In the US, life cycle emissions for EVs are 60-68% lower than gasoline.

[atxcyclist]

8 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

But theres a solution… you dont own the vehicle youre driving and when its time to refueling you just swap , at a "charge station" (including charge station sushi, if you so wish… )

 

Its a non issue basically.

 

yup. 

That’s not a solution to me though, I am a gear-head and want to own my own vehicle. I don’t have any interest in long-term renting transportation, I wouldn’t even lease a car.

[Senzelian]

18 hours ago, poochyena said:

Why on earth would you ever do that? Thats a god-awful idea and completely unnecessary.

So people can fill up their cars of course.

 

11 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

But theres a solution… you dont own the vehicle youre driving and when its time to refueling you just swap , at a "charge station"

I'm an IT technician. I've got tools and other stuff in my car. If I'd have to change it every time I'm "charging", then I'd go insane.

[hollyh88]

7 hours ago, Quackers101 said:

Well they do fear some terror attacks, since parts of the country is under the water level, and destruction to the dam could cause issues.

no we do not. never in my 23 years have i heard anyone here be scared for terrorist attacks at the dams. besides. they would have to blow so many up before it would actually be effective that its useless lol

[hollyh88]

1 hour ago, Master Delta Chief said:

You put way too much faith on those dams and dikes. I know the Dutch are really good at creating land and managing water flow, but at one point it will become as good as impossible to hold the large amounts that will eventually build up in the Atlantic. Also, the fact that very recently a few areas down the southern region were flooded by the immense amount of rain shows how climate change has a detrimental effect on certain regions in the world. 

sorry but you are not correct.

i can put so much faith into it exactly because we are so good at it. not even good. we are THE BEST at it. and even if sea level would rise we still dont suffer from it. and there are already construction plans ready to go if we need to because of the sea. so dont worry i think the us has more to fear with floodings than we do. because after all we are already under the sea level. 

also, you are not wrong but also wrong about the issues in limburg. and belgium and germany. there was heavy rainfall indeed due to the difference in climate. But only because its too cold for the time of year. and the reason limburg has had issues due to the rain was only because well.. its hilly. they live ontop of a hill. and you know what happens when rain poors on a hill. yep it goes down exactly where the towns were. there were some issues as well around friesland but those were for other reasons not just 1 rainpoor. it was an issue there because of already the amount that was fallen over the year. 

neither of these have anything to do with the sea though, we will be fine for a long time still. 

[IkeaGnome]

17 minutes ago, JZStudios said:

I live in AZ, in the desert, so the batteries are more prone to overheating. The only other option in Alaska is biofuels, which are fucking stupid, or wind farms, which are also kind of dumb. Not sure how well they'll hold up to blizzards and the occasional hurricanes either.

We have a windfarm up here. Have for a while. If you actually prep it for cold temps they do very well.

https://www.eia.gov/state/analysis.php?sid=AK

There's a long excerpt I'm going to take from this, but I'll emphasize some smaller points.

Spoiler

In 2010, the Alaska legislature enacted a non-binding goal for 50% of the state's electricity to be generated from renewable and alternative energy sources by 2025.^89,90 In 2019, about 30% of Alaska's utility-scale electricity generation came from renewable energy sources, and about nine-tenths of those renewables was hydropower with much smaller amounts from wind and biomass.⁹¹ Utility-scale hydropower facilities are concentrated in southern Alaska, in mountainous regions with high annual rainfalls. Smaller run-of-river projects—which do not employ dams—produce power in some rural communities. Alaska is also exploring tidal and ocean technologies that could supply renewable energy to coastal communities.⁹² In addition, small-scale wind, biomass, and solar generation are found in many of the state's remote communities that want to reduce the use of petroleum products, which have high delivery costs, to generate electricity.

