AirTags used to stalk women

[Montana One-Six]

18 minutes ago, AnonymousGuy said:

So the anti-stalking feature worked as intended and this is basically non-issue.

Did it? To me 5 hours is an awful lot of time and I would certainly not call it a non-issue.

 

21 minutes ago, AnonymousGuy said:

Hell get someone's license plate and you have their home address for $5 lookup fee.

Sure but other than an address that doesn't tell you anything about their whereabouts. Plus in most countries that isn't even possible.

 

25 minutes ago, AnonymousGuy said:

Spend $20 and I can find every cell phone number you've ever had.

I bet my phone number you won't find out any number I have used in the last 10 years for 20 bucks. Besides that also doesn't tell you anything about their whereabouts. This is also not possible in every country.

[wanderingfool2]

55 minutes ago, AnonymousGuy said:

So the anti-stalking feature worked as intended and this is basically non-issue.

 

It's also not like stalking is a new phenomenon or as though Airtags are really a huge improvement in a stalking toolkit.  Hell get someone's license plate and you have their home address for $5 lookup fee.  Spend $20 and I can find every cell phone number you've ever had.

It took 5 hours before she got the notification, if she didn't use an iPhone she would have likely led the stalker right to her home.

 

With the advent of technology it has made stalking so much more easier, which is a scary thing...and AirTags don't help with the situation (like I said, it's like a double edged sword).  There is a considerable difference between being able to get an AirTag and getting a license plate and resolving it to a residence.

 

A perfect scenario is what happened here.  A woman at a bar, getting an AirTag planted on her...a crime of opportunity.  Had the concept of airtags not existed, could she still be stalked, of course, but airtags make it a whole lot easier.  It literally opens up a whole new world of opportunities for creeps who try following people home (and sadly it happens more than people think).

[AnonymousGuy]

3 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

A perfect scenario is what happened here.  A woman at a bar, getting an AirTag planted on her...a crime of opportunity.  Had the concept of airtags not existed, could she still be stalked, of course, but airtags make it a whole lot easier.  It literally opens up a whole new world of opportunities for creeps who try following people home (and sadly it happens more than people think).

Except that airtag is tied to an iCloud account and Apple probably already has a law enforcement portal for subpoenas to get this info.  So...sure you figured out where some chick lives easier than just following her home but you've also now guaranteed you're going to get caught.

[wanderingfool2]

9 minutes ago, AnonymousGuy said:

Except that airtag is tied to an iCloud account and Apple probably already has a law enforcement portal for subpoenas to get this info.  So...sure you figured out where some chick lives easier than just following her home but you've also now guaranteed you're going to get caught.

Unless it's changed, you can effectively create an iCloud account without having to provide personal information.

[ToboRobot]

I think that this has merely made it easier to detect, and more likely more likely to report these when found and get media traction.  This technology was already available, and was probably being used before Apple made it famous. 

Perhaps this is good, bad actors will use technology and education is required to be safe when malicious actors are active.

 

How do we detect non AirTag GPS trackers? 

[Roswell]

2 hours ago, SlidewaysZ said:

How in what planet do you need a GPS like system to find whatever you stuck the air tag on? I mean a tile device works just fine and no one is getting stalked with those.

 

2 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

A tile device works with bluetooth, so someone can't be stalked as easily with a tile device.

That is because a tile works on bluetooth, and doesn't require an iphone if you don't want to find if you've been tracked for 8 hours.

Tile functions in literally the same way as AirTags... 

 

Tile sources location data, just like Apple, from nearby users with the Tile app installed in addition to the owner's bluetooth connection. 

[Roswell]

6 hours ago, StDragon said:

What I do see happening however is some law that requires ID and a background check (felons banned for example) 

What? That's never going to happen. You can't just blanket ban "felons" from whatever you'd like. You would have a tsunami of constitutional lawsuits in a fraction of a second. 

 

Do you realize how many people in the US have a felony? Over 20 million... close to 8% of adults. 

 

 

[Zodiark1593]

1 hour ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Unless it's changed, you can effectively create an iCloud account without having to provide personal information.

A tad more involved, but not much more so. 
 

