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Personally I think Apple should get to charge what they want. It's their store.

Personally I think Epic should get to choose what payment processing they want. It's their game.

...

It would have been fine if Apple did not have a monopoly over the store front.

But Apple does have a monopoly,it's not like Epic can release their game on a different store for iOS users.

IT'S THE ONLY STORE ON iOS.

And in addition to that you have the monopolization of payment processing methods.

It's anti competitive,it's harmful to the market,to app developers,to consumers and it's clearly illegal.

[Forbidden Wafer]

26 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Fun fact; California was a desirable state long before big tech was there

This reminds me of a Finnish colleague, saying how MSFT killing Nokia was first seen as catastrophic but turned out to be better for the country.

A lot of smaller companies creating a lot more products and services, making up more money and employing more people,

not having enough power to manipulate the government, etc, etc.

[sir_A4D_]

2 hours ago, Vishera said:

t would have been fine if Apple did not have a monopoly over the store front.

But Apple does have a monopoly,it's not like Epic can release their game on a different store for iOS users.

IT'S THE ONLY STORE ON iOS.

And in addition to that you have the monopolization of payment processing methods.

It's anti competitive,it's harmful to the market,to app developers,to consumers and it's clearly illegal.

Exactly, this is the point that  most seem to miss. Apple has absolute monopolistic control over the user’s access to third party apps . Apple decides who stays on the apps store . if for any reason (unrelated to security, #shocker : maybe the company doesn’t wanna pay outrageous fees to Apple anymore ) Apple has a row with the  app provider, apple kicks out the app provider and the user is left in limbo with no other way to install the app. 
 

This is without doubt anticompetitive behavior on the mobile app market . Whilst infringing users access to third party services . 
 

apple already allows side loading / alternative ways to install apps on Mac OS and could easily do the same for iOS , no excuses . 
 

Mobile phones market is just as important as laptops/desktop market in this era .