Wind resources are abundant along Alaska's coastline. Wind supplies about 8% of Alaska's utility-scale renewable generation, from more than 100 wind turbines with about 61 megawatts of generating capacity.^93,94,95,96 Wind farms are located primarily along the state's southern and western coasts and on the Railbelt grid.^97,98,99,100 Increasing numbers of small wind energy facilities, including some wind-diesel hybrid systems, provide power to off-grid rural communities throughout the state.¹⁰¹

Alaska's biomass fuels, which include wood, sawmill wastes, fish byproducts, and municipal waste, were used to generate most of the remaining 2% of Alaska's renewable power in 2019. The first large-scale biodiesel plant in the state opened in 2010 and can produce 250,000 gallons of biodiesel annually using waste vegetable oil gathered from local restaurants.^102,103,104 Wood is an important renewable energy resource for Alaskans, with more than 100,000 cords burned every year for residential space heating in one out of every 20 Alaskan households.^105,106 The state also has one wood pellet manufacturer, located near Fairbanks, that has a production capacity of 30,000 tons per year.^107,108 About 8 million gallons of fish oil are produced annually as a byproduct at Alaskan fishmeal plants; much of the fish oil is used as boiler fuel for drying the fishmeal or exported for livestock feed.¹⁰⁹

About 30% of our energy is renewable resources. Arizona sits at 14% (not picking on anything here, just relatable to you), Oregon is at about 66% (3/5ths according to EIA), California is at 36%, and New York 

Spoiler

Natural gas, nuclear power, and hydroelectricity together have provided more than nine-tenths of New York State’s electricity net generation since 2012, and other renewable resources have provided most of the rest.¹⁹ Five of the state’s 10 largest power plants by capacity are natural gas-fired, and more than half of New York’s generating capacity is at natural gas-fired power plants.^20,21 In 2019, natural gas fueled almost two-fifths of New York’s utility-scale (1 megawatt and larger) in-state generation.

Yes Alaska uses a lot of wood. However, the majority of our wood is supplemental heat. My winter heat comes from propane. I usually have that set at about 50F, 10C and then use wood to supplement. During our cold weeks, I'll have propane up at about 60F, then have wood and a diesel Toyo stove going. That keeps the house comfortable, but windows will still ice shut. 

Spoiler

Wind resources are abundant along Alaska's coastline. Wind supplies about 8% of Alaska's utility-scale renewable generation, from more than 100 wind turbines with about 61 megawatts of generating capacity.^93,94,95,96 Wind farms are located primarily along the state's southern and western coasts and on the Railbelt grid.^97,98,99,100 Increasing numbers of small wind energy facilities, including some wind-diesel hybrid systems, provide power to off-grid rural communities throughout the state.¹⁰¹

We don't solely rely on wind, but wind is growing here. If it can work here, it can work in other states. You just have to cold weather prep the turbines.

Spoiler

Smaller run-of-river projects—which do not employ dams—produce power in some rural communities. Alaska is also exploring tidal and ocean technologies that could supply renewable energy to coastal communities.⁹² In addition, small-scale wind, biomass, and solar generation are found in many of the state's remote communities that want to reduce the use of petroleum products, which have high delivery costs, to generate electricity.

There are villages here that have no jobs, no sewers, no running water. It's so expensive to live in them that renewables make sense to them. My old roommate worked in a village that uses run of river electricity. He was only out there on contract from ANTHC(which has a construction side. It uses state and federal funding to put sewage and running water into villages that don't have it). He went out after work one night. Got a small Digorno's, half gallon milk, half gallon of orange juice and 2 candy bars. Paid $47 or so. I've got a picture somewhere in an old phone he sent me of fueling up a work truck. Over $16 a gallon for gasoline. 

A lot of them for natural resources have food, water, and peat bog. Here's a picture for reference. This is a bigger village that has more...amenities..

Spoiler

Global warming is a big thing for a lot of these places. There's places that still rely on whales for food and oil for winter. 

https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/new-report-highlights-alaska’s-last-five-years-dramatic-climate

Which causes these situations. 

https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/rural-alaska/2019/10/19/a-western-alaska-village-long-threatened-by-erosion-and-flooding-begins-to-relocate/

Entire villages having to up and move. 