The iCloud account would’ve had to have not had any personally identifiable devices attached to preserve anonymity, as device serials are stored in iCloud that can be subpoenaed, and purchase tracked, with potentially a name attached. Use of a cellular plan for this purpose also risks identifying oneself, as logged accesses may be followed up on by determined law enforcement. 
 

Of course, buying a device used or in-cash and using exclusively on public wifi (or prepaid plans that don’t require ID) would mitigate the above. 

[wanderingfool2]

40 minutes ago, Zodiark1593 said:

A tad more involved, but not much more so. 
 

The iCloud account would’ve had to have not had any personally identifiable devices attached to preserve anonymity, as device serials are stored in iCloud that can be subpoenaed, and purchase tracked, with potentially a name attached. Use of a cellular plan for this purpose also risks identifying oneself, as logged accesses may be followed up on by determined law enforcement. 
 

Of course, buying a device used or in-cash and using exclusively on public wifi (or prepaid plans that don’t require ID) would mitigate the above. 

If I were to do something like that, I'd be paying in cash for a sim card effectively making a burner phone; and registering with fake information.

 

The other issue being depending on the AirTag TOS, they might not really be allowed to give out information to the police...especially given a "crime" wasn't committed (or rather, finding an AirTag in your pocket isn't enough to really charge anyone).  Case in point, in this case she apparently said a police report wasn't made as no crime was commited, https://www.today.com/news/news/apple-airtag-tracking-rcna11597

Quote

She said she reported the incident to the police, but added she couldn’t file a police report because no crime had been committed. The NYPD said they could not discuss the case.

So yea, if it's true that no police report was created, then Apple would not give out the information (I'm assuming).  I am assuming as well, but if it was a GPS tracker it would be a different story, but given that these are button sized I'd assume one could argue it "accidentally" got there.

 

On a side note, man the laws really do need to get changed if they consider it not a crime.

[mr moose]

4 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

Something to mention: Apple released an Android App that allows you to detect tags that have been away from the owner enough to be flagged as lost. So you *do not* need an iPhone to tell if you're being tracked.

 

Pretty shit direction humanity is going when we need to install software to make sure we aren't being tracked.   As if having to install or use antivirus and anti malware software wasn't already annoying enough,  if tech keeps going this way we are all going to have to buy top tier phones solely so we can run all the apps required to maintain a modicum of privacy.

[EphraimK]

12 hours ago, FakeKGB said:

"Hey Steve, why is the tag saying it's at that sewer grate?"
"Dunno, maybe the lady climbed down to escape us?"

 

I'm glad that this doesn't allow tracking any AirTag and instead being like "hey someone stuck an AirTag on you and now you can be located anywhere".

$10 says parents buy these up and plant them on their kids.

$10 they don't. My dad doesn't even know what an AirTag is, and he's known how to set up a remote desktop connection since the beginning on Windows 7

[WhitetailAni]

Just now, EDKTech said:

$10 they don't. My dad doesn't even know what an AirTag is, and he's known how to set up a remote desktop connection since the beginning on Windows 7

I know so many people at school whose families that practically live and breathe Apple stuff. AirTags are definitely on their radar; I heard one of these people mention their parents discussing them once.

[RedRound2]

This is one of those things where we have a very good useful applications for a device, but the same application can also be used for nefarious purposes as well. Just like you know, knife, gun, etc etc. _{(although gun im not entirely sure what's the useful application, but I guess my american friends would disagree )}

 

I guess one thing Apple should do is reduce the timer to maybe 30 min where if an unknown AirTag follows you without the owner of the AirTag being present. For android devices, it is a little more complicated unless Google wants to support this natively. Hopefully a standard might arise out of all this within a few years to cross track, similar to the covid exposure notification.

 

Second thing I guess is that Apple should make it clear that if AirTags is used for stalking and is consequently found by law enforcement, by complaint - Apple can hand over basic details like phone number and address of the owner to the law agency. The second point is mostly given, but it should be given as a clear disclaimer to a new user to discourage such use (like maybe right after the setup screen)

 

Edit: Totally forgot that increased time is sort of a protection in case your items get intentionally stolen and the deferred time is for you to get enough time to realize your item got stolen without the thief getting to know it's AirTagged.