 

I kind of went off on a rant. I know I'm not perfect in emissions. I fly for work, work in mining, burn wood and diesel, and out of necessity I have a gas burning truck. That being said, I do what I can where I can. When I'm not home, heat is turned down to just above freezing etc. That being said, Make EVs available to us up here! Realistically, I could keep my truck for trips to Anchorage (about 200 miles round trip with no running around to stores) and use an EV for in town things. General store, post office etc.

[Kisai]

3 hours ago, AlwaysFSX said:

EU, USA, wouldn't doubt Canada is on that list too. Have you been blissfully ignorant on the news of EVs?

Certain states/provinces will stop sale of the vehicles, they likely won't be banned outright. So that requires everyone to play ball.

 

California always sets the standards for the North American continent, and Canada usually goes a little further after-the-fact.

 

Australia/NZ, no idea.

 

However I reasonably expect things are going to go like this:

2025 - All two-axle non-hybrids will not be permitted to be imported.

2030 - All vehicles under a certain size will be required to be full BEV. Large (eg 3/4 tonne (eg Ford F250, GM 2500, RAM 2500) vehicles will require a commercial vehicle driver's license (the same you'd need if the vehicle was a 10-person vehicle)

2035 - All but multi-axle vehicles will be required to be EV.

 

I don't reasonably see multi-axle vehicles being EV's. Not so much the power (EV's have far more power than an ICE), but the battery becomes unreasonably large and hard to keep cool with large vehicles, so what I actually see happening is a switch to biodiesel made from waste oils (which there is a LOT of out there) and these biodiesel fuels will be like 95% of all diesel.

 

The other possibility, I don't see hydrogen taking off (at least not for small vehicles) because it has no benefits that make it better than batteries. It might have more application in colder climates and long-distance uses, but the reason why hydrogen has largely been a non-thing is that it has all the same problems as petrol(gasoline) and diesel. Storage and transportation of the fuel. Most fuel-hydrogen being generated today uses natural gas.

 

Quote

Today, about 95% of all hydrogen is produced from steam reforming of natural gas.

 

Now, it may be possible that in the future, hydrogen fuel is simply generated from ocean water and *intense sarcasm* solve sea level rise in the process *end sarcasm*, but I kinda see this as something that goes along with desalinization and energy production at sea. eg it's far more likely that we will see hydrogen-fueled shipping at sea and car-ferries because there is no possibility of refueling or charging a ship in the middle of nowhere.

 

So ships might be equipped with some small-scale solar/wind generators to to operate steering thrusters or store the excess energy as hydrogen or in a battery while parked, but might only be refueled with hydrogen at a port for the trip.

 

Like, just to point it out, if a state or country brings in rules on carbon, ships and trains do not get a free pass. They might be delayed in switching over, but if they don't have a way to reduce their GHG while in port, they're going to be in trouble. Presently, Vancouver BC has a ShorePower system so that shipping ships/cruise-ships don't have to run their engines in port. This is apparently a booming industry.

 

Anyhow. The writing is on the wall for most GHG-producing vehicles. Gas stations are being replaced because the land they sit on is worth more to developers than operating a gas station is. Legislation in many places will soon make buying ICE vehicles more expensive than an EV, and businesses always want to punch pennies, and will likely cycle out vehicles for hybrid or EV-only vehicles as their leases are returned.

[poochyena]

4 hours ago, Distinctly Average said:

Most European governments for a start. Sales of new ICE cars will be banned by 2030 in many countries.

so no, no one is planning to ban gasoline cars. Europeans governments are not banning ICE cars by 2030.

[Kisai]

44 minutes ago, hollyh88 said:

no we do not. never in my 23 years have i heard anyone here be scared for terrorist attacks at the dams. besides. they would have to blow so many up before it would actually be effective that its useless lol

 

Hydro-electric dams aren't blown up, at least not the concrete portion without a demolition plan. Earth-fill dams however, all it takes the spillways to be stuck closed and the water goes over top of the dam and it erodes at the edges if it goes on long enough. However, there have been incidents where landslides BEHIND the dam displace the water in the reservoir. Remember a little while back about the Oroville dam? (California), that could have been so much worse had they delayed further. 

[Mark Kaine]

58 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

I'm an IT technician. I've got tools and other stuff in my car. If I'd have to change it every time I'm "charging", then I'd go insane.

Nope, no exceptions, you'll just need to organize better.

On top of it, it will of course also be a self driving car, humans are way too emotional and dangerous to let loose on our streets = ) 

[WihGlah]

This only applies if you buy the car and drive it until it drops. If you buy a  new car every 3 years, then your carbon footprint is WORSE with a BEV.

[Mark Kaine]

46 minutes ago, IkeaGnome said:

About 30% of our energy is renewable resources. Arizona sits at 14% (not picking on anything here, just relatable to you), Oregon is at about 66% (3/5ths according to EIA), California is at 36%

I kinda dont like the term "renewable" … you're still burning up stuff and putting pollutants into the atmosphere, it would be more interesting how much GHG emissions are reduced by using "renewables" if any. 

[IkeaGnome]

5 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

I kinda dont like the term "renewable" … you're still burning up stuff and putting pollutants into the atmosphere, it would be more interesting how much GHG emissions are reduced by using "renewables" if any. 

 Correct, but 

"and about nine-tenths of those renewables was hydropower with much smaller amounts from wind and biomass" 

8% of that is wind and 2% is biomass. Alaska does a lot better than people think..

[Mark Kaine]

9 minutes ago, IkeaGnome said:

 Correct, but 

"and about nine-tenths of those renewables was hydropower with much smaller amounts from wind and biomass" 

8% of that is wind and 2% is biomass. Alaska does a lot better than people think..

Good point, it really depends on what exactly the "renewable" energy is… hydro is great obviously (unless you're a salomon… ) but I think we cant produce enough energy for everyone this way, still, thats the thing, it needs to be specifed, if i hear "renewable" I automatically think "snakeoil" aka "biodiesel" and stuff (which is absolutely terrible for the environment)

[Master Delta Chief]

1 hour ago, hollyh88 said:

sorry but you are not correct.

i can put so much faith into it exactly because we are so good at it. not even good. we are THE BEST at it. and even if sea level would rise we still dont suffer from it. and there are already construction plans ready to go if we need to because of the sea. so dont worry i think the us has more to fear with floodings than we do. because after all we are already under the sea level. 

also, you are not wrong but also wrong about the issues in limburg. and belgium and germany. there was heavy rainfall indeed due to the difference in climate. But only because its too cold for the time of year. and the reason limburg has had issues due to the rain was only because well.. its hilly. they live ontop of a hill. and you know what happens when rain poors on a hill. yep it goes down exactly where the towns were. there were some issues as well around friesland but those were for other reasons not just 1 rainpoor. it was an issue there because of already the amount that was fallen over the year. 

neither of these have anything to do with the sea though, we will be fine for a long time still. 

https://magazines.rijksoverheid.nl/knmi/knmispecials/2019/03/gevolgen

 

Have a read on that article. People will be effected by the rising sea levels in the Netherlands. Although I will admit I probably have to correctify myself about the dikes and dams not able to hold off the water since the article doesn't immediately mention anything of it, that still doesn't mean the possibility is ruled out. Regardless, I am well aware that it is more hilly in the Eastern parts of the Benelux region. That wasn't the only reason it happened. With the rising sea levels, you will notice more of these types of storms in Europe and other places around the world. Like it or not, if you continue to ignore the warnings, you will suffer from it severely. 

[IkeaGnome]

28 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

Good point, it really depends on what exactly the "renewable" energy is… hydro is great obviously (unless you're a salomon… ) but I think we cant produce enough energy for everyone this way, still, thats the thing, it needs to be specifed, if i hear "renewable" I automatically think "snakeoil" aka "biodiesel" and stuff (which is absolutely terrible for the environment)

Or your state is smart enough to not dam salmon streams where possible. 