 

That makes the possible solutions to this problem much harder

[suicidalfranco]

8 hours ago, Zodiark1593 said:

I’ve an Airtag in my camera bag (sewn it between the layers rather than dropping it in a pocket), the thing carrying some $2500 worth of camera and lenses. I certainly hope not to need to use the Airtag, but that is another layer or safety net to save me a potential (pretty big) loss. 

And in this scenario if a thief stole your camera bag, after 5 hours he'd be notified of. Being followed  by an unknown airTag

 

Airtag are the dumbest thing ever frankly.

[Video Beagle]

3 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

Airtag are the dumbest thing ever frankly.

Because @Zodiark1593 has potentially 5 hours of tracking data to find their $2500 equipment vs having no data whatsoever. Yeah, I see how they're dumb.

 

[mr moose]

11 hours ago, Roswell said:

What? That's never going to happen. You can't just blanket ban "felons" from whatever you'd like. You would have a tsunami of constitutional lawsuits in a fraction of a second. 

 

Do you realize how many people in the US have a felony? Over 20 million... close to 8% of adults. 

 

 

The reality is that US citizens do not care about the constitution unless it supports their personal agenda.  Think of how many politicians have broken the constitution over the last 2 elections with vocal support from at least half the voting US,  or the fact that the 14th amendment says all citizens should have equal protection under the law yet that doesn't happen,  with example that until recently marriage laws were protecting heterosexuals only.  

 

With that said, I believe if you live in a community and you pose an evidenced threat to that community then you lose the right to benefits of that community.   I really don't think that is such a bad thing.

[suicidalfranco]

2 hours ago, Video Beagle said:

Because @Zodiark1593 has potentially 5 hours of tracking data to find their $2500 equipment vs having no data whatsoever. Yeah, I see how they're dumb.

 

Oh yeah good luck confronting a thief on your own.

[Fasterthannothing]

12 hours ago, Roswell said:

 

Tile functions in literally the same way as AirTags... 

 

Tile sources location data, just like Apple, from nearby users with the Tile app installed in addition to the owner's bluetooth connection. 

Did they add that functionality recently because from what I recall they used to only work in range of Bluetooth. Which is how they should work. I frankly think people should be more worried about the privacy implications that these devices are creating. I mean a network specifically built to track you basically sounds like a big data privacy nightmare.

[Commodus]

There's definitely a whiff of the Only Apple Does Bad Things mindset in this thread.

 

The issue isn't how AirTags work on a basic level; as others have pointed out, they work much in the same way as Bluetooth trackers from Tile, Chipolo and many other brands (UWB is the exception, but it's only useful to the tag owner when they're very close). It's that Apple may be providing too long an interval before it makes clear that you've been tagged by someone else, and that Android users don't have an automatic way to find those unwanted tags. And to some extent, Apple has inadvertently highlighted a problem that was always there by making these trackers more popular than before.

 

And that's the frustration — there are reasons to criticize Apple, but they're not as huge as claimed and require nuance that frankly gets lost in discussions like this. Apple isn't some mustache-twirling cartoon villain that's fine to allow stalkers as long as its bank account gets larger; it's a business that made some rational strategy and tech decisions, but might not have considered every possible implication.

[Stahlmann]

29 minutes ago, Commodus said:

There's definitely a whiff of the Only Apple Does Bad Things mindset in this thread.

 

The issue isn't how AirTags work on a basic level; as others have pointed out, they work much in the same way as Bluetooth trackers from Tile, Chipolo and many other brands (UWB is the exception, but it's only useful to the tag owner when they're very close). It's that Apple may be providing too long an interval before it makes clear that you've been tagged by someone else, and that Android users don't have an automatic way to find those unwanted tags. And to some extent, Apple has inadvertently highlighted a problem that was always there by making these trackers more popular than before.

 

And that's the frustration — there are reasons to criticize Apple, but they're not as huge as claimed and require nuance that frankly gets lost in discussions like this. Apple isn't some mustache-twirling cartoon villain that's fine to allow stalkers as long as its bank account gets larger; it's a business that made some rational strategy and tech decisions, but might not have considered every possible implication.

I'd argue they have all the necessary resources to think through these scenarios before they get called out in public.

[dalekphalm]

2 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

Oh yeah good luck confronting a thief on your own.

If you have location data, you can ask the police to go with you. Whether they will would largely depend on your specific local police department.

[Montana One-Six]

52 minutes ago, Commodus said:

There's definitely a whiff of the Only Apple Does Bad Things mindset in this thread.

 

The issue isn't how AirTags work on a basic level; as others have pointed out, they work much in the same way as Bluetooth trackers from Tile, Chipolo and many other brands (UWB is the exception, but it's only useful to the tag owner when they're very close). It's that Apple may be providing too long an interval before it makes clear that you've been tagged by someone else, and that Android users don't have an automatic way to find those unwanted tags. And to some extent, Apple has inadvertently highlighted a problem that was always there by making these trackers more popular than before.

 

And that's the frustration — there are reasons to criticize Apple, but they're not as huge as claimed and require nuance that frankly gets lost in discussions like this. Apple isn't some mustache-twirling cartoon villain that's fine to allow stalkers as long as its bank account gets larger; it's a business that made some rational strategy and tech decisions, but might not have considered every possible implication.

Like I said apple didn't create the issue but they just made it easier. AirTags work without a third party app whereas for Tile and all the others you need an app for it to work as far as I understand. Which means if you use Tile and no one near the Tile has the app it won't send any location data. For AirTag you just need an iPhone for it to work so even people who never heard of it and are near the Tag will send location data. Considering how many iPhones are out there AirTags are probably working a lot better.

[dalekphalm]

2 minutes ago, Montana16 said:

Like I said apple didn't create the issue but they just made it easier. AirTags work without a third party app whereas for Tile and all the others you need an app for it to work as far as I understand. Which means if you use Tile and no one near the Tile has the app it won't send any location data. For AirTag you just need an iPhone for it to work so even people who never heard of it and are near the Tag will send location data. Considering how many iPhones are out there AirTags are probably working a lot better.

This is true - but personally, I'd suggest that makes it more useful for the intended purpose (finding stuff you lost or got stolen from you).

 

For a stalker, using let's say a Tile vs an AirTag, assuming they're able to tag you to begin with, they can likely still follow the tag from a distance and track it's progress. No it won't be as accurate as an AirTag with a bunch of nearby iPhones, but if you're stalking someone, I doubt it'll be as much of a hinderance.

 

In any case - some consideration does need to be made about all types of tracking technology - particularly smartphone enabled Bluetooth tracking.

 

Sooner or later, Android will have something similar baked into the OS, so it's just a matter of time until non-AirTag trackers are just as accurate.

[wanderingfool2]

1 hour ago, Commodus said:

There's definitely a whiff of the Only Apple Does Bad Things mindset in this thread.

Well at least for myself one of the reasons why I dislike Apple in terms of this product is the fact that they advertise it as "designed to discourage unwanted tracking".  Yet it wasn't until public warnings by police that they decide to launch the Android app.  When they launched it, they also effectively utilized a near monopoly of phones to effectively make the resolution of AirTags a lot more accurate [As opposed to Tile, which sold 35 million devices...so assuming the average user has 2 Tile products that's about 5% of the population likely max...and given what some people discuss about Tile, the actual ability to track something accurately is quite bad].

 

Also Apple touts privacy, and they are the ones that effectively enabled their smart-phones to enable tracking.

[Commodus]

28 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Well at least for myself one of the reasons why I dislike Apple in terms of this product is the fact that they advertise it as "designed to discourage unwanted tracking".  Yet it wasn't until public warnings by police that they decide to launch the Android app.  When they launched it, they also effectively utilized a near monopoly of phones to effectively make the resolution of AirTags a lot more accurate [As opposed to Tile, which sold 35 million devices...so assuming the average user has 2 Tile products that's about 5% of the population likely max...and given what some people discuss about Tile, the actual ability to track something accurately is quite bad].

 

Also Apple touts privacy, and they are the ones that effectively enabled their smart-phones to enable tracking.

I do think Apple was concerned about unwanted tracking, but didn't fully grasp what was necessary to handle that (particularly better Android support).

 

Apple wasn't really using a "near monopoly" (it doesn't even have a monopoly in the US!). It was taking advantage of making both the tags and the OS they pair with. The added resolution is a good thing if used responsibly, and Apple has been opening Find My to third-party devices. I'd just like to see Apple make sure third-party trackers get reasonably solid treatment and that people are more aware of rogue tracking attempts.