I think every form of energy has it's place if done correctly. I do think solar, wind, nuclear should be primary, but in reality if there's some backup somewhere that runs off oil, so be it. Solar could work up here, if we could have batteries that would also solve the EV problem up here. Temperature differential through the year. If batteries could stand up to that, we could set up solar, have it charge way more than we need during majority daylight times and use the stored for minority daylight. If that needs to be supplemented with hydro, avoid salmon streams. If it needs to be supplemented with nuclear, good luck up here. 

https://www.usgs.gov/news/magnitude-82-earthquake-alaska

https://earthquake.alaska.edu/earthquakes

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Quackers101 said:

maintenance free is a lie, any part can have issues and might need maintenance... (also if you are talking about EV in general or batteries)

if it's regular maintenance? maybe less to none. cables and eletric systems can still fail or need maintenance to software which is another can of worms.

Not to mention any part breaking or poor part added that will have issues, to get your car checked or towed.

It's really not a lie. You are digging for something that isn't there man.

 

Knowing and understanding the difference between maintenance and "yearly inspection points" and DOT legality.... 

 

But the point of maintenance, is FREQUENT checking of fluids and changing that which is recommended by the dealership of X vehicle.. By the OWNER of the vehicle. 

 

Just run yourselves a check list for internal combustion engine FILTER maintenance. NONE of this is required when owning EVs.

 

So. A yearly inspection according to DOT would be to check steering and suspension. 

 

LIGHTING should be looked at before and after each use of the vehicle. THIS is NOT maintenance. That's an inspection. 

 

So no. The electric system, such as battery cables are designed so the owner does NOTHING to them. They recommend certified technicians to deal with that. Because the average dummy, thinking this would be a maintenance issue, would likely KILL them selves performing "cable maintenance" (which I've never heard of BTW) and that would be that. The END.

[IkeaGnome]

5 minutes ago, ShrimpBrime said:

Just run yourselves a check list for internal combustion engine FILTER maintenance. NONE of this is required when owning EVs.

Spoiler

That's just the 20k maintenance on my F150. Granted that's for every 10k miles up to 60k where Ford wants..

Spoiler

Edit:

Added spoilers. Pictures were bigger than I thought.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, IkeaGnome said:

  Reveal hidden contents

That's just the 20k maintenance on my F150. Granted that's for every 10k miles up to 60k where Ford wants..

  Reveal hidden contents

Edit:

Added spoilers. Pictures were bigger than I thought.

Very good. 

 

Here's Tesla's Maintenance list for those just jumping into the thread.

 

https://www.tesla.com/support/car-maintenance

 

That's quite a different maintenance plan EV vs. ICE

[IkeaGnome]

1 minute ago, ShrimpBrime said:

Very good. 

 

Here's Tesla's Maintenance list for those just jumping into the thread.

 

https://www.tesla.com/support/car-maintenance

That first picture has side by side Ford and Tesla. 

Toyota is also known for being super reliable. I wonder how much they want...

Here's their 45k maintenance.

Spoiler

For those that think that's a lot, here's a preshift for one of our haul trucks. Our operators do this at the beginning of every shift. And the haul trucks are the simple ones to do.

If our operators can do that every day, there's no reason you can't check your lights and brakes every day.

[JZStudios]

4 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

We have a windfarm up here. Have for a while.

AZ's renewable energy comes in the form of inefficient solar and some biofuel plants, for far more people than Alaska. River and dam turbines make the most sense as it's a fairly constant supply of free energy.

I don't really know why you're bringing up isolated communities that would otherwise function the same without electricity as they have for the past couple hundred years. Alaska also has a miniscule population, and as you mentioned a lot of it isn't really hooked up so the "demand" currently is low. I have no problem with personal people cutting trees for winter, but using government subsidies to shut down more efficient and less pollutive power plants in favor of "renewable" biofuel plants where they raze forests is stupid.

 

See, personally I think garbage is a much bigger issue than co2 emissions, but no one really wants to talk about that, or the fact that the US realistically doesn't really recycle anything. We keep trying to sell it to everyone else and no one's buying it so we're literally stockpiling garbage. So even if companies did start making their products recyclable or bio-degradable, we still wouldn't be capable of actually doing it.

[Quackers101]

1 hour ago, ShrimpBrime said:

It's really not a lie. You are digging for something that isn't there man.

Knowing and understanding the difference between maintenance and "yearly inspection points" and DOT legality....

But the point of maintenance, is FREQUENT checking of fluids and changing that which is recommended by the dealership of X vehicle.. By the OWNER of the vehicle.

Just run yourselves a check list for internal combustion engine FILTER maintenance. NONE of this is required when owning EVs.

if you go by previous maintenance points of interest, can't one say that the computer/logic parts are not doing their maintenance, while it's not physical maintenance its some form of maintenance? Like checking the state of the battery, how it got to know which one to charge and adjust for bad cells (as explained in some of the tesla battery events). Also still, know a couple of of EV's that do need maintenance due to software problems, which again might need more maintenance when you start adding the line between automation and safety features that might need more checks than current EVs, cameras, other sensors, connecting to servers and if they get hacked or manipulated? etc etc.

[atxcyclist]

4 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

Nope, no exceptions, you'll just need to organize better.

On top of it, it will of course also be a self driving car, humans are way too emotional and dangerous to let loose on our streets = ) 

Just being 100% honest here, I believe very few people in the US would put up with all that. It’s for sure not going to happen for generations with all those mandates. Don’t underestimate our love of cars and motorcycles here in the US, we want our own vehicles and most of us want to operate our own vehicles.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Quackers101 said:

if you go by previous maintenance points of interest, can't one say that the computer/logic parts are not doing their maintenance, while it's not physical maintenance its some form of maintenance? Like checking the state of the battery, how it got to know which one to charge and adjust for bad cells (as explained in some of the tesla battery events). Also still, know a couple of of EV's that do need maintenance due to software problems, which again might need more maintenance when you start adding the line between automation and safety features that might need more checks than current EVs, cameras, other sensors, connecting to servers and if they get hacked or manipulated? etc etc.

OK so for instance a 2021 Freightliner Cascadia with Cruise control 2.0 has some 21 modules (computers) onboard. This is done all through the onboard network called multiplexing. There is absolutely no maintenance to this system aside updating the firmware which is not mandatory maintenance. Wires you don't repair until they are broken. Same thing for battery cables, but this is a 12v system. EV is quite a bit different. 

 

Although I could imagine people tracing the entire wiring harness for general maintenance. I would find it comical if there wasn't a symptom to look for.

 

Batteries. we havent topped off liquid in lead acid batteries for decades now. Battery maintenance is a thing of the past. The battery lasts x amount of time and you replace it. That's replacing a worn part. More of a repair. If you use duct tape, we can call it a fix.

 

We could consider fueling the vehicle maintenance, but I'm trying to be realistic with the idea of just simply checking the fluids and filter changes. General typical maintenance. Not all the stuff that require repair or replacement due to worn parts. I find worn parts on an inspection and consider this a repair. 

[mr moose]

12 hours ago, ShrimpBrime said:

Not sure what you people can't figure out here.

We can't figure out why you would claim the whole car does not need maintenance when clearly there are serious parts of it that do.  You cannot escape the fact that bearings, tyres, steering and brakes all need to be checked and maintained regardless whether the motor and batteries do or not.

 

Your marketing material is disingenuous, as I already pointed out.

 

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

We can't figure out why you would claim the whole car does not need maintenance when clearly there are serious parts of it that do.  You cannot escape the fact that bearings, tyres, steering and brakes all need to be checked and maintained regardless whether the motor and batteries do or not.

 

Your marketing material is disingenuous, as I already pointed out.

 

 

Checking something on a visual inspection you can call maintenance.

 

Replacement of a worn sealed wheel hub, Which btw has no maintenance of it's own until failure, is a repair.

 

I wonder how many guys at Jiffy Lube that did a regular oil change maintenance service actually lifted your vehicle to check a wheel hub. I bet probably